Re: I have a question about the etiquette of joining an open source project as a beginner

Discussion in 'C++' started by joe, Jun 11, 2010.

  1. joe

    joe Guest

    jackOrip wrote:
    > I am just beginning to develop my own VERY small applications.
    > However, I believe I have learned all I can at my extremely limited
    > school.


    "school" does not equate to learning. Now a days, you have many more
    resources at your disposal, the internet is one of them. Schools are
    pretty much obsolete, IMO.

    > I think the next step is to join an open source project


    FWIW, I would not hire or work with anyone who has worked on GPL'd source
    nor who has worked for another software house. Period.

    > learn from those who are better than me.


    Learn from information, not from people. All you can learn from people is
    their political games.

    > Yes, I still read massive
    > amounts of books and tutorials but nothing compares to the actual act
    > of getting your hands dirty with some code.


    So develop some. If you are young, goal-setting is probably your biggest
    problem: you don't know what you want to do, what you value, "the grand
    scheme of things", etc. I don't give advice, except this one thing: don't
    work overtime for any "employer", EVER.

    >
    > My question is: Are there places where budding programmers (not
    > newbies) like me could go to join in on something without being
    > expected to produce massive amounts of quality work. I just don't
    > think I'm at that level yet.


    You are calling the wolves to eat you up! Get away from programming for
    awhile and bone up on intellectual property, slavery, etc. Not advice, of
    course.

    >
    > Also, it would be nice if it was a place where beginners aren't
    > scorned for not knowing every single method, function, and library
    > that currently exists.


    You probably already know too much for my liking. I want those who know
    programming principles and were presented with them objectively or even
    sceptically. The last thing I would want for a programmer is someone who
    has been programmed!

    > I would really like a place where feedback is
    > given.


    Welcome to USENET. ;)

    > Since my school only has the one C++ course, I bet I will still
    > need some explanations.


    Don't worry, Bjarne is still trying to explain it.

    >
    > Any suggestions?


    Nope.
     
    joe, Jun 11, 2010
    #1
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  2. joe

    Andrea Guest

    Re: I have a question about the etiquette of joining an open sourceproject as a beginner

    joe wrote:
    > jackOrip wrote:
    > > I am just beginning to develop my own VERY small applications.
    > > However, I believe I have learned all I can at my extremely limited
    > > school.

    >
    > "school" does not equate to learning. Now a days, you have many more
    > resources at your disposal, the internet is one of them. Schools are
    > pretty much obsolete, IMO.


    somewhat agree

    > > I think the next step is to join an open source project

    >
    > FWIW, I would not hire or work with anyone who has worked on GPL'd source
    > nor who has worked for another software house. Period.


    whoa, that narrows down the choice quite a bit... could you describe
    your ideal teammate / employee?

    > > learn from those who are better than me.

    >
    > Learn from information, not from people. All you can learn from people is
    > their political games.


    so the OP should completely avoid posting questions here, I suppose...

    > > Yes, I still read massive
    > > amounts of books and tutorials but nothing compares to the actual act
    > > of getting your hands dirty with some code.

    >
    > So develop some. If you are young, goal-setting is probably your biggest
    > problem: you don't know what you want to do, what you value, "the grand
    > scheme of things", etc. I don't give advice, except this one thing: don't
    > work overtime for any "employer", EVER.


    I would say: never without getting the due (augmented) wage.

    > >
    > > My question is: Are there places where budding programmers (not
    > > newbies) like me could go to join in on something without being
    > > expected to produce massive amounts of quality work. I just don't
    > > think I'm at that level yet.

    >
    > You are calling the wolves to eat you up! Get away from programming for
    > awhile and bone up on intellectual property, slavery, etc. Not advice, of
    > course.


    agree, you must know your value first of all, and be able to tell
    who's willing to grow /with/ you from who's willing to grow /on/ you,
    never missing to send to hell the latter

    > >
    > > Also, it would be nice if it was a place where beginners aren't
    > > scorned for not knowing every single method, function, and library
    > > that currently exists.

