Re: Does anyone else wish the C++ standards committee would give usparity with other programming lan

Discussion in 'C++' started by Anonymous Infidel, Mar 27, 2009.

  1. > >Or better yet, force them(C#, Java, etc) to do the catch up game....
    >
    > Might be useful if you would clarify what in your mind is making the
    > C++ language trail behind these other languages.

    Simple...That would be all the things they can do that C++ can't.

    Note: You can use Google to see the differences between C++ and other
    programming languages.
     
    Anonymous Infidel, Mar 27, 2009
    #1
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  2. Re: Does anyone else wish the C++ standards committee would giveus parity with other programming languages?

    Anonymous Infidel wrote:
    > Simple...That would be all the things they can do that C++ can't.


    If C++ is not doing what you want, then the answer to this problem is
    also rather simple: Don't use C++.

    Stop bitching and trolling.
     
    Juha Nieminen, Mar 27, 2009
    #2
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  3. Anonymous Infidel

    Guest

    On Mar 27, 1:50 pm, Juha Nieminen <> wrote:
    > Anonymous Infidel wrote:
    > > Simple...That would be all the things they can do that C++ can't.

    >
    >   If C++ is not doing what you want, then the answer to this problem is
    > also rather simple: Don't use C++.
    >


    That may be the answer in some cases, but I'm not sure it's
    a very good answer in other cases. Java has some strengths
    in terms of reflection and marshalling support that C++
    doesn't have. Both languages have their strengths and
    weaknesses -- Java in my opinion has more than it's fair
    share of weaknesses, but C++ has some weaknesses as well
    also. What if you need to write a scientific application
    that needs to send and receive a lot of messages? It would
    be helpful to have the strengths of C++ and Java for that
    application.

    Brian Wood
    Ebenezer Enterprises
    www.webEbenezer.net
     
    , Mar 27, 2009
    #3
  4. > > Simple...That would be all the things they can do that C++ can't.
    >
    >   If C++ is not doing what you want

    It does...
    Thx to companies, like Microsoft, coming up with their own proprietary
    crap.
    Thx to the fact that we can use the other languages within our
    program.
    Thx to the fact that we can do asm within our code.
    Etc, etc, etc. [It would be grand if we could just do everything
    directly using C++]
    >
    >  Stop bitching

    Sadly, that is all we got.

    Eww, the standards committee is going to standardise support for
    multithreaded programming...Yipeee. [We should have had that how many
    years ago?]
    >
    > and trolling.

    I did no such thing.

    Note: I love C++...it just frustrates me on how I have to use the
    above methods to get things done. Don't you feel the same way Juha?
     
    Anonymous Infidel, Mar 27, 2009
    #4
  5. Anonymous Infidel

    Arne Mertz Guest

    Re: Does anyone else wish the C++ standards committee would giveus parity with other programming languages?

    schrieb:
    > What if you need to write a scientific application
    > that needs to send and receive a lot of messages? It would
    > be helpful to have the strengths of C++ and Java for that
    > application.
    >


    You'll have to search a third language that has the strengths that
    you really need - and perhaps some weaknesses that neither Java nor
    C++ have.

    The problem is: some things that could be considered weaknesses in a
    certain context/with respect to a certain application you want to
    code, are strengths in other contexts/applications. There is no
    means to have a perfect language, so in most cases there is no sense
    in wanting your favourite feature of other languages in C++ (or Java).
    The standards committee won't ever give us parity with other
    programming languages WRT automatic memory management, e.g. garbage
    collectors and all that stuff that make Java & Co. so "easy to use".
    They won't because C++ is not designed to have GC. Its not a bug,
    its a feature that we must/can manage the free stor ourselves.

    At any time there are lots of people complaining about "flaws" that
    C++ has and that should be correctet - not realizing that
    "correcting" these flaws would cut away some basic features of the
    language.
    Sure, there are things that could be done better. And the committee
    is working hard to get them done better. And we _are_ given parity
    with other languages, in many areas C++ is even doing better than
    most other languages. In other areas, the other languages are doing
    better than C++.

    Arne
     
    Arne Mertz, Mar 27, 2009
    #5
  6. Anonymous Infidel

    James Kanze Guest

    On Mar 27, 6:55 pm, Anonymous Infidel <> wrote:
    > > >Or better yet, force them(C#, Java, etc) to do the catch up game....


