Re: Developing for AWT/Swing and Android portability

Discussion in 'Java' started by Arne Vajhøj, Aug 14, 2013.

  1. On 8/14/2013 6:18 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
    > "Martin Gregorie" wrote in message news:kueih9$tfu$...
    >
    >> Are there any decent compatibility packages that would let a Java
    >> graphical application compile and run on both Linux and Android
    >> platforms?
    >>
    >> If not, are there any decent Android emulators that can be used to
    >> develop Android graphical apps under Linux?

    >
    > For what it's worth, *all* of my future UI/front-end code written in
    > Java will be using JavaFX. If you haven't checked it out yet then I
    > strongly suggest you do. It's actually quite awesome and if you have a
    > look at the session titles from this year's impending Java One and if
    > you follow the buzz in the JavaFX developer community you will be
    > convinced that it's only a matter of time until JavaFX will run on
    > Windows, MacOS, Linux, ARM and... iOS and Android in the very near future.
    >
    > Swing/AWT is officially deprecated and will slowly shrivel and die.


    I would not consider Swing deprecated until Java 8 gets officially
    released which will be another half year.

    > JavaFX is the way ahead and could easily become the *best*
    > cross-platform SDK in *any* language.


    JavaFX is very impressive.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Aug 14, 2013
    #1
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  2. On 8/14/2013 7:07 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
    > "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message
    > news:520c09d7$0$304$...
    >>> Swing/AWT is officially deprecated and will slowly shrivel and die.

    >>
    >> I would not consider Swing deprecated until Java 8 gets officially
    >> released which will be another half year.

    >
    > Oracle begs to differ.


    Really.

    Swing is still part of the Java Tutorial.

    And the Swing classes are not marked as deprecated in the Java Docs (and
    JavaFX is not even in there yet).

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Aug 15, 2013
    #2
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  3. Arne Vajhøj

    markspace Guest

    On 8/14/2013 4:53 PM, Qu0ll wrote:

    > Everything you say is correct Arne but several Oracle representatives
    > have either blogged or tweeted or been involved in forum discussions
    > where it has been made abundantly clear that no further development on
    > Swing will occur and there is significant doubt as to whether any bugs
    > will be addressed either.


    Could you link to those? I can Google myself of course but I'd like to
    see what you are looking at too. I'm not doubting you, I seem to recall
    the same thing. However I don't have anything ready to hand and I'd
    like to see those blogs again if I could.
     
    markspace, Aug 15, 2013
    #3
  4. On 8/14/2013 7:53 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
    > "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message
    > news:520c120a$0$304$...
    >> Really.
    >>
    >> Swing is still part of the Java Tutorial.
    >>
    >> And the Swing classes are not marked as deprecated in the Java Docs (and
    >> JavaFX is not even in there yet).

    >
    > Everything you say is correct Arne but several Oracle representatives
    > have either blogged or tweeted or been involved in forum discussions
    > where it has been made abundantly clear that no further development on
    > Swing will occur and there is significant doubt as to whether any bugs
    > will be addressed either.


    That is true.

    They will not invest more in Swing.

    But I believe there is a difference between stopping
    investing in and deprecating.

    There must be plenty of packages/classes in Java SE that has seen
    little development for many years without them being in any way
    deprecated.

    > People can still learn about Swing in the tutorial because it is
    > everywhere and will be in use in production systems for many years to
    > come. My point is that Swing/AWT/applets are not something that I would
    > recommend as the choice for *new* development. There has been no
    > official deprecation in a "Java API" sense but all of Oracle's
    > investment in Java UI technologies is in regard to JavaFX.


    If I were to recommend something for cross-platform desktop
    app, then I would recommend JavaFX.

    I am not sure though that I would do the same for a
    single-platform desktop app. JavaFX may be conceptually
    as good as the alternatives, but it it is still far behind
    in adoption, which impact the level of support available.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Aug 15, 2013
    #4
  5. On 8/15/2013 1:10 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
    > "markspace" wrote in message news:kuh9j2$3rk$...
    >
    >> Could you link to those? I can Google myself of course but I'd like
    >> to see what you are looking at too. I'm not doubting you, I seem to
    >> recall the same thing. However I don't have anything ready to hand
    >> and I'd like to see those blogs again if I could.