    >
    > You probably already know too much for my liking. I want those who know
    > programming principles and were presented with them objectively or even
    > sceptically. The last thing I would want for a programmer is someone who
    > has been programmed!
    >
    > > I would really like a place where feedback is
    > > given.

    >
    > Welcome to USENET. ;)
    >
    > > Since my school only has the one C++ course, I bet I will still
    > > need some explanations.

    >
    > Don't worry, Bjarne is still trying to explain it.


    uh, joe, seems like you're not so happy with C++... any complaints?

    > >
    > > Any suggestions?

    >
    > Nope.


    yep on my part, I'm willing to share my knowledge, but you already got
    plenty of good advices so far about this subject, I can only stress
    more the "practice, practice, practice" mantra, whatever the field
    that tickles your brain

    shall you need detailed help on the language's features, feel free to
    ask, there are a lot of tough guys in here
     
    Andrea, Jun 11, 2010
    #2
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  3. Re: I have a question about the etiquette of joining an open sourceproject as a beginner

    On Jun 11, 9:38 am, jackOrip <> wrote:
    > Ouch. Thanks for taking a little of the sting off of Joe's comment.
    > While I agree with some of what he says, it's comforting to see not
    > all here believe exactly as he does. For the record, I'm 32 years
    > old. I'm not an impressionable or easily frightened child. I just went
    > back to school because I could finally afford to.
    >
    > I know all to well about the politics and social game-playing of the
    > adult world. I thought my question would have a relatively simple
    > answer (a url) not start a discussion on moral and ethical deviance.
    > hehehe. I'm just new to programming, not to life guys.
    >
    > Again, thanks for all the super advice. I have archived these threads
    > so I can get back to them. Until then, I'm gonna let you guys/gals get
    > back to the debate on who makes a better co-worker. ;)


    Honestly you can completely and totally ignore "joe"'s post. It
    was one of the most bizarre, off-base, ignorant troll posts I've
    ever seen randomly appear in an otherwise nice discussion. Such
    entities as this on usenet are called "trolls" and are best
    ignored entirely.

    KHD
     
    Keith H Duggar, Jun 11, 2010
    #3
  4. joe

    joe Guest

    "Andrea" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > joe wrote:
    >> jackOrip wrote:
    >> > I am just beginning to develop my own VERY small applications.
    >> > However, I believe I have learned all I can at my extremely limited
    >> > school.

    >>
    >> "school" does not equate to learning. Now a days, you have many more
    >> resources at your disposal, the internet is one of them. Schools are
    >> pretty much obsolete, IMO.

    >
    > somewhat agree


    This isn't a poll. Feel free to snip anything you do add value to. (From
    USENET rules of etiquette 101, surely). Goal: try to make posts shorter
    and responses fewer (in a good way though). OK? You get it (now).

    >
    >> > I think the next step is to join an open source project

    >>
    >> FWIW, I would not hire or work with anyone who has worked on GPL'd
    >> source
    >> nor who has worked for another software house. Period.

    >
    > whoa, that narrows down the choice quite a bit... could you describe
    > your ideal teammate / employee?


    Not currently hiring nor allying.

    >
    >> > learn from those who are better than me.

    >>
    >> Learn from information, not from people. All you can learn from people
    >> is
    >> their political games.

    >
    > so the OP should completely avoid posting questions here, I suppose...


    Extremism singled out as noise. Don't do what Andrea just did people:
    went to a far place of abstraction in attempt to generalize into a
    following.

    >
    >> > Yes, I still read massive
    >> > amounts of books and tutorials but nothing compares to the actual
    >> > act
    >> > of getting your hands dirty with some code.

    >>
    >> So develop some. If you are young, goal-setting is probably your
    >> biggest
    >> problem: you don't know what you want to do, what you value, "the
    >> grand
    >> scheme of things", etc. I don't give advice, except this one thing:
    >> don't
    >> work overtime for any "employer", EVER.

    >
    > I would say: never without getting the due (augmented) wage.