    > > Might be useful if you would clarify what in your mind is making the
    > > C++ language trail behind these other languages.


    > Simple...That would be all the things they can do that C++ can't.


    Which are? And what about all the things you can do in C++ that
    you can't do in Java.

    > Note: You can use Google to see the differences between C++
    > and other programming languages.


    Who needs to? Most of us have actively programmed in several
    different languages. Including some of the newer ones, like
    Java or C#.

    --
    James Kanze (GABI Software) email:
    Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
    Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
    9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34
     
    James Kanze, Mar 28, 2009
    #6
  7. Anonymous Infidel

    James Kanze Guest

    On Mar 27, 10:09 pm, Arne Mertz <> wrote:
    > schrieb:


    > The problem is: some things that could be considered
    > weaknesses in a certain context/with respect to a certain
    > application you want to code, are strengths in other
    > contexts/applications.


    The problem is, exactly, that one size doesn't fit all.

    > There is no means to have a perfect language, so in most cases
    > there is no sense in wanting your favourite feature of other
    > languages in C++ (or Java). The standards committee won't
    > ever give us parity with other programming languages WRT
    > automatic memory management, e.g. garbage collectors and all
    > that stuff that make Java & Co. so "easy to use".


    I wouldn't bet on garbage collectors. The committee has voted
    in favor of them, although for schedule considerations, not
    right away.

    > They won't because C++ is not designed to have GC. Its not a
    > bug, its a feature that we must/can manage the free stor
    > ourselves.


    Not really. It's a feature that we *can* manage it ourselves,
    when appropriate. But the basic philosophy of C++ is to give
    the programmer the choice, which means garbage collection when
    appropriate.

    > At any time there are lots of people complaining about "flaws"
    > that C++ has and that should be correctet - not realizing that
    > "correcting" these flaws would cut away some basic features of
    > the language.


    Or break backwards compatibility. The biggest "flaw" C++ has is
    a totally broken declaration syntax, which leads to all sorts of
    ambiguities and problems. It inherited that flaw from C, and
    anything which might fix it would probably also break all, or
    almost all existing code.

    --
    James Kanze (GABI Software) email:
    Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
    Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
    9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34
     
    James Kanze, Mar 28, 2009
    #7
  8. > > > >Or better yet, force them(C#, Java, etc) to do the catch up game....
    > > > Might be useful if you would clarify what in your mind is making the
    > > > C++ language trail behind these other languages.

    > > Simple...That would be all the things they can do that C++ can't.

    >
    > Which are?  And what about all the things you can do in C++ that
    > you can't do in Java.

    Read what I said about Google.
    >
    > > Note: You can use Google to see the differences between C++
    > > and other programming languages.

    >
    > Who needs to?

    Clearly you do...Seeing as how you asked the question above.
    >
    > Most of us

    So you speak for everyone now? [When was that vote held?]
    >
    > have actively programmed in several
    > different languages.  Including some of the newer ones, like
    > Java or C#.

    Then why did you ask me what the differences were above?

    Have a nice day.
     
    Anonymous Infidel, Mar 29, 2009
    #8
  9. Anonymous Infidel

    James Kanze Guest

    On Mar 29, 7:20 am, Anonymous Infidel <> wrote:
    > > > > >Or better yet, force them(C#, Java, etc) to do the
    > > > > >catch up game....
    > > > > Might be useful if you would clarify what in your mind
    > > > > is making the C++ language trail behind these other
    > > > > languages.
    > > > Simple...That would be all the things they can do that C++ can't.


    > > Which are? And what about all the things you can do in C++
    > > that you can't do in Java.


    > Read what I said about Google.


    In other words, you don't know of any.

    As I said, I've yet to find anything important that I could do
    in Java that I couldn't do in C++, and I've extensive experience
    in both languages. (There is perhaps one exception: reflection.
    But other than creating a class, given its name, I've not found
    that much use for it. And while it takes more work in C++ to
    create an instance of a class, given its name, the results are
    more robust.)

    > > > Note: You can use Google to see the differences between
    > > > C++ and other programming languages.


    > > Who needs to?


