Re: I have a problem with this:

[Neredbojias]

Hmmm, "works: eh? Validation isn't everything, but it certainly
reduces putting out wildfires as a client calls up in a panic, "Our
site's order form doesn't work for customers with X browser!"

Of course it doesn't. If you want X-rated you have to pay for X-rated!

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

Of course it doesn't. If you want X-rated you have to pay for X-rated!

Your mind is *always* in the same place! ;-)

 

[Neredbojias]

Your mind is *always* in the same place! ;-)

Ah, well, it's really the fault of this html stuff. Everytime I think
about all them peoples playing with all them elements, a funny feeling
kinda evolves inside me. I consider myself a very good
marker-upper and all but if I let myself daydream during work, I'm
bound to pull a few boners just like anybody else. Hell, whaddya gonna
do?

 

[Jenn]

Why would you imagine the worst possible case of a nightmare
website made by many other people when what what you are being
asked to compare is where other things are equal. Ever tried
working with some nightmare websites made by others with table
layout? You have a gift for misunderstanding. I should know, I
have one too!

yes.. I've worked on all sorts of websites fixing other peoples errors and
re-designing sites too. I kind of like it... the challenge part, that is.

 

[Jenn]

Not if (I'll use R1C1 convention here) the bit of footer info is in cell
4,3 and now needs to be in 4,1! Or the site is a nested table monstrosity
with row and column spans and not the new company logo is a different
shape!!!

No problemo ... resize the company logo to fit! LOL

 

[Jenn]

That's logical, and I think I do pretty much the same. It's been
awhile, though, since I've used tables for anything besides that
vertical middling thang but I'm about to come out with a page that has
more of 'em than flies around grandma's ass! It's going to be the
greatest coup since Virgil gave his leg a subconscious! Will report
back soon...

well.. I'd like to see that site if you don't mind ... just remember..
tables are your friend... tables are your friend .. keep reciting
that........ LOL

 

[dorayme]

yes.. I've worked on all sorts of websites fixing other peoples errors and
re-designing sites too. I kind of like it... the challenge part, that is.

Now you are showing off your gift proudly. I admire you.

 

[dorayme]

Jenn wrote:

I wouild love to see some URLs of sites you have built using tables for
layout.

There can be some very nice sites built with table layout. But
the real issue with our friend from Oklahoma is the black and
white inflexibility of his view. When it comes down to particular
aims like using up screenspace to the max, fluid design is the
only way to go and he has alrady been challenged to say how he
handles this with tables.

There is a lot of talk but no action and this surprises me.
Perhaps Oklahomans are different to Arizonians who are more
action than talk (witness Deputy Sherif Coogan (Clint Eastwood)
in Coogan's Bluff)

 

[Jenn]

1. I do think Jenn is female but, what the hell do I know?

last time I looked I was still a female.. LOL No plans on changing
it.......

2. I have no particular objection to table layouts except for what a
nuisance they are.

well.. I just LOVE tables.. not sure why, really .. just enjoy coding them.

3. She's not given any concrete examples of her work or sites to support
her statements. Which leads me to suspect she may be just trolling for
effect. For someone with such lengthy purported experience she is
profoundly out of touch with current/recent (like, what? ... the last ten
years?) thinking on these topics.

On the other hand, hell, it's just Web site design! As a friend of mine
used to say: "It ain't brain surgery. Nobody's gonna die if we screw
up." ;-)

awe.. I'm really kind of shy about my sites especially since most people
here like to code everything in CSS. This is my favorite site I designed
and built. http://cdkdistribution(dot)com [replace the dot with .] The
owners said I had a month and I could do anything I wanted to as far as
building a site goes for them... they just had two requirements (besides the
content they provided)... it had to showcase their products, and it had to
be ready by their grand opening date. I had to go hunting for their content,
tho. They gave me a list of their products and distributors.. I had to
gather the info... design the site, edit any images, and create any flash.
I suppose it's not the greatest or fanciest site compared to what some of
you guys have done, tho. [is nervous now.....]

 

[Jenn]

Now you are showing off your gift proudly. I admire you.

actually, I'm kind of nervous here and don't want to say the wrong thing.
Ya'll have been such nice people. I don't want to trip and knock over
someones favorite lamp! LOL

 

[dorayme]

actually, I'm kind of nervous here and don't want to say the wrong thing.
Ya'll have been such nice people. I don't want to trip and knock over
someones favorite lamp! LOL

Look, don't worry Jenn, if you behave humbly like me, you can
learn a lot around here. Hang about and improve the stability of
your own lamps. <g>

I looked at the site you gave a post or two back and I can say
you have a nice eye and sense of colour, a few of the right
building blocks for making good websites. And I'm impressed by
how you were proactive in gathering the material for your job.

