Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?

Discussion in 'Python' started by Chris Angelico, Jul 30, 2012.

  1. On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Stefan Behnel <> wrote:
    > Still, you may still get away with the above statement by providing a
    > sufficiently narrow definition of "standalone". By my definition, there
    > isn't much "standalone" code out there. Most code I know interfaces with a
    > couple of external tools, libraries or backends, usually written in
    > languages I don't have to care about because they provide a language
    > independent interface.


    Agreed, and the flip-side of that is that there aren't many
    mono-language developers either. Sure, it'd be possible to make a
    career of nothing but Objective-C, writing apps for Apple to make all
    the money off, but even then you'll probably benefit from knowing some
    glue languages.

    Python's an excellent glue language, but it's also fine for huge
    applications. Yes, it can't multithread across cores if you use
    CPython and are CPU-bound. That's actually a pretty specific
    limitation, and taking out any component of that eliminates the GIL as
    a serious problem.

    ChrisA
     
    Chris Angelico, Jul 30, 2012
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Chris Angelico

    Roy Smith Guest

    In article <>,
    Chris Angelico <> wrote:

    > Python's an excellent glue language, but it's also fine for huge
    > applications. Yes, it can't multithread across cores if you use
    > CPython and are CPU-bound. That's actually a pretty specific
    > limitation, and taking out any component of that eliminates the GIL as
    > a serious problem.


    These days, I'm working on a fairly large web application (songza.com).
    The business/application logic is written entirely in Python (mostly as
    two django apps). That's what we spend 80% of our developer time
    writing.

    As for scale, we're currently running on 80 cores worth of AWS servers
    for the front end. Another 50 or so cores for the database and other
    backend functions. Yesterday (Sunday, so a slow day), we served 27
    million HTTP requests; we're not facebook-sized, but it's not some
    little toy application either.

    Every time we look at performance, we can't hardly measure the time it
    takes to run the Python code. Overall, we spend (way) more time waiting
    on network I/O than anything else. Other than I/O, our biggest
    performance issue is slow database queries, and making more queries than
    we really need to.

    The engineering work to improve performance involves restructuring our
    data representation in the database, caching (at multiple levels), or
    eliminating marginal features which cost more than they're worth. None
    of this would be any different if we used C++, except that we'd spend so
    much time writing and debugging code that we'd have no time left to
    think about the really important stuff.

    As far as the GIL is concerned, it's just not an issue for us. We run
    lots of server processes. Perhaps not as elegant as running fewer
    multi-threaded processes, but it works just fine, is easy to implement,
    and we never have to worry about all the horrors of getting memory
    management right in a multi-threaded C++ application.
     
    Roy Smith, Jul 30, 2012
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Chris Angelico

    David Guest

    On 30/07/2012, lipska the kat <> wrote:
    > On 30/07/12 14:06, Roy Smith wrote:
    >>
    >> These days, I'm working on a fairly large web application (songza.com).

    >
    > "We are very sorry to say that due to licensing constraints we cannot
    > allow access to Songza for listeners located outside of the United States."
    >
    > Arse :-(


    A free[1] US proxy could bypass[2] that page ... eg something like
    http://www.airproxy.ca/

    [1] as in beer
    [2] for research purposes
     
    David, Jul 31, 2012
    #3
  4. Chris Angelico

    David Guest

    On 01/08/2012, lipska the kat <> wrote:
    > On 31/07/12 14:52, David wrote:
    >>
    >> [1] as in beer
    >> [2] for research purposes

    >
    > There's one (as in 1 above) in the pump for you.


    Great, more beer => better research => \o/\o/\o/
    But, "pump" sounds a bit extreme .. I usually sip contentedly from a glass :p
     
    David, Aug 1, 2012
    #4
  5. On 01/08/2012 00:31, David wrote:
    > On 01/08/2012, lipska the kat <> wrote:
    >> On 31/07/12 14:52, David wrote:
    >>>
    >>> [1] as in beer
    >>> [2] for research purposes

    >>
    >> There's one (as in 1 above) in the pump for you.

    >
    > Great, more beer => better research => \o/\o/\o/
    > But, "pump" sounds a bit extreme .. I usually sip contentedly from a glass :p
    >


    You complete ignoramus, if it gets poured in advance that's no good to
    anybody as it'll go flat. Has to stay in the pump until you're ready to
    drink it from the glass. Don't you know anything about the importance
    of process and timing? :)

    --
    Cheers.

    Mark Lawrence.
     