    I said NEVER and meant it. Note the CAPITALIZATION. If the situation is
    that bad, do it, but ramp your price up until the end where there will be
    a balloon payment for the omitted keys. Don't play games, be up front
    WHAT you are selling ad how much it will cost. Easier to avoid all those
    stupid people and games and just don't do it. They are trying to get the
    better of you, and that, by definition, is NOT a relationship (even a
    business one).

    >
    >> >
    >> > My question is: Are there places where budding programmers (not
    >> > newbies) like me could go to join in on something without being
    >> > expected to produce massive amounts of quality work. I just don't
    >> > think I'm at that level yet.

    >>
    >> You are calling the wolves to eat you up! Get away from programming
    >> for
    >> awhile and bone up on intellectual property, slavery, etc. Not advice,
    >> of
    >> course.

    >
    > agree, you must know your value first of all, and be able to tell
    > who's willing to grow /with/ you from who's willing to grow /on/ you,
    > never missing to send to hell the latter


    This isn't a polling place. It's USENET.

    >
    >> >
    >> > Also, it would be nice if it was a place where beginners aren't
    >> > scorned for not knowing every single method, function, and library
    >> > that currently exists.

    >>
    >> You probably already know too much for my liking. I want those who
    >> know
    >> programming principles and were presented with them objectively or
    >> even
    >> sceptically. The last thing I would want for a programmer is someone
    >> who
    >> has been programmed!
    >>
    >> > I would really like a place where feedback is
    >> > given.

    >>
    >> Welcome to USENET. ;)
    >>
    >> > Since my school only has the one C++ course, I bet I will still
    >> > need some explanations.

    >>
    >> Don't worry, Bjarne is still trying to explain it.

    >
    > uh, joe, seems like you're not so happy with C++... any complaints?


    I made no such connotation.

    >
    >> >
    >> > Any suggestions?

    >>
    >> Nope.

    >
    > shall you need detailed help on the language's features, feel free to
    > ask, there are a lot of tough guys in here


    Don't waste your time with that! READ a book (or 12!). Most things that
    drag on in here have been written in a book already. Some of the "Gurus"
    like to bring you that well-known material so that you think they are
    gurus. Read, learn. Do, get good at something. Both things are required.
     
    joe, Jun 13, 2010
    #4
  5. joe

    joe Guest

    Re: I have a question about the etiquette of joining an open source project as a beginner

    "jackOrip" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 03:06:32 -0700 (PDT), Andrea <>
    > wrote:
    > I have archived these threads
    > so I can get back to them.


    Do internet searches on why you should not file away emails to address
    them later. It is similar to why you should not do it with USENET
    threads. Certain posts, sure. Whole threads, surely not. I save technical
    material sometimes, but mostly to remind me of what I want someone else
    to do in the future (details).
     
    joe, Jun 13, 2010
    #5
  6. joe

    joe Guest

    "Keith H Duggar" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Jun 11, 9:38 am, jackOrip <> wrote:
    >> Ouch. Thanks for taking a little of the sting off of Joe's comment.
    >> While I agree with some of what he says, it's comforting to see not
    >> all here believe exactly as he does. For the record, I'm 32 years
    >> old. I'm not an impressionable or easily frightened child. I just went
    >> back to school because I could finally afford to.
    >>
    >> I know all to well about the politics and social game-playing of the
    >> adult world. I thought my question would have a relatively simple
    >> answer (a url) not start a discussion on moral and ethical deviance.
    >> hehehe. I'm just new to programming, not to life guys.
    >>
    >> Again, thanks for all the super advice. I have archived these threads
    >> so I can get back to them. Until then, I'm gonna let you guys/gals get
    >> back to the debate on who makes a better co-worker. ;)

    >
    > Honestly you can completely and totally ignore "joe"'s post. It
    > was one of the most bizarre, off-base, ignorant troll posts I've
    > ever seen randomly appear in an otherwise nice discussion. Such
    > entities as this on usenet are called "trolls" and are best
    > ignored entirely.
    >
    > KHD


    OTOH, defamation of character is against the law (at least where I live
    it is). Consider this notice to cease and desist Keith H Duggar.
     
    joe, Jun 13, 2010
    #6
  7. joe

    Andrea Guest

    Re: I have a question about the etiquette of joining an open sourceproject as a beginner

    joe wrote:
    > "Andrea" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > joe wrote:
    > >> jackOrip wrote:
    > >> > I am just beginning to develop my own VERY small applications.
    > >> > However, I believe I have learned all I can at my extremely limited
    > >> > school.
    > >>
    > >> "school" does not equate to learning. Now a days, you have many more
    > >> resources at your disposal, the internet is one of them. Schools are
    > >> pretty much obsolete, IMO.