    >
    > I haven't been keeping bookmarks or links to said posts etc. but I have
    > certainly seen them and I am sure you can located many such references
    > with your Google foo-ness.
    >
    > I cannot point you to an "official" Oracle announcement on this matter
    > but it is clear from the following facts that Swing is not something you
    > should be considering for new projects:
    >
    > 1) Oracle (as far as I know) have not made any announcements about
    > Swing's further development in a long, long time.
    > 2) Oracle are announcing JavaFX development news on an almost daily basis.
    > 3) Many, many Swing/AWT bugs languish in the bug database untouched for
    > years.
    > 4) I work a lot with Java 8 and, as far as I know but prefaced by the
    > fact that I am not actually looking or interested, I have not heard of
    > any Swing enhancements in this release.
    > 5) JavaFX is considerably enhanced in Java 8.
    > 6) Oracle are actively promoting JavaFX.
    > 7) The JavaFX community is vibrant, active and passionate.
    > 8) Swing will (almost certainly) will never run on mobiles and tablets
    > whereas JavaFX definitely will (watch for Java One announcements in this
    > area).
    > 9) JavaFX can do things that Swing could never and will never do (even
    > if you just look at the fact that JavaFX has a hardware accelerated
    > pipeline).
    >
    > There can be no doubt that Oracle has no interest in taking Swing any
    > further but of course will continue to support it given that it is a
    > critical and widely-used component of the JDK, especially for those with
    > commercial contracts with Oracle.


    http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javafx/overview/faq-1446554.html#6

    <quote>
    6. Is JavaFX replacing Swing as the new client UI library for Java SE?
    Yes. However, Swing will remain part of the Java SE specification for
    the foreseeable future, and therefore included in the JRE. While we
    recommend developers to leverage JavaFX APIs as much as possible when
    building new applications, it is possible to extend a Swing application
    with JavaFX, allowing for a smoother transition.
    </quote>

    May be the most official statement.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Aug 16, 2013
    #5
  6. On 8/15/2013 1:23 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
    > "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message
    > news:520c2d96$0$290$...
    >> That is true.
    >>
    >> They will not invest more in Swing.
    >>
    >> But I believe there is a difference between stopping
    >> investing in and deprecating.
    >>
    >> There must be plenty of packages/classes in Java SE that has seen
    >> little development for many years without them being in any way
    >> deprecated.

    >
    > Arne, please see my reply to markspace that contains clarification of my
    > usage of the term "deprecated".


    But your usage is somewhat different from normal usage
    in Java context.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Aug 16, 2013
    #6
  7. On 8/15/2013 1:23 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
    > "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message
    > news:520c2d96$0$290$...
    >> If I were to recommend something for cross-platform desktop
    >> app, then I would recommend JavaFX.
    >>
    >> I am not sure though that I would do the same for a
    >> single-platform desktop app. JavaFX may be conceptually
    >> as good as the alternatives, but it it is still far behind
    >> in adoption, which impact the level of support available.

    >
    > Yes, it is absolutely true that Swing is everywhere and adoption of
    > JavaFX is not at that level - yet.


    The alternatives I was referring to are non-Java.

    > But Oracle have told me that most of
    > the large sites where JavaFX is being used are behind "corporate
    > firewalls" and are not the sort of applications that can be publicised
    > on the net or have demos made available to the general public. There
    > actually are quite of lot of corporations and individuals who are
    > investing heavily in JavaFX right now.


    "It is widely used, but the details are not public" is not that
    convincing.

    But even if more than half the companies doing desktop apps in
    Java are switching from Swing to JavaFX, then it would still
    not be many.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Aug 16, 2013
    #7
  8. On 8/15/2013 8:45 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    > On 8/15/2013 1:23 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
    >> "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message
    >> news:520c2d96$0$290$...
    >>> If I were to recommend something for cross-platform desktop
    >>> app, then I would recommend JavaFX.
    >>>
    >>> I am not sure though that I would do the same for a
    >>> single-platform desktop app. JavaFX may be conceptually
    >>> as good as the alternatives, but it it is still far behind
    >>> in adoption, which impact the level of support available.

    >>
    >> Yes, it is absolutely true that Swing is everywhere and adoption of
    >> JavaFX is not at that level - yet.

    >
    > The alternatives I was referring to are non-Java.
    >
    >> But Oracle have told me that most of
    >> the large sites where JavaFX is being used are behind "corporate
    >> firewalls" and are not the sort of applications that can be publicised
    >> on the net or have demos made available to the general public. There
    >> actually are quite of lot of corporations and individuals who are
    >> investing heavily in JavaFX right now.