    > Clearly you do...Seeing as how you asked the question above.


    Clearly I don't, since you can't site any counter examples (even
    if you've used Java).

    > > Most of us


    > So you speak for everyone now? [When was that vote held?]


    I'm speaking about the people who post regularly here. I don't
    know of any experienced C++ programmer who isn't competent in
    several other languages as well.

    > > have actively programmed in several
    > > different languages. Including some of the newer ones, like
    > > Java or C#.


    > Then why did you ask me what the differences were above?


    I didn't ask what the differences were; I know what the
    differences are (and why we continue to use C++ for most serious
    applications, rather than Java or C#). You claimed that there
    were things you could do in Java, but not in C++. I asked you
    to back up that claim. Obviously, you can't.

    --
    James Kanze (GABI Software) email:
    Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
    Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
    9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34
     
    James Kanze, Mar 29, 2009
    #9
  10. Re: Does anyone else wish the C++ standards committee would give us parity with other programming languages?

    Hi,

    > As I said, I've yet to find anything important that I could do
    > in Java that I couldn't do in C++, and I've extensive experience
    > in both languages.


    I'd say, e.g. writing web applications in C++ is a bit more difficult than
    just hacking a servlet. Of course it is not impossible, but it is hard
    compared to Java. On the other hand hacking a servlet is more complicated
    than hacking a PHP script and PHP nowadays is powerfull enough to even crete
    bigger web applications.

    So this is just an type of application where I wouldn't prefer to use C++ at
    the moment.

    > You claimed that there
    > were things you could do in Java, but not in C++. I asked you
    > to back up that claim. Obviously, you can't.


    Of course it is enough to know, that C++ is turing complete. I guess his
    point was more on things that are a lot easier to do in Java than in C++.
    Other things apart from web applications that come to my mind are the more
    or less standardized OR-mapper (JDO), an aspect oriented framework for
    enterprise applications (spring), a standardized, platform independent UI
    library (Swing, I guess Qt could fill that gap), etc.

    I don't think, all of this should be in the standard, because in my oppinion
    it doesn't belong there. But a set of libraries and frameworks that are
    close to the standard, like the boost libraries, could help. Actually being
    not close to the standard library is in my oppinion the worst drawback of
    Qt.

    Christof
     
    Christof Donat, Mar 29, 2009
    #10
  11. > > > > > >Or better yet, force them(C#, Java, etc) to do the
    > > > > > >catch up game....
    > > > > > Might be useful if you would clarify what in your mind
    > > > > > is making the C++ language trail behind these other
    > > > > > languages.
    > > > > Simple...That would be all the things they can do that C++ can't.
    > > > Which are?  And what about all the things you can do in C++
    > > > that you can't do in Java.

    > > Read what I said about Google.

    >
    > In other words, you

    Could name several...Only to have you come back and go nut-unh and
    point to some library that uses asm hacks, microsoft proprietary crap,
    etc, etc, etc. [Then I would have to point out that it's nonstandard
    and not part of C++(which is what we were discussing)]
    >
    > > > > Note: You can use Google to see the differences between
    > > > > C++ and other programming languages.
    > > > Who needs to?

    > > Clearly you do...Seeing as how you asked the question above.

    >
    > Clearly I don't

    Since any C++ expert would know what C++s limitations and strengths
    are.
    >
    > > > Most of us

    > > So you speak for everyone now? [When was that vote held?]

    >
    > I'm speaking about the people

    You're speaking about some Imaginary people who are on your side in a
    weak attempt to use peer pressure to win a game I'm not playing.
    >
    > > > have actively programmed in several
    > > > different languages.  Including some of the newer ones, like
    > > > Java or C#.

    > > Then why did you ask me what the differences were above?

    >
    > I didn't ask what the differences were; I know what the
    > differences are

    *yawn* You're a bipolar jackass looking for a fight where there is
    none.


    Good day to you sir.
     
    Anonymous Infidel, Mar 29, 2009
    #11
  12. Anonymous Infidel

    James Kanze Guest

    On Mar 29, 2:07 pm, Christof Donat <> wrote:

    > > As I said, I've yet to find anything important that I could
    > > do in Java that I couldn't do in C++, and I've extensive
    > > experience in both languages.


