Re: Computing's Lost Allure

Discussion in 'C++' started by Peter de Vroomen, Jun 24, 2003.

  1. > >but that little
    > >piece of paper gives them clout over, for exapmle, a REAL genius with
    > >an IQ of 160 and years of experience.


    Damn, I'm not a REAL genius, my IQ is just a mere 150 or so :(.

    > One needs social oil in order to smooth out the little interpersonal
    > glitches that occur, and be able to keep working together. Without it,
    > things break down. And a bunch of employees in that state is useless.
    > Getting along with folk is a necessary thing in employment, it is one
    > of the required job skills.
    >
    > One thing industry hasn't figured out yet is how to make good use of
    > those who lack social skills.


    I think it's a lack of social skills of the industry that they can't make
    good use of those who lack social skills... But entrepreneurial people
    simply do not have the patience to interact with people who lack social
    skills. Imo, this is having a lack of social skills too.

    I think it's not having a lack of social skills that make things hard, I
    think it's narcisism that makes things go wrong. Entrepreneurs are generally
    just as narcisistic as the people he employs, but the entrepreneur does have
    social skills and his employees probably not. It's the narcisism that stops
    people from listening to each other.

    PeterV
     
    Peter de Vroomen, Jun 24, 2003
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Peter de Vroomen

    Bill Sloman Guest

    "Peter de Vroomen" <> wrote in message news:<3ef87470$0$49101$4all.nl>...
    > > >but that little
    > > >piece of paper gives them clout over, for exapmle, a REAL genius with
    > > >an IQ of 160 and years of experience.

    >
    > Damn, I'm not a REAL genius, my IQ is just a mere 150 or so :(.
    >
    > > One needs social oil in order to smooth out the little interpersonal
    > > glitches that occur, and be able to keep working together. Without it,
    > > things break down. And a bunch of employees in that state is useless.
    > > Getting along with folk is a necessary thing in employment, it is one
    > > of the required job skills.
    > >
    > > One thing industry hasn't figured out yet is how to make good use of
    > > those who lack social skills.

    >
    > I think it's a lack of social skills of the industry that they can't make
    > good use of those who lack social skills... But entrepreneurial people
    > simply do not have the patience to interact with people who lack social
    > skills. Imo, this is having a lack of social skills too.
    >
    > I think it's not having a lack of social skills that make things hard, I
    > think it's narcisism that makes things go wrong. Entrepreneurs are generally
    > just as narcisistic as the people he employs, but the entrepreneur does have
    > social skills and his employees probably not. It's the narcisism that stops
    > people from listening to each other.


    Nah. It boredom. When the entrepreneure starts sounding like a re-run
    of a Dilbert cartoon, I have to drink a *lot* of coffee if I'm to
    avoid the anti-social and insulting behaviour of going off to sleep.

    I have a similar sort of problem with engineers who won't explain why
    the detail problem they are tackling is relevant to the goal they are
    supposed to be pursueing, but mostly I've been allowed to harry them
    into explaining the background.

    ------
    Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
     
    Bill Sloman, Jun 24, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Peter de Vroomen

    Bill Sloman Guest

    "Don Kelly" <> wrote in message
    news:EV9Ka.277834$...
    >
    >
    >
    > "Bill Sloman" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > "Peter de Vroomen" <> wrote in message

    > news:<3ef87470$0$49101$4all.nl>...
    > > > > >but that little
    > > > > >piece of paper gives them clout over, for exapmle, a REAL genius

    with
    > > > > >an IQ of 160 and years of experience.
    > > >
    > > > Damn, I'm not a REAL genius, my IQ is just a mere 150 or so :(.
    > > >
    > > > > One needs social oil in order to smooth out the little interpersonal
    > > > > glitches that occur, and be able to keep working together. Without

    it,
    > > > > things break down. And a bunch of employees in that state is

    useless.
    > > > > Getting along with folk is a necessary thing in employment, it is

    one
    > > > > of the required job skills.
    > > > >
    > > > > One thing industry hasn't figured out yet is how to make good use of
    > > > > those who lack social skills.
    > > >
    > > > I think it's a lack of social skills of the industry that they can't
    > > > make good use of those who lack social skills... But entrepreneurial

    people
    > > > simply do not have the patience to interact with people who lack

    social
    > > > skills. Imo, this is having a lack of social skills too.
    > > >
    > > > I think it's not having a lack of social skills that make things hard,