I won't say much about the example except don't be reluctant to
hang about and pick up various things. I think it is fairly
obvious you need to get a better feel for usuablity issues, stuff
like robust best practice font sizes, use of Flash, easing up on
constraining boxes that cause unnecessary scrolling by the user
(especially one that has eyesight different to yours or young
people in general), a few things about the usefulness of
validating, using a strict doctype and so on. All things that
will *add* to your enjoyment, even in using tables.

 

[rf]

awe.. I'm really kind of shy about my sites especially since most people
here like to code everything in CSS. This is my favorite site I designed
and built. http://cdkdistribution(dot)com [replace the dot with .]

What's with the obfuscation?

owners said I had a month and I could do anything I wanted to as far as
building a site goes for them...

This what the owners had in mind?

http://barefile.com.au/screenshot/cdk.jpg

 

[freemont]

awe.. I'm really kind of shy about my sites especially since most people
here like to code everything in CSS. This is my favorite site I
designed and built. http://cdkdistribution(dot)com [replace the dot with
.] The owners said I had a month and I could do anything I wanted to as
far as building a site goes for them... they just had two requirements
(besides the content they provided)... it had to showcase their
products, and it had to be ready by their grand opening date. I had to
go hunting for their content, tho. They gave me a list of their
products and distributors.. I had to gather the info... design the site,
edit any images, and create any flash. I suppose it's not the greatest
or fanciest site compared to what some of you guys have done, tho. [is
nervous now.....]

<http://i42.tinypic.com/jq4whu.jpg>

Note the vertical and horizontal scrollbars... on the /Flash object/!!
(???)

 

[freemont]

3. She's not given any concrete examples of her work or sites to
support her statements. Which leads me to suspect she may be just
trolling for effect. For someone with such lengthy purported experience
she is profoundly out of touch with current/recent (like, what? ... the
last ten years?) thinking on these topics.

She's publicized these two before:

<http://pqlr.org/>

Which is just, uh... well, you decide. And -

<http://pqlr.org/bbs/>

Which is merely a phpBB installation, not customized in any way, let
alone adapted to its parent site.

And now a third site for that door & cabinet place that renders in about
1/3 of my screen. This Oklahoman needs to stop arguing and rethink her
ways. I mean, look at this:

<http://i39.tinypic.com/974t1j.png>

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Ed Mullen writ:

She's publicized these two before:
<http://pqlr.org/>
Which is just, uh... well, you decide. And -
...
And now a third site for that door & cabinet place that renders in
about 1/3 of my screen. This Oklahoman needs to stop arguing and
rethink her ways. I mean, look at this:

<http://i39.tinypic.com/974t1j.png>

The cabinet site also reveals what Jenn thinks is an "include" file, is
in reality an <iframe>. <g> [relating to a question I asked her in
another thread.]

Scrollbars everywhere at cdkdistribution.com and very user-unfriendly
with all the micro-fonts.

 

[rf]

She's publicized these two before:

<http://pqlr.org/>
<http://pqlr.org/bbs/>

I see Jenn's problem no so much as being with the use of tables but in the
fanatical illusion that "boxes that must contain their text". And we all
know that constrained boxes will *never* contain text.

In all the examples I have seen of her work, one or perhaps two increases in
font size, from the stupdly small font she specifies, critically breaks the
page.

Tables are not the issue here. If all those tables were left free, as they
should be, to increase in size then the issue would go away.

Methinks Jenn comes from a graphical arts background where everything is
drawn on a peice of paper and That Is How Big The Box Is Going To Be!

Pity really, the work is otherwise not to shabby.

 

[Jenn]

Ed Mullen writ:

She's publicized these two before:
<http://pqlr.org/>
Which is just, uh... well, you decide. And -
...
And now a third site for that door & cabinet place that renders in
about 1/3 of my screen. This Oklahoman needs to stop arguing and
rethink her ways. I mean, look at this:

<http://i39.tinypic.com/974t1j.png>

The cabinet site also reveals what Jenn thinks is an "include" file, is
in reality an <iframe>. <g> [relating to a question I asked her in
another thread.]