    > I'd say, e.g. writing web applications in C++ is a bit more
    > difficult than just hacking a servlet.


    And I'd agree. But it's not a language problem, and probably
    not even a library problem. The existing infrastructure in web
    servers is designed to support Java; it's not designed to
    support any compiled language. If there were a demand for it,
    it probably wouldn't be that hard to implement a server which
    supported C++, but typically, the code the server addresses
    directly consists of a lot of small, constantly changing modules
    (Java beans)---something where the weaknesses of Java aren't
    really significant.

    > Of course it is not impossible, but it is hard compared to
    > Java. On the other hand hacking a servlet is more complicated
    > than hacking a PHP script and PHP nowadays is powerfull enough
    > to even crete bigger web applications.


    Whatever happened to JSP?

    > So this is just an type of application where I wouldn't prefer
    > to use C++ at the moment.


    There are lots of applications where I choose some other
    language; I've probably written more lines of AWK or Bourne
    shell in the last year or two than C++. And if I were doing a
    lightweight GUI client, I'd probably choose Java, simply because
    Swing seems better than either wxWidgets or Qt. (Admittedly,
    that might be mainly because I know it better, but the little
    bit I've seen of wxWidgets hasn't impressed me, and I don't
    really like Qt's policy of an additional preprocessor.) Also,
    it's the type of application where Java's portability of
    compiled code could be an advantage. Of course, all of this is
    perfectly possible in C++: the GUI libraries are there, and
    there's certainly nothing to stop a vendor from implementing C++
    in a VM. (And portability isn't always an issue---more than a
    few companies standardize on Windows on a PC for their client
    machines.)

    > > You claimed that there were things you could do in Java, but
    > > not in C++. I asked you to back up that claim. Obviously,
    > > you can't.


    > Of course it is enough to know, that C++ is turing complete.


    Yes and no. I considered pointing that out, but I think that
    there's a real sense that it's irrelevant. Java is also Turing
    complete, but there are more than a few things that you can't
    write in Java. Turing complete only concerns the actual
    calculations---the fact that a language is Turing complete
    doesn't necessarily mean that you'll be able to write device
    drivers in it, for example. (And of course, you can't write the
    kernel code which does the context switching in either Java or
    C++.)

    > I guess his point was more on things that are a lot easier to
    > do in Java than in C++.


    His point is not at all clear. My postings have tried to make
    him make it clear, by asking him what he means---what can you do
    in Java that you cannot do in C++, or at least, what does he
    have in mind. Especially given his mention in the header of the
    standards committee: the standards committee doesn't address
    larger environment issues; there's nothing that the standards
    committee could do, for example, to force web servers to give
    C++ the same level of support they give Java.

    There are certainly cases where other languages are to be
    preferred; as I said, I've probably written more lines of Bourne
    shell and AWk than C++ recently. But I fail to see any "lack of
    parity", nor anything that the committee can or should do in
    this respect. There are some important pieces missing: C++
    doesn't have a decent module system. But then, Java (and C#?)
    are even worse in this respect; using header files, you can at
    least fake it in C++. And it would certainly help if garbage
    collection were standand, rather than a third party library, and
    threading did come a bit late---doubtlessly due to aleas of the
    schedule. It was too soon to add it in the last version of the
    standard, which means effectively waiting 10 years. But it's
    quite possible to use garbage collection or threading in C++
    today---a fair number of people use garbage collection, and I'd
    guess that most use threading. In theory, both require some
    support from the standard, but in practice, all of the existing
    implementations do avoid things that would prevent them from
    working, even if the standard doesn't require it.

    --
    James Kanze (GABI Software) email:
    Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
    Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
    9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34
     
    James Kanze, Mar 30, 2009
    #12
  13. Re: Does anyone else wish the C++ standards committee would give us parity with other programming languages?

    Hi,

    > On Mar 29, 2:07 pm, Christof Donat <> wrote:
    >
    >> > As I said, I've yet to find anything important that I could
    >> > do in Java that I couldn't do in C++, and I've extensive
    >> > experience in both languages.

    >
    >> I'd say, e.g. writing web applications in C++ is a bit more
    >> difficult than just hacking a servlet.