    I
    > > > think it's narcisism that makes things go wrong. Entrepreneurs are
    > > > generally just as narcisistic as the people he employs, but the
    > > > entrepreneur does have social skills and his employees probably
    > > > not. It's the narcisism that stops people from listening to each

    other.
    > >
    > > Nah. It's boredom. When the entrepreneure starts sounding like a re-run
    > > of a Dilbert cartoon, I have to drink a *lot* of coffee if I'm to
    > > avoid the anti-social and insulting behaviour of going off to sleep.
    > >
    > > I have a similar sort of problem with engineers who won't explain why
    > > the detail problem they are tackling is relevant to the goal they are
    > > supposed to be pursueing, but mostly I've been allowed to harry them
    > > into explaining the background.
    > >
    > > ------
    > > Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

    > ---------
    > But aren't you using social skills to do so?
    > I know an engineering management person who put great emphasis on work

    ethic
    > and social skills. A good but not "brilliant " engineer who had to work

    for
    > all he learned and who was also able to get along with others on the team,
    > was worth far more (in most engineering companies) than a bright(?) star
    > who arrogantly pissed off everybody he contacted. I have seen both.


    If you are right about 90% of the time, you do get to be arrogant. You also
    learn that being polite and agreeable and suggesting that a duff circuit
    "might be improved by these minor changes" is a complete waste of time.

    Most "good but not brilliant enginers" can't see where their circuits are
    defective, or less than optimal, until they have built them, and are totally
    unwilling to junk a couple of days of work because some smart-arse suggests
    that there is a better way of doing it.

    You have to be pretty rude to get their attention at all, and persuade them
    that to persist in their present line of development will lead to them not
    only being fired for incompetence, but also becoming the laughing stock of
    the industry. This is not a nice way to behave.

    I found that I could get away with a few tantrums per year, if I was
    extravagantly helpful for the rest of the time, but it was always marginal.

    ------
    Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
     
    Bill Sloman, Jun 25, 2003
    #3
  4. Peter de Vroomen

    CBFalconer Guest

    Bill Sloman wrote:
    > "Don Kelly" <> wrote in message
    > >

    .... snip ...
    > >
    > > But aren't you using social skills to do so?
    > > I know an engineering management person who put great emphasis
    > > on work ethic and social skills. A good but not "brilliant "
    > > engineer who had to work for all he learned and who was also
    > > able to get along with others on the team, was worth far more
    > > (in most engineering companies) than a bright(?) star who
    > > arrogantly pissed off everybody he contacted. I have seen both.

    >
    > If you are right about 90% of the time, you do get to be
    > arrogant. You also learn that being polite and agreeable and
    > suggesting that a duff circuit "might be improved by these minor
    > changes" is a complete waste of time.


    Arrogance doesn't help. Sometime a quiet suggestion does. With
    other types[1] it simply engenders interior annoyance, and they
    look for a way to get revenge. Unfortunately you find this out
    about them after they have done their evil deeds, usually by
    playing politics. Luckily that kind of person is fairly rare.

    The major moral problem is whether or not to let sub-standard work
    go uncorrected, even if it not your direct responsibility. That
    has to depend highly on where that work is to be used, and your
    evaluation of the other guy.

    Positive knowledge may often be taken for arrogance.

    [1] of human? beings

    --
    Chuck F () ()
    Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
    <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> USE worldnet address!
     
    CBFalconer, Jun 26, 2003
    #4
  5. Peter de Vroomen

    Howard Chu Guest

    "CBFalconer" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Arrogance doesn't help. Sometime a quiet suggestion does.


