Re: Isn't java.lang.Character.html#{ isLetterFromLang(int codePoint,String ISOLangDef) missing from

Discussion in 'Java' started by Lew, Dec 5, 2010.

  1. Lew

    Lew Guest

    quoted Joshua Cranmer, who wrote:
    >> ... --you can represent '?' as both the "Latin small e with accent grave" and as "Latin small e" followed by a "modifying accent grave".


    You need a newsreader that understands Unicode, lbrtchx.

    And to attribute your citations. Whom were you quoting?

    wrote:
    > Those cases are easy ones. They could be cannonically changed to "Latin small e with accent grave"


    Joshua Cranmer wrote:
    >> For the most part, é does not exist in English


    wrote:
    > No it doesn't I would say at all


    Wrong, if by '?' you mean 'é'. It exists all over English.

    Joshua Cranmer wrote:
    >> ... but, e.g., résumé is the proper spelling.


    wrote:
    > I am not a native English speaker,


    Clearly.

    > but I can tell you that anyone writing "r?sum?" is trying
    > to sound impressive/knowledgable and knows that this is a french [sic] word.


    I do speak English natively, and that is not correct. Historically, "résumé"
    was the only correct spelling for that meaning - in English! - but the
    language has drifted toward typographic simplicity. The diaresis has suffered
    a similar fate; it used to be /de rigueur/ for adjacent vowels to coöperate
    from different syllables.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Dec 5, 2010
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Lew

    Lew Guest

    Lew wrote:
    > I do speak English natively, and that is not correct. Historically,
    > "résumé" was the only correct spelling for that meaning - in English! -
    > but the language has drifted toward typographic simplicity.
    > The diaresis [sic]


    dieresis or diæresis, sorry.

    > has suffered a similar fate; it used to be /de rigueur/ for adjacent
    > vowels to coöperate from different syllables.


    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Dec 5, 2010
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. On 12/05/2010 02:28 PM, Lew wrote:
    > I do speak English natively, and that is not correct. Historically,
    > "résumé" was the only correct spelling for that meaning - in English! -
    > but the language has drifted toward typographic simplicity. The diaresis
    > has suffered a similar fate; it used to be /de rigueur/ for adjacent
    > vowels to coöperate from different syllables.


    I can think of a few other words: façade, café, naïve, and a handful of
    other French loanwords. There is also the `æ ligurature', which is all
    but dead (archæology, dæmon, mediæval-- en-US also took a chopping block
    to those `ae' ligatures, giving us archeology instead of archaeology,
    medieval instead of mediaeval, etc.).

    However, modern English also has a tendency to drop accents, just as it
    tends to drop hyphens (to-day -> today, e-mail -> email, etc.).

    --
    Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
    tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth
     
    Joshua Cranmer, Dec 5, 2010
    #3
  4. Lew

    Tom Anderson Guest

    On Sun, 5 Dec 2010, Lew wrote:

    > wrote:
    >> I am not a native English speaker,

    >
    > Clearly.
    >
    >> but I can tell you that anyone writing "r?sum?" is trying
    >> to sound impressive/knowledgable and knows that this is a french [sic]
    >> word.

    >
    > I do speak English natively, and that is not correct. Historically,
    > "r?sum?" was the only correct spelling for that meaning - in English! -
    > but the language has drifted toward typographic simplicity.


    No. Without the acutes, that word is 'resume', and it means 'take up
    again', not 'curriculum vitae'. If someone sent me a CV which called
    itself a resume, it'd go straight in the bin, as we do not hire
    illiterates.

    > The diaresis has suffered a similar fate; it used to be /de rigueur/ for
    > adjacent vowels to co?perate from different syllables.


    I'm not sure anyone except the New Yorker ever actually did this.

    tom

    --
    non, scarecrow, forensics, rituals, bacteria, scientific instruments, ..
     