    Mark Lawrence, Aug 1, 2012
    #5
  6. Chris Angelico

    David Guest

    On 01/08/2012, lipska the kat <> wrote:
    > On 01/08/12 09:06, Mark Lawrence wrote:
    >>
    >> You complete ignoramus, if it gets poured in advance that's no good to
    >> anybody as it'll go flat. Has to stay in the pump until you're ready to
    >> drink it from the glass. Don't you know anything about the importance of
    >> process and timing? :)

    >
    > Heh heh, obviously never got drunk ... er I mean served behind the bar
    > at uni/college/pub %-}


    Nah, obviously *is* drunk ;p
     
    David, Aug 1, 2012
    #6
  7. David, 01.08.2012 13:59:
    > On 01/08/2012, lipska the kat wrote:
    >> On 01/08/12 09:06, Mark Lawrence wrote:
    >>>
    >>> You complete ignoramus, if it gets poured in advance that's no good to
    >>> anybody as it'll go flat. Has to stay in the pump until you're ready to
    >>> drink it from the glass. Don't you know anything about the importance of
    >>> process and timing? :)

    >>
    >> Heh heh, obviously never got drunk ... er I mean served behind the bar
    >> at uni/college/pub %-}

    >
    > Nah, obviously *is* drunk ;p


    Would you mind taking this slightly off-topic discussion off the list?

    Thanks.

    Stefan
     
    Stefan Behnel, Aug 1, 2012
    #7
  8. Chris Angelico

    David Guest

    On 01/08/2012, Stefan Behnel <> wrote:
    >
    > Would you mind taking this slightly off-topic discussion off the list?


    I always strive to stay on-topic. In fact immediately this thread went
    off topic, 4 messages back, I did try to go off list, but got this
    result from the OP:

    Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

    Technical details of permanent failure:
    Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the
    recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for
    further information about the cause of this error. The error that the
    other server returned was: 554 554 delivery error: dd This user
    doesn't have a yahoo.co.uk account () [-5] -
    mta1050.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (state 17).
    Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:31:43 +1000
    Subject: Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
    From: David <>
    To: lipska the kat <>

    Then, if someone is going to call me an ignoramus on a public list,
    they will receive a response in the same forum.

    So, I apologise to the list, but please note the unusual circumstances. Thanks.
     
    David, Aug 2, 2012
    #8
  9. On 02/08/2012 04:10, David wrote:
    > On 01/08/2012, Stefan Behnel <> wrote:
    >>
    >> Would you mind taking this slightly off-topic discussion off the list?

    >
    > I always strive to stay on-topic. In fact immediately this thread went
    > off topic, 4 messages back, I did try to go off list, but got this
    > result from the OP:
    >
    > Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:
    >
    > Technical details of permanent failure:
    > Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the
    > recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for
    > further information about the cause of this error. The error that the
    > other server returned was: 554 554 delivery error: dd This user
    > doesn't have a yahoo.co.uk account () [-5] -
    > mta1050.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (state 17).
    > Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 09:31:43 +1000
    > Subject: Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?
    > From: David <>
    > To: lipska the kat <>
    >
    > Then, if someone is going to call me an ignoramus on a public list,
    > they will receive a response in the same forum.
    >
    > So, I apologise to the list, but please note the unusual circumstances. Thanks.
    >


    I'm in stuck record mode here, but one of the things I really enjoy
    about reading here is the way things do go off topic. IMHO makes for a
    far more interesting experience. YMMV.

    --
    Cheers.

    Mark Lawrence.
     
    Mark Lawrence, Aug 2, 2012
    #9
  10. > I'm in stuck record mode here, but one of the things I really enjoy

    > about reading here is the way things do go off topic. IMHO makes for a
    > far more interesting experience. YMMV.


    +1

    Ramit
    This email is confidential and subject to important disclaimers and
    conditions including on offers for the purchase or sale of
    securities, accuracy and completeness of information, viruses,
    confidentiality, legal privilege, and legal entity disclaimers,
    available at http://www.jpmorgan.com/pages/disclosures/email.
     
    Prasad, Ramit, Aug 3, 2012
    #10
  11. Prasad, Ramit, 03.08.2012 08:51:
    >> I'm in stuck record mode here, but one of the things I really enjoy
    >> about reading here is the way things do go off topic. IMHO makes for a
    >> far more interesting experience. YMMV.

    >
    > +1
    >
    > Ramit
    > This email is confidential and subject to important disclaimers and
    > conditions including on offers for the purchase or sale of
    > securities, accuracy and completeness of information, viruses,
    > confidentiality, legal privilege, and legal entity disclaimers,
    > available at http://www.jpmorgan.com/pages/disclosures/email.


    Huh? Who's still trying to sell viruses these days? I thought they came for
    free?

    Stefan
     
    Stefan Behnel, Aug 3, 2012
    #11
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Michael Hrivnak

    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?

    Michael Hrivnak, Jul 29, 2012, in forum: Python
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    207
    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
    Jul 29, 2012
  2. Mark Lawrence

    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?

    Mark Lawrence, Jul 29, 2012, in forum: Python
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    156
    Mark Lawrence
    Jul 29, 2012
  3. Stefan Behnel
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    158
    Stefan Behnel
    Jul 29, 2012
  4. Brandon Schaffer

    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ?

    Brandon Schaffer, Jul 29, 2012, in forum: Python
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    154
    Brandon Schaffer
    Jul 29, 2012
  5. Tim Chase
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    175
    Tim Chase
    Jul 29, 2012
Loading...

Share This Page