    > Positive knowledge may often be taken for arrogance.


    Sad but true. People who don't know better often assert "this is open to
    interpretation" about points that are cut-and-dry facts. When faced with
    someone who *does* know better, they respond with "how arrogant" when they
    themselves are simply being aggressively ignorant.

    Reminds me of a time 7 years ago, talking to the DJ at a friend's wedding.
    We were talking about music by the Chieftains, and he was pronouncing the
    first syllable as in "chef" (sh-schwa sound) instead of as in "chief"
    (ch-long e). He was going on and on about how he loves the "chef-tens" and I
    finally said "you know, it's pronounced 'Chieftains'." He answered "well,
    I've heard it pronounced both ways." Since I had just performed with them a
    few months earlier I said "They pronounce it 'Chieftains' - I know, I've
    played with them." And of course, a friend who overheard this said to me "my
    god, how arrogant." I didn't believe it was arrogant to try to save someone
    from going through life with a misconception, or mispronouncing an extremely
    well known name in front of an audience that is extremely familiar with
    Irish music. In that case, the DJ ignored me. No big loss, aside from some
    raised eyebrows here and there.

    In my experience, neither "arrogance" (read - assertiveness) nor quiet
    suggestions ever help. In the face of persistent ignorance, nothing short of
    physical violence (slap in the face, at least) ever gets through. I've also
    had to work with people who are faced with an issue and say "I don't know
    enough to decide either way." I then tell them "I *know* this is how we
    should do it" and they repeat "I don't feel strongly either way." What they
    *should* do at that point is just say "OK" and shut up, we've already
    established that they are unqualified to make any kind of assertion. But
    these people are too clueless to even understand how clueless they are, and
    too ignorant to recognize real knowledge and facts when they're confronted
    with them.

    In this touchy-feely world of warm-and-fuzzy consensus, it's important to
    remember that not everything is a matter of opinion, sometimes there *are*
    wrong answers, and you should listen when someone tells you that you've got
    one. All the consensus in the world won't make feet equal to meters, or make
    2+2=5.

    What any of this has to do with the main thread, I don't know. But the
    comment about arrogance vs positive knowledge really sparked something...
    -- Howard Chu

    Chief Architect, Symas Corp. Director, Highland Sun

    http://www.symas.com http://highlandsun.com/hyc

    Symas: Premier OpenSource Development and Support
     
    Howard Chu, Jun 26, 2003
    #5
  6. Peter de Vroomen

    Paul Burke Guest

    Howard Chu wrote:
    > it's pronounced 'Chieftains'." He answered "well,
    > I've heard it pronounced both ways." Since I had just performed with them a
    > few months earlier I said "They pronounce it 'Chieftains' - I know, I've
    > played with them."


    Well I don't think that's arrogant, it's highly impressive! How many
    others in this group play Irish music to any standard? What do you play?
    I play flute and a bit of pipes, but the best name I can drop is that
    I played with Cathal McConnel at a festival many years ago! (Oh, and I
    vaguely knew old Des Donnelly- Dezi's uncle- before he died)

    Paul Burke
     
    Paul Burke, Jun 26, 2003
    #6
  7. Peter de Vroomen

    gswork Guest

    "Howard Chu" <> wrote in message news:<n4yKa.22139$Fy6.7947@sccrnsc03>...
    > "CBFalconer" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > Arrogance doesn't help. Sometime a quiet suggestion does.

    >
    > > Positive knowledge may often be taken for arrogance.

    >
    > Sad but true. People who don't know better often assert "this is open to
    > interpretation" about points that are cut-and-dry facts. When faced with
    > someone who *does* know better, they respond with "how arrogant" when they
    > themselves are simply being aggressively ignorant.
    >
    > Reminds me of a time 7 years ago, talking to the DJ at a friend's wedding.
    > We were talking about music by the Chieftains, and he was pronouncing the
    > first syllable as in "chef" (sh-schwa sound) instead of as in "chief"
    > (ch-long e). He was going on and on about how he loves the "chef-tens" and I
    > finally said "you know, it's pronounced 'Chieftains'."