    > >
    > > somewhat agree

    >
    > This isn't a poll. Feel free to snip anything you do add value to. (From
    > USENET rules of etiquette 101, surely). Goal: try to make posts shorter
    > and responses fewer (in a good way though). OK? You get it (now).


    I acknowledge your preferred style of replying. though, I'm not
    obliged to follow your style. feel free to drop a "this isn't a poll"
    whenever someone agrees with you

    > >
    > >> > I think the next step is to join an open source project
    > >>
    > >> FWIW, I would not hire or work with anyone who has worked on GPL'd
    > >> source
    > >> nor who has worked for another software house. Period.

    > >
    > > whoa, that narrows down the choice quite a bit... could you describe
    > > your ideal teammate / employee?

    >
    > Not currently hiring nor allying.


    I'd say then that your line should have read "I would not hire or work
    with anyone", but eventually you're currently someone's boss or
    teammate, hence the line should read something different... whatever

    >
    > >
    > >> > learn from those who are better than me.
    > >>
    > >> Learn from information, not from people. All you can learn from people
    > >> is
    > >> their political games.

    > >
    > > so the OP should completely avoid posting questions here, I suppose...

    >
    > Extremism singled out as noise. Don't do what Andrea just did people:
    > went to a far place of abstraction in attempt to generalize into a
    > following.


    'twas mine, the extremism? the phrase I was replying to (i.e. a net
    generalization) is quite less "balanced" than mine (i.e. a
    supposition, inferred from your generalization)

    > >
    > >> > Yes, I still read massive
    > >> > amounts of books and tutorials but nothing compares to the actual
    > >> > act
    > >> > of getting your hands dirty with some code.
    > >>
    > >> So develop some. If you are young, goal-setting is probably your
    > >> biggest
    > >> problem: you don't know what you want to do, what you value, "the
    > >> grand
    > >> scheme of things", etc. I don't give advice, except this one thing:
    > >> don't
    > >> work overtime for any "employer", EVER.

    > >
    > > I would say: never without getting the due (augmented) wage.

    >
    > I said NEVER and meant it. Note the CAPITALIZATION. If the situation is
    > that bad, do it, but ramp your price up until the end where there will be
    > a balloon payment for the omitted keys. Don't play games, be up front
    > WHAT you are selling ad how much it will cost. Easier to avoid all those
    > stupid people and games and just don't do it. They are trying to get the
    > better of you, and that, by definition, is NOT a relationship (even a
    > business one).


    your definition doesn't match others', which can be quite different.
    in particular, your definition of "relationship" doesn't match the
    vocabulary's one: a relationship can be anything from good to bad, it
    simply represents the fact of having a relation, it doesn't define any
    of its qualities

    I must notice that you go on making generalizations...

    > >
    > >> >
    > >> > My question is: Are there places where budding programmers (not
    > >> > newbies) like me could go to join in on something without being
    > >> > expected to produce massive amounts of quality work. I just don't
    > >> > think I'm at that level yet.
    > >>
    > >> You are calling the wolves to eat you up! Get away from programming
    > >> for
    > >> awhile and bone up on intellectual property, slavery, etc. Not advice,
    > >> of
    > >> course.

