Re: Could a single web framework popularize Python?

Discussion in 'Python' started by Ian Bicking, Oct 7, 2003.

  1. Ian Bicking

    Ian Bicking Guest

    On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 07:10 AM, Alex Martelli wrote:
    > Gilles Lenfant wrote:
    > ...
    >>> to be the most popular. Then, there's Twisted, which is (I'd say) the
    >>> dominant/most popular general-purpose networking framework for
    >>> Python.

    >>
    >> Twisted is *not* a web publishing framework. It's a low level protocol
    >> framework, in the same family of packages as Medusa.
    >> Or I missed something :eek:)

    >
    > Twisted comprises both lower and higher levels. E.g., see
    > http://www.twistedmatrix.com/services/twisted-advantage
    > and I quote:
    >
    > """
    > Publish a Web Site
    >
    > The twisted.web webserver is a scalable, small-footprint web server
    > that's
    > easy to configure. It's efficient enough to serve a high-traffic
    > website,
    > completely dynamic and reconfigureable on the fly, and simple enough to
    > configure that you can have it set up and running in just minutes after
    > you've downloaded it.
    > """


    Twisted is more like Apache or mod_python than a web framework. Woven
    is a framework built on top of Twisted, and the closest thing to The
    Twisted Web Framework.

    Working directly with Twisted is like writing Python CGI scripts.
    Sure, it works, but it's not a "framework". Of course, you can build a
    framework on top of it (and you probably will be accident if not
    intention).

    It gets confusing, though, because Twisted is both a specific program
    -- the Twisted server -- and a collection of tools and ideas, as well
    as an execution model (asynchronous) that becomes a defining aspect of
    Twisted. Woven's architecture is strongly influenced by the
    requirements of asynchronous programming. So while there's nothing
    keeping other frameworks from working on top of Twisted, Woven is one
    of the few (only?) that would really be Twisted style. And of course
    Woven is the only real framework included with the Twisted distribution.

    --
    Ian Bicking | | http://blog.ianbicking.org
    Ian Bicking, Oct 7, 2003
    #1
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  2. In article <>, Ian Bicking wrote:
    > On Tuesday, October 7, 2003, at 07:10 AM, Alex Martelli wrote:
    >> Twisted comprises both lower and higher levels. E.g., see
    >> http://www.twistedmatrix.com/services/twisted-advantage

    >
    > Twisted is more like Apache or mod_python than a web framework. Woven
    > is a framework built on top of Twisted, and the closest thing to The
    > Twisted Web Framework.
    >
    > Working directly with Twisted is like writing Python CGI scripts.
    > Sure, it works, but it's not a "framework". Of course, you can build a
    > framework on top of it (and you probably will be accident if not
    > intention).


    I guess it'd help to have a definition for what a web framework really is.
    When I was working with mod_python a lot, I definitely had some
    infrastructure to build, but it wasn't massive. It was basically a
    combination of the following:

    - database interface
    - session handling
    - cookie support (mostly already in the standard Python libs)
    - templating
    - publisher module (url->function mapping)
    - assorted libraries (xml, imaging, etc.)

    So, I'd say about half of the "framework" was available as Python libraries
    (either built-in or third-party), and the main gaping holes were session
    handling and templating. Since then, both of these are also available as
    third-party modules.

    Maybe Python doesn't have ONE_TRUE_FRAMEWORK because you have a choice in a
    lot of these different domains. Maybe that's a blessing in disguise. It does
    require that you think and actively make decisions about your architecture.

    Dave

    --
    ..:[ dave benjamin (ramenboy) -:- www.ramenfest.com -:- www.3dex.com ]:.
    : d r i n k i n g l i f e o u t o f t h e c o n t a i n e r :
    Dave Benjamin, Oct 8, 2003
    #2
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