    > -- Howard Chu
    >
    > Chief Architect, Symas Corp. Director, Highland Sun


    ^^^ Chef Architect ?

    Only Kidding! ;)

    >
    > http://www.symas.com http://highlandsun.com/hyc
    >
    > Symas: Premier OpenSource Development and Support
     
    gswork, Jun 26, 2003
    #7
  8. Paul Burke wrote:
    >
    > Howard Chu wrote:
    > > it's pronounced 'Chieftains'." He answered "well,
    > > I've heard it pronounced both ways." Since I had just performed with them a
    > > few months earlier I said "They pronounce it 'Chieftains' - I know, I've
    > > played with them."

    >
    > Well I don't think that's arrogant, it's highly impressive! How many
    > others in this group play Irish music to any standard?


    I play Irish music to an appalling standard.

    > What do you play?


    Guitar, keyboards, both well enough to convince a non-musician that I
    can play, and both badly enough to convince a musician that I can't.

    I'm better at guitar than at keyboards, I guess, which is why I often
    tell the computer to play the keyboards on my behalf.

    > I play flute and a bit of pipes, but the best name I can drop is that
    > I played with Cathal McConnel at a festival many years ago! (Oh, and I
    > vaguely knew old Des Donnelly- Dezi's uncle- before he died)


    Hmmm. I once danced with Maddy Prior at a Steeleye Span concert. Does
    that count? :)

    --
    Richard Heathfield :
    "Usenet is a strange place." - Dennis M Ritchie, 29 July 1999.
    C FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
    K&R answers, C books, etc: http://users.powernet.co.uk/eton
     
    Richard Heathfield, Jun 26, 2003
    #8
  9. Peter de Vroomen

    Howard Chu Guest

    "Richard Heathfield" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Paul Burke wrote:


    > > Well I don't think that's arrogant, it's highly impressive! How many
    > > others in this group play Irish music to any standard?

    >
    > I play Irish music to an appalling standard.


    Lol... I didn't know there *was* a standard...

    > > What do you play?


    Fiddle mostly, some mandolin, anything else tuned the same... I've wandered
    all over Ireland but I focus on Donegal repertoire.

    > Guitar, keyboards, both well enough to convince a non-musician that I
    > can play, and both badly enough to convince a musician that I can't.
    >
    > I'm better at guitar than at keyboards, I guess, which is why I often
    > tell the computer to play the keyboards on my behalf.


    Heh. Cheap trick. Though I've been thinking of getting a Zeta MIDI-fiddle
    for a while.

    > > I play flute and a bit of pipes, but the best name I can drop is that
    > > I played with Cathal McConnel at a festival many years ago! (Oh, and I
    > > vaguely knew old Des Donnelly- Dezi's uncle- before he died)

    >
    > Hmmm. I once danced with Maddy Prior at a Steeleye Span concert. Does
    > that count? :)


    If we're talking festivals and jam sessions, the list gets pretty long. Get
    to the Willie Clancy Festival in Clare and you can run into anyone/everyone.
    I met and played with Bobby Casey, PJ Hayes, & Junior Crehan there, as well
    as taking a workshop with Martin Hayes. I also first ran into Altan there,
    at the Crosses of Annagh pub one night. Was just jamming with Alasdair
    Fraser last week at a concert here in LA. (Yes, I like Scottish fiddle too.
    Scottish strathspeys and Donegal highlands are the ultimate, as far as I'm
    concerned...)