    >
    > And I'd agree. But it's not a language problem, and probably
    > not even a library problem. The existing infrastructure in web
    > servers is designed to support Java;


    No. Most installed web servers use apache as server software. Apache doesn't
    support java without any additional modules and an external server process,
    but apache supports C modules without any changes. It is a problem of the
    API. The apache module API is - well - a bit more complicated thant the
    servlet API.

    I agree with you, that it is not a language problem, but I think it is a
    library problem.

    > it's not designed to support any compiled language.


    Well, C is a compiled language, isn't it? Apart from the apache module
    interface the CGI interface as well as the FastCGI Interfacce is completely
    language agnostic. You could even write CGI scripts in Java - just that it
    will start the whole VM for every request. The difference is that scripting
    languages like Perl, Python or Ruby come with an API that supports easy
    writing of portable CGI applications.

    > If there were a demand for it,
    > it probably wouldn't be that hard to implement a server which
    > supported C++,


    Web developers care much about not binding themselves to a speciffic
    implementation. Java servlets work with any servlet container, not just
    tomcat. CGI scripts written in Perl work anywehere where a Perl interpreter
    is available and the Webserver supports the CGI interface (virtually any).
    PHP scripts just need one of three ways to get the PHP interpreter run:
    apache module, CGI or FastCGI.

    As an example why this might be important: beginning with version 2 apache
    supports multithreaded operation in contrast to just multiple processes. The
    PHP apache module does not. whenever you whant to use the PHP apache module
    you must go back to processes. For a customer we switched to the FastCGI
    Version of PHP without any code changes. Then we could use a multithreaded
    MPM module which increased the throughput of the server more than one order
    of magnitude on the same hardware.

    > but typically, the code the server addresses
    > directly consists of a lot of small, constantly changing modules
    > (Java beans)---something where the weaknesses of Java aren't
    > really significant.


    That is not true as well. Typically a web application itsself doesn't change
    too much if it is well thought out. Maybe some bugs are fixed or some
    components are added once in a while, but usually nothing changes all the
    time. Some of the weaknesses of Java are the reason why there is a servlet
    API and not just CGI.

    Actually I think, C++ as a language and as a runntime environment as much
    more potential for web applications than Java ever had, but there is no easy
    to use portable API:

    1. There is the possibility of writing apache, IIS, whatever sever modules.
    The drawback is that you are tied to apache, IIS, whatever then.
    Additionally these APIs are usually not really too simple.

    2. The second way is to use CGI. Then for every request a process will be
    spawned and the application will be started. That is OK for small things,
    but as soon as your program becomes more complex, you have long startup
    times, can't share ressources over multiple requests (e.g. DB connections)
    and have to use usually platform speciffic shared memory APIs to facillitate a
    fast communication between parallel requests.

    3. The third way is FastCGI. With FastCGI all the drawbacks of server
    modules and CGI can be solved, but my understanding of "easy to use" is
    something very different.

    >> Of course it is not impossible, but it is hard compared to
    >> Java. On the other hand hacking a servlet is more complicated
    >> than hacking a PHP script and PHP nowadays is powerfull enough
    >> to even crete bigger web applications.

    >
    > Whatever happened to JSP?


    There still seem to be some people out there using it, but it has proven to
    be the worst of two worlds. Well designed web applications that should stay
    so usually don't use JSP. Whenever you use JSP as view abstraction in a
    application that will be maintained by multiple developers, someone will
    come along and put code into the JSP that doesn't belong in the view, but in
    the application layer.

    As you see, JSP is considered harmfull. Use explicit template systems like
    e.g. XSLT instead.

    Of course the same thing happens with PHP, but that is just a basic language
    problem of PHP that Java itsself doesn't have. Why add it?

    > And if I were doing a
    > lightweight GUI client, I'd probably choose Java, simply because
    > Swing seems better than either wxWidgets or Qt.


    Actually I'd prefer either XUL/XBL/JavaScript or Python/PyQt.

    > there's nothing that the standards
    > committee could do, for example, to force web servers to give
    > C++ the same level of support they give Java.


    As I said, I don't think it should be in the standard. A well defined API,
    like WSGI for Python as a start, and a fiew implementations that are as
    portable as possible and can use various server APIs (e.g. apache module,
    FastCGI and CGI) or run as a minimal stand allone HTTP server would be a
    good beginning. Not in the standard, but very closely related to it.