    Tom Anderson, Dec 6, 2010
    #4
  5. Lew

    Tom Anderson Guest

    On Sun, 5 Dec 2010, Joshua Cranmer wrote:

    > On 12/05/2010 02:28 PM, Lew wrote:
    >> I do speak English natively, and that is not correct. Historically,
    >> "r?sum?" was the only correct spelling for that meaning - in English! -
    >> but the language has drifted toward typographic simplicity. The diaresis
    >> has suffered a similar fate; it used to be /de rigueur/ for adjacent
    >> vowels to co?perate from different syllables.

    >
    > I can think of a few other words: fa?ade, caf?, na?ve, and a handful of
    > other French loanwords.


    You see, i'd reject 'cafe' as incorrect. If you're going to Anglicise it,
    it's 'caff' - or perhaps that's just Eastenderising it. But if you're
    keeping the e, you have to keep the accent, because it affects the way the
    word is pronounced. The same is true of your other examples, but their
    dediacritical forms have come into common use, so i'm sort of immunised
    against them.

    > There is also the `? ligurature', which is all but dead (arch?ology,
    > d?mon, medi?val-- en-US also took a chopping block to those `ae'
    > ligatures, giving us archeology instead of archaeology, medieval instead
    > of mediaeval, etc.).


    Does ligation affect pronunciation? I don't think so, BICBW. That means
    the decay of the ligature to two separate letters is a change in writing
    but not spelling, if you see what mean. The loss of the a is a change in
    spelling, but it's very much in the vein of other Webster-inspired
    differences that have arisen between British and Amaerican English.

    > However, modern English also has a tendency to drop accents, just as it tends
    > to drop hyphens (to-day -> today, e-mail -> email, etc.).


    Isn't this also a change that doesn't change the implied phonetic value?

    I appreciate that talking about the implied phonetic value of English
    words is a somewhat Quixotic activity.

    tom

    --
    non, scarecrow, forensics, rituals, bacteria, scientific instruments, ..
     
    Tom Anderson, Dec 6, 2010
    #5
  6. On 12/06/2010 07:58 AM, Tom Anderson wrote:
    > I appreciate that talking about the implied phonetic value of English
    > words is a somewhat Quixotic activity.


    "Worcester" is pronounced "Woos-ter". I don't think changing an `e' to
    sometimes being pronounced and sometimes not is that big a change in
    orthographic terms. Granted, I am a stickler for the accents, which
    probably relates to my tendency to also prefer hyphenation.

    --
    Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
    tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth
     
    Joshua Cranmer, Dec 6, 2010
    #6
  7. Lew

    Lew Guest

    Joshua Cranmer wrote:
    > On 12/06/2010 07:58 AM, Tom Anderson wrote:
    >
    > > I appreciate that talking about the implied phonetic value of English
    > > words is a somewhat Quixotic activity.

    >
    > "Worcester" is pronounced "Woos-ter". I don't think changing an `e' to
    >


    Or "wurster" in rhotic accents.

    > sometimes being pronounced and sometimes not is that big a change in
    > orthographic terms. Granted, I am a stickler for the accents, which
    > probably relates to my tendency to also prefer hyphenation.
    >


    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Dec 6, 2010
    #7
  8. Lew

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 06-12-2010 07:41, Tom Anderson wrote:
    > On Sun, 5 Dec 2010, Lew wrote:
    >> wrote:
    >>> but I can tell you that anyone writing "r?sum?" is trying
    >>> to sound impressive/knowledgable and knows that this is a french
    >>> [sic] word.

    >>
    >> I do speak English natively, and that is not correct. Historically,
    >> "r?sum?" was the only correct spelling for that meaning - in English!
    >> - but the language has drifted toward typographic simplicity.

    >
    > No. Without the acutes, that word is 'resume', and it means 'take up
    > again', not 'curriculum vitae'. If someone sent me a CV which called
    > itself a resume, it'd go straight in the bin, as we do not hire
    > illiterates.


    Given that Oxford Dictionaries consider it a valid
    usage of resume, then ...

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Dec 8, 2010
    #8
  9. Re: Isn't java.lang.Character.html#{ isLetterFromLang