    And just to tie this into "computing's lost allure" - I used to spend all my
    spare time hacking on computers, until I discovered the fiddle. The one
    certainly pales in comparison to the other.
    -- Howard Chu http://www.highlandsun.com
     
    Howard Chu, Jun 27, 2003
    #9
  10. "Howard Chu" <> wrote:

    >I've also
    >had to work with people who are faced with an issue and say "I don't know
    >enough to decide either way." I then tell them "I *know* this is how we
    >should do it" and they repeat "I don't feel strongly either way." What they
    >*should* do at that point is just say "OK" and shut up, we've already
    >established that they are unqualified to make any kind of assertion. But
    >these people are too clueless to even understand how clueless they are, and
    >too ignorant to recognize real knowledge and facts when they're confronted
    >with them.


    The problem is in our culture. People are trained to never let anybody
    influence their minds, they will fight to the death for their own
    opinion, even if they don't have any.
    They are taught by the social environment as teenagers to never listen
    to advice or accept anybodies arguments, they see other people as
    enemies of their state of mind.

    The only thing they have respect for is violence.

    --
    Roger J.
     
    Roger Johansson, Jun 29, 2003
    #10
  11. Peter de Vroomen

    Bill Sloman Guest

    Roger Johansson <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > "Howard Chu" <> wrote:
    >
    > >I've also
    > >had to work with people who are faced with an issue and say "I don't know
    > >enough to decide either way." I then tell them "I *know* this is how we
    > >should do it" and they repeat "I don't feel strongly either way." What they
    > >*should* do at that point is just say "OK" and shut up, we've already
    > >established that they are unqualified to make any kind of assertion. But
    > >these people are too clueless to even understand how clueless they are, and
    > >too ignorant to recognize real knowledge and facts when they're confronted
    > >with them.

    >
    > The problem is in our culture. People are trained to never let anybody
    > influence their minds, they will fight to the death for their own
    > opinion, even if they don't have any.
    > They are taught by the social environment as teenagers to never listen
    > to advice or accept anybodies arguments, they see other people as
    > enemies of their state of mind.
    >
    > The only thing they have respect for is violence.


    Don't be silly. Any place I've worked, trying to influence anybody's
    opinion by violence would get you instantly fired. I've never seen it
    happen, but I have heard a few stories.

    What does get their attention, after the disaster, is comments of the
    form "This was predicted some time ago, on this basis. Now that we
    have verified the negative half of the prediction, can we get on and
    try and verify the positive half?"

    -------
    Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
     
    Bill Sloman, Jun 29, 2003
    #11
  12. On 29 Jun 2003 10:07:41 -0700, the renowned (Bill
    Sloman) wrote:

    >Don't be silly. Any place I've worked, trying to influence anybody's
    >opinion by violence would get you instantly fired. I've never seen it
    >happen, but I have heard a few stories.


    One of my classmates in Uni worked in a brick factory one summer. He
    did something on machine A, while other old unionized workers did
    other stuff downline. If he worked too fast, resulting in too much
    work for the downline workers, they would lob bricks at his head. He
    soon got the message to slow down and take it easy. ;-)

    Best regards,
    Spehro Pefhany
    --
    "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
    Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
    Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
     
    Spehro Pefhany, Jun 29, 2003
    #12
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. A. M. G. Solo
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    477
    A. M. G. Solo
    Feb 24, 2006
  2. int
    Replies:
    7
    Views:
    357
    Cowboy
    May 20, 2004
  3. =?Utf-8?B?U29sZWwgU29mdHdhcmU=?=

    Computing SQL nulls

    =?Utf-8?B?U29sZWwgU29mdHdhcmU=?=, Jul 29, 2004, in forum: ASP .Net
    Replies:
    7
    Views:
    347
    =?Utf-8?B?U29sZWwgU29mdHdhcmU=?=
    Jul 29, 2004
  4. optical supercomputing

    Optical Computing: special issue - Natural Computing, Springer

    optical supercomputing, Dec 19, 2008, in forum: C Programming
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    417
    optical supercomputing
    Dec 19, 2008
  5. optical supercomputing

    Optical Computing: special issue - Natural Computing, Springer

    optical supercomputing, Jan 16, 2009, in forum: C Programming
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    447
    optical supercomputing
    Jan 16, 2009
Loading...

Share This Page