    How could this happen? The committe I guess has a lot of more important
    things to do. So maybe we could find some interested people and first describe
    such a API and then implement it. If the committe spreads the word of that
    API as the state of the art way of implementing web applications with C++,
    that would be great support for their part.

    Christof
     
    Christof Donat, Mar 30, 2009
    #13
  14. > >Note: You can use Google to see the differences between C++ and other
    > >programming languages.

    >
    > You know, there's a difference between constructive criticism

    Plz spare me the high minded bs, nothing anyone says, not even Bjarne
    Stroustrup himself, is going to change how fast the committee works.
    [Any discussion about A, B or C being added in 2100 is
    pointless...Which is why I refuse to do it]

    > If you are really interested in improving on the flaws of C++

    The only flaws are a slow standards committee and the only way to fix
    it is to replace em.

    Note: I will let you work on that.

    Have a nice day.
     
    Anonymous Infidel, Mar 30, 2009
    #14
  15. Anonymous Infidel

    Noah Roberts Guest

    Re: Does anyone else wish the C++ standards committee would giveus parity with other programming languages?

    Anonymous Infidel wrote:
    >>> Note: You can use Google to see the differences between C++ and other
    >>> programming languages.

    >> You know, there's a difference between constructive criticism

    > Plz spare me the high minded bs, nothing anyone says, not even Bjarne
    > Stroustrup himself, is going to change how fast the committee works.
    > [Any discussion about A, B or C being added in 2100 is
    > pointless...Which is why I refuse to do it]
    >
    >> If you are really interested in improving on the flaws of C++

    > The only flaws are a slow standards committee and the only way to fix
    > it is to replace em.
    >
    > Note: I will let you work on that.
    >
    > Have a nice day.


    Tell you what, go do their job and let us know how long it takes.
     
    Noah Roberts, Mar 30, 2009
    #15
  16. > >>> Note: You can use Google to see the differences between C++ and other
    > >>> programming languages.
    > >> You know, there's a difference between constructive criticism

    > > Plz spare me the high minded bs, nothing anyone says, not even Bjarne
    > > Stroustrup himself, is going to change how fast the committee works.
    > > [Any discussion about A, B or C being added in 2100 is
    > > pointless...Which is why I refuse to do it]

    >
    > >> If you are really interested in improving on the flaws of C++

    > > The only flaws are a slow standards committee and the only way to fix
    > > it is to replace em.

    >
    > > Note: I will let you work on that.

    >
    > > Have a nice day.

    >
    > Tell you what, go do their job

    No need, companies like Microsoft already are. [Which is why we don't
    need to wait for the CSC to have support for multithreaded apps]
     
    Anonymous Infidel, Mar 31, 2009
    #16
  17. Anonymous Infidel

    Tony Guest

    Re: Does anyone else wish the C++ standards committee would give us parity with other programming languages?

    "James Kanze" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    On Mar 27, 10:09 pm, Arne Mertz <> wrote:
    > schrieb:


    > At any time there are lots of people complaining about "flaws"
    > that C++ has and that should be correctet - not realizing that
    > "correcting" these flaws would cut away some basic features of
    > the language.


    "Or break backwards compatibility. The biggest "flaw" C++ has is
    a totally broken declaration syntax, which leads to all sorts of
    ambiguities and problems. It inherited that flaw from C, and
    anything which might fix it would probably also break all, or
    almost all existing code."


    Of course "talk is cheap". Don't use C++ for new development. (OK, you have
    no choice. You will have choice "shortly" though). I use it too, but have
    stopped production code of any kind seeing the future is built upon the
    artifacts of C++ and other languages. D did it poorly, IMO, the next guy may
    do it better or not, but it will happen.

    Tony
     
    Tony, Mar 31, 2009
    #17
  18. Anonymous Infidel

    Tony Guest

    Re: Does anyone else wish the C++ standards committee would give us parity with other programming languages?

    "James Kanze" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    On Mar 27, 6:55 pm, Anonymous Infidel <> wrote:
    > > >Or better yet, force them(C#, Java, etc) to do the catch up game....