Scrollbars everywhere at cdkdistribution.com and very user-unfriendly
with all the micro-fonts.

naaaaaa ... that site has no includes! It's all basic html. Although, I do
like how iframes work and use them off and on when needed. LOL it was put
together as quickly as I possibly could considering I had to gather all the
content, plus I had to take pictures for their site. They wanted it to work
in IE, which is what their clients used at the time, and they approved the
design and functionality. It's what *they* wanted... and was done like 5
yrs ago ... the scrollbars show up in Firefox on one page... no biggie.
They loved it... loved the fonts .. loved the way their individual products
were displayed. Give THEM what THEY want is how I feel about it. They
don't care about the code. If they like it... that's what they get.

Oh .. and the pqlr.org site was built like 8 yrs ago. The bbs is a separate
installation and I really did not want it to look anything like my pqlr.org
site. I only recently added a link to the bbs because friends suggested I
do so...

 

[Jenn]

Look, don't worry Jenn, if you behave humbly like me, you can
learn a lot around here. Hang about and improve the stability of
your own lamps. <g>

I looked at the site you gave a post or two back and I can say
you have a nice eye and sense of colour, a few of the right
building blocks for making good websites. And I'm impressed by
how you were proactive in gathering the material for your job.

I won't say much about the example except don't be reluctant to
hang about and pick up various things. I think it is fairly
obvious you need to get a better feel for usuablity issues, stuff
like robust best practice font sizes, use of Flash, easing up on
constraining boxes that cause unnecessary scrolling by the user
(especially one that has eyesight different to yours or young
people in general), a few things about the usefulness of
validating, using a strict doctype and so on. All things that
will *add* to your enjoyment, even in using tables.

Well ... I've never had access to a group like this before, so I'm finding
it interesting. I've been too busy working! LOL I do enjoy learning new
things, but I also don't have time to start over and re-learn whatever
techniques some of you guys discuss. There just aren't enough hours in the
day to do that. It's been about 5 yrs since I did that website, so I didn't
have a problem sharing it here. I figured some people would be very
critical and others would be kind.. LOL What can I say ... I spent most of
my life homeschooling my kids and learning all of this stuff so I could work
from home until they got old enough to be on their own and out of school.
I ran my own business for like 7 yrs and made enough money building websites
for an insurance conglomerate and local small businesses just working
part-time to supplement our family income during that time. My plan was to
keep learning and eventually get a job outside of my home business doing the
same thing.. which I did do and have been working full-time now for 4 yrs.
Everything I've done has been a learning experience, but it's also been paid
time learning ON-THE-JOB, too.

Isn't that why we all do what we do? So we can make money?

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

awe.. I'm really kind of shy about my sites especially since most people
here like to code everything in CSS. This is my favorite site I designed
and built. http://cdkdistribution(dot)com [replace the dot with .]

What's with the obfuscation?

owners said I had a month and I could do anything I wanted to as far as
building a site goes for them...

This what the owners had in mind?

http://barefile.com.au/screenshot/cdk.jpg

What I get too, unless you settle for 11-pixel font! Good thing your not
too worried about valid markup, although I have seen much worse

<http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http://cdkdistribution.com>

and

<http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http://profwebsolutions.com>

<http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/...warning=0&amp;uri=http://profwebsolutions.com>

 

[Jenn]

I see Jenn's problem no so much as being with the use of tables but in the
fanatical illusion that "boxes that must contain their text". And we all
know that constrained boxes will *never* contain text.

In all the examples I have seen of her work, one or perhaps two increases
in font size, from the stupdly small font she specifies, critically breaks
the page.

Tables are not the issue here. If all those tables were left free, as they
should be, to increase in size then the issue would go away.

Methinks Jenn comes from a graphical arts background where everything is
drawn on a peice of paper and That Is How Big The Box Is Going To Be!

Pity really, the work is otherwise not to shabby.

LOL gee ... I figured there would be alot of critques.. why don't you say
what you REALLY think! ROFLOL

The worst critics are people who would compete with you for the same job.
What counts, imo, is the pay check. If I can give the client what they
want and get paid for it... then they are happy, and I'm happy. Perfection
is the luxury independently wealthy people have, and I'm not weathly! LOL
Most of my clients aren't wealthy, either. They just want something they
can afford, is functional, and looks nice. I'm not a school educated
webmaster... I've learned what I could on my own and actually made very good
money at it along the way. If a person can make money at what they enjoy
doing, then as far as I can tell, that is a good sign of a decent measure of
success.

I'd love to see some of your work freemont... I'm a fairly good critic,
too.