    > >
    > > agree, you must know your value first of all, and be able to tell
    > > who's willing to grow /with/ you from who's willing to grow /on/ you,
    > > never missing to send to hell the latter

    >
    > This isn't a polling place. It's USENET.
    >
    > >
    > >> >
    > >> > Also, it would be nice if it was a place where beginners aren't
    > >> > scorned for not knowing every single method, function, and library
    > >> > that currently exists.
    > >>
    > >> You probably already know too much for my liking. I want those who
    > >> know
    > >> programming principles and were presented with them objectively or
    > >> even
    > >> sceptically. The last thing I would want for a programmer is someone
    > >> who
    > >> has been programmed!
    > >>
    > >> > I would really like a place where feedback is
    > >> > given.
    > >>
    > >> Welcome to USENET. ;)
    > >>
    > >> > Since my school only has the one C++ course, I bet I will still
    > >> > need some explanations.
    > >>
    > >> Don't worry, Bjarne is still trying to explain it.

    > >
    > > uh, joe, seems like you're not so happy with C++... any complaints?

    >
    > I made no such connotation.


    glad to read this clarification, because your line was ambiguous at
    best

    >
    > >
    > >> >
    > >> > Any suggestions?
    > >>
    > >> Nope.

    > >
    > > shall you need detailed help on the language's features, feel free to
    > > ask, there are a lot of tough guys in here

    >
    > Don't waste your time with that! READ a book (or 12!). Most things that
    > drag on in here have been written in a book already. Some of the "Gurus"
    > like to bring you that well-known material so that you think they are
    > gurus. Read, learn. Do, get good at something. Both things are required.


    that's not a waste of time, lots of people have taken advantage of the
    clarifications exposed in these groups (clc++, clc++m, csc++ to name
    just the c++ related ones) this is just a medium to communicate with
    people, and among those people are book writers, compiler implementers
    and collaborators of the standardization team, and as well are, I
    repeat, tough people who gained experience on the field

    you DO give some good advices, but you scatter them among misanthropic
    statements. books are written by human beings just like USENET posts -
    modulo spambots - and both can be useful or harmful: the decisive
    place is the field: only by putting something in practice one can
    discover whether some given information is correct or not, whatever
    the source, but this means that I somewhat agree with you, and I'm
    afraid you'll reply that "this is not a poll"
     
    Andrea, Jun 13, 2010
    #7
  8. Re: I have a question about the etiquette of joining an open sourceproject as a beginner

    On Jun 13, 6:36 am, Andrea <> wrote:
    > joe wrote:
    > > "Andrea" <> wrote in message
    > >news:...
    > > > joe wrote:
    > > >> jackOrip wrote:
    > > >> > I am just beginning to develop my own VERY small applications.
    > > >> > However, I believe I have learned all I can at my extremely limited
    > > >> > school.

    >
    > > >> "school" does not equate to learning. Now a days, you have many more
    > > >> resources at your disposal, the internet is one of them. Schools are
    > > >> pretty much obsolete, IMO.

    >
    > > > somewhat agree

    >
    > > This isn't a poll. Feel free to snip anything you do add value to. (From
    > > USENET rules of etiquette 101, surely). Goal: try to make posts shorter
    > > and responses fewer (in a good way though). OK? You get it (now).

    >
    > I acknowledge your preferred style of replying. though, I'm not
    > obliged to follow your style. feel free to drop a "this isn't a poll"
    > whenever someone agrees with you


    Please do not feed the troll! They are best totally ignored.
    Please stop feeding it ie stop replying to it.

    KHD
     
    Keith H Duggar, Jun 13, 2010
    #8
  9. joe

    Andrea Guest

    Re: I have a question about the etiquette of joining an open sourceproject as a beginner

    Keith H Duggar wrote:
    > On Jun 13, 6:36 am, Andrea <> wrote:
    > > joe wrote:
    > > > "Andrea" <> wrote in message
    > > >news:...
    > > > > joe wrote:
    > > > >> jackOrip wrote:
    > > > >> > I am just beginning to develop my own VERY small applications.
    > > > >> > However, I believe I have learned all I can at my extremely limited
    > > > >> > school.

    > >
    > > > >> "school" does not equate to learning. Now a days, you have many more
    > > > >> resources at your disposal, the internet is one of them. Schools are
    > > > >> pretty much obsolete, IMO.

    > >
    > > > > somewhat agree

    > >
    > > > This isn't a poll. Feel free to snip anything you do add value to. (From
    > > > USENET rules of etiquette 101, surely). Goal: try to make posts shorter
    > > > and responses fewer (in a good way though). OK? You get it (now).