    > > Might be useful if you would clarify what in your mind is making the
    > > C++ language trail behind these other languages.


    > Simple...That would be all the things they can do that C++ can't.


    "Which are? And what about all the things you can do in C++ that
    you can't do in Java."

    That's not the problem, but you seem to jump at the bit for those
    opportunities to propagandize. (?).

    > Note: You can use Google to see the differences between C++
    > and other programming languages.


    "Who needs to?"

    Prima Donna" remark?

    " Most of us"

    Please do expound on how you assert that information. Do you have privy on
    how many lurkers read this ng? Who is "us", in your mind?

    Tony
     
    Tony, Mar 31, 2009
    #18
  19. Anonymous Infidel

    Tony Guest

    Re: Does anyone else wish the C++ standards committee would give us parity with other programming languages?

    "James Kanze" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    "I'm speaking about the people who post regularly here. I don't
    know of any experienced C++ programmer who isn't competent in
    several other languages as well."

    Are you asserting that fluency in multiple languages is "trumping" those who
    program in only one language? Why? C'mon now, C++ as the lowest level,
    close-to-the hardware language and promoting potential eco-system of library
    development has failed: it's for rocket scientists only and has held back
    humanity (it hasn't, the implementors have). YOU may be a scientist, but to
    hold back others because of technicality? Pfft!

    NO BAILOUT FOR GM/CHRYSLER/FORD/C++

    > > have actively programmed in several
    > > different languages. Including some of the newer ones, like
    > > Java or C#.


    > Then why did you ask me what the differences were above?


    "I didn't ask what the differences were; I know what the
    differences are (and why we continue to use C++ for most serious
    applications, rather than Java or C#). You claimed that there
    were things you could do in Java, but not in C++. I asked you
    to back up that claim. Obviously, you can't."

    Sounds like a pissing contest in the making. JK pissing his false authority
    first, hoping that it will delude the infidel (no pun on the troll's nick
    meant).

    Tony
     
    Tony, Mar 31, 2009
    #19
  20. Anonymous Infidel

    Tony Guest

    Re: Does anyone else wish the C++ standards committee would give us parity with other programming languages?

    "Christof Donat" <> wrote in message
    news:gqnknk$22l$-online.net...
    > Hi,
    >
    >> As I said, I've yet to find anything important that I could do
    >> in Java that I couldn't do in C++, and I've extensive experience
    >> in both languages.

    >
    > I'd say, e.g. writing web applications in C++ is a bit more difficult than
    > just hacking a servlet.


    Uh oh!! One of my first projects with my new library was going to be a web
    server! (Oh, did you mean HOSTED?)

    > Of course it is not impossible, but it is hard
    > compared to Java


    Uhh... isn't harder to say you are "slave of Sun" ("Are you a slave son?").

    > . On the other hand hacking a servlet is more complicated
    > than hacking a PHP script and PHP nowadays is powerfull enough to even
    > crete
    > bigger web applications.


    That's "Administratorland".

    >
    > So this is just an type of application where I wouldn't prefer to use C++
    > at
    > the moment.


    So maybe there is nothing out there for you to use or you want it for free.
    Go figure. Guess you'll have to start from scratch huh.

    >
    >> You claimed that there
    >> were things you could do in Java, but not in C++. I asked you
    >> to back up that claim. Obviously, you can't.

    >
    > Of course it is enough to know, that C++ is turing complete.


    Uh.. reality check, uh no.

    > I guess his
    > point was more on things that are a lot easier to do in Java than in C++.
    > Other things apart from web applications that come to my mind are the more
    > or less standardized OR-mapper (JDO), an aspect oriented framework for
    > enterprise applications (spring), a standardized, platform independent UI
    > library (Swing, I guess Qt could fill that gap), etc.


    I'm not "buying" that. C++ is stillborn. It's progeny hinders it. A few
    critical choices were made that will bury it. It's easy to say in
    retrospect. A new language (many?) is (are?) imminent. Soon, no one will
    program against C++ or Microsoft (apparently in the same category).

    > Actually being
    > not close to the standard library is in my oppinion the worst drawback of
    > Qt.


    You are young grasshopper.

    Tony
     
    Tony, Mar 31, 2009
    #20
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