    >
    > "It is widely used, but the details are not public" is not that
    > convincing.
    >
    > But even if more than half the companies doing desktop apps in
    > Java are switching from Swing to JavaFX, then it would still
    > not be many.


    A search at dice.com finds:

    * 2769 JSP jobs
    * 423 Swing jobs
    * 7 JavaFX jobs
    * 940 WPF jobs
    * 300 WinForms jobs
    * 290 Cocoa jobs

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Aug 16, 2013
    #8
  9. Please don't discuss the outside world

    On 8/15/2013 7:07 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
    > "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message
    >>
    >> JavaFX is very impressive.

    >
    > Indeed. Far more impressive than most people actually realise and with
    > JFX8 coming soon we will have 3D and other truly awesome features.


    Wow 3D, awesome! Who'd have thunk it.
    >
    > --
    > And loving it,
    >
    > -Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
    > _________________________________________________
    >
    > [Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me]
     
    Richard Maher, Aug 16, 2013
    #9
  10. On 8/16/2013 8:49 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    > On 8/15/2013 8:45 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    >> On 8/15/2013 1:23 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
    >>> "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message
    >>> news:520c2d96$0$290$...
    >>>> If I were to recommend something for cross-platform desktop
    >>>> app, then I would recommend JavaFX.
    >>>>
    >>>> I am not sure though that I would do the same for a
    >>>> single-platform desktop app. JavaFX may be conceptually
    >>>> as good as the alternatives, but it it is still far behind
    >>>> in adoption, which impact the level of support available.
    >>>
    >>> Yes, it is absolutely true that Swing is everywhere and adoption of
    >>> JavaFX is not at that level - yet.

    >>
    >> The alternatives I was referring to are non-Java.
    >>
    >>> But Oracle have told me that most of
    >>> the large sites where JavaFX is being used are behind "corporate
    >>> firewalls" and are not the sort of applications that can be publicised
    >>> on the net or have demos made available to the general public. There
    >>> actually are quite of lot of corporations and individuals who are
    >>> investing heavily in JavaFX right now.

    >>
    >> "It is widely used, but the details are not public" is not that
    >> convincing.
    >>
    >> But even if more than half the companies doing desktop apps in
    >> Java are switching from Swing to JavaFX, then it would still
    >> not be many.

    >
    > A search at dice.com finds:
    >
    > * 2769 JSP jobs
    > * 423 Swing jobs
    > * 7 JavaFX jobs
    > * 940 WPF jobs
    > * 300 WinForms jobs
    > * 290 Cocoa jobs


    No Apex, Application Express? Isn't that the other Strategic Direction
    for Oracle Web Apps?

    >
    > Arne
    >
    >
     
    Richard Maher, Aug 16, 2013
    #10
  11. On 8/16/2013 5:11 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
    > "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message
    > news:520d7717$0$294$...
    >
    >> A search at dice.com finds:
    >>
    >> * 2769 JSP jobs
    >> * 423 Swing jobs
    >> * 7 JavaFX jobs
    >> * 940 WPF jobs
    >> * 300 WinForms jobs
    >> * 290 Cocoa jobs

    >
    > I don't find this the slightest bit surprising. GUI applications
    > written in Java are far less prevalent than those written using other
    > technologies. The vast majority of Java software is server oriented (my
    > guess would be over 95%).


    That was my point.

    > But that figure for Swing is not too shabby and similar figures could be
    > achieved for JavaFX in a couple of years or so.


    That would be my expectation as well.

    And for multi platform support then JavaFX looks great.

    But if you are in a Windows only env, then WPF is a bit
    attractive.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Aug 17, 2013
    #11
  12. On 8/16/2013 5:09 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
    > "Arne Vajhøj" wrote in message
    > news:520d7617$0$296$...
    >
    >> "It is widely used, but the details are not public" is not that
    >> convincing.
    >>
    >> But even if more than half the companies doing desktop apps in
    >> Java are switching from Swing to JavaFX, then it would still
    >> not be many.

    >
    > I have to disagree with you on that point. My impression (which I can
    > in no way substantiate) is that there are many thousands of applications
    > written in Swing in use in corporations and businesses around the world
    > to this day.


    That sounds very plausible.

    But I don't consider that to be many.

    :)

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Aug 17, 2013
    #12
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