    > >
    > > I acknowledge your preferred style of replying. though, I'm not
    > > obliged to follow your style. feel free to drop a "this isn't a poll"
    > > whenever someone agrees with you

    >
    > Please do not feed the troll! They are best totally ignored.
    > Please stop feeding it ie stop replying to it.


    that's a contradiction in terms, you cannot publicly call names on
    people and then ask others not to reply to the same person you've
    called names upon - if you wanted, you could have sent private emails
    to the people who actually replied to him explaining your point of
    view

    look, I'm new here and this is the first time I speak with all of you,
    I don't want to take on whichever party about someone on the base of
    some third-person advice, I'll eventually be able to make up my own
    mind, thanks a lot
     
    Andrea, Jun 13, 2010
    #9
  10. joe

    Öö Tiib Guest

    Re: I have a question about the etiquette of joining an open sourceproject as a beginner

    On Jun 13, 7:30 pm, Andrea <> wrote:
    > Keith H Duggar wrote:
    > > On Jun 13, 6:36 am, Andrea <> wrote:
    > > > joe wrote:
    > > > > "Andrea" <> wrote in message
    > > > >news:...
    > > > > > joe wrote:
    > > > > >> jackOrip wrote:
    > > > > >> > I am just beginning to develop my own VERY small applications.
    > > > > >> > However, I believe I have learned all I can at my extremely limited
    > > > > >> > school.

    >
    > > > > >> "school" does not equate to learning. Now a days, you have many more
    > > > > >> resources at your disposal, the internet is one of them. Schools are
    > > > > >> pretty much obsolete, IMO.

    >
    > > > > > somewhat agree

    >
    > > > > This isn't a poll. Feel free to snip anything you do add value to. (From
    > > > > USENET rules of etiquette 101, surely). Goal: try to make posts shorter
    > > > > and responses fewer (in a good way though). OK? You get it (now).

    >
    > > > I acknowledge your preferred style of replying. though, I'm not
    > > > obliged to follow your style. feel free to drop a "this isn't a poll"
    > > > whenever someone agrees with you

    >
    > > Please do not feed the troll! They are best totally ignored.
    > > Please stop feeding it ie stop replying to it.

    >
    > that's a contradiction in terms, you cannot publicly call names on
    > people and then ask others not to reply to the same person you've
    > called names upon - if you wanted, you could have sent private emails
    > to the people who actually replied to him explaining your point of
    > view
    >
    > look, I'm new here and this is the first time I speak with all of you,
    > I don't want to take on whichever party about someone on the base of
    > some third-person advice, I'll eventually be able to make up my own
    > mind, thanks a lot


    joe posted pile of self-contradicting views. Rough example: "do not
    learn from others but from books and other information."

    As if one should learn only by reading books written by (or
    information provided by) non-others (self). That is too obviously
    nonsensical. Not likely worth replying at all.

    Keith suspects that joe therefore wants to annoy (troll) someone (you)
    who takes what he posted too seriously. If Keith is right then
    becoming annoyed is sort of reward to joe (food, lulz, whatever trolls
    name it). Your reply felt ... sort of annoyed. ;)
     
    Öö Tiib, Jun 15, 2010
    #10
  11. joe

    joe Guest

    "Öö Tiib" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > joe posted pile of self-contradicting views. Rough example: "do not
    > learn from others but from books and other information."
    >
    > As if one should learn only by reading books written by (or
    > information provided by) non-others (self). That is too obviously
    > nonsensical. Not likely worth replying at all.
    >
    > Keith suspects that joe therefore wants to annoy (troll) someone (you)
    > who takes what he posted too seriously. If Keith is right then
    > becoming annoyed is sort of reward to joe (food, lulz, whatever trolls
    > name it). Your reply felt ... sort of annoyed. ;)


    How to recognize an idiot: they contrive false scenarios so they can call
    people trolls. Try to recruit a following for their malicious agenda. Who
    knows what their purpose is in doing so. Safe to say, I don't like em.
     
    joe, Jun 19, 2010
    #11
    1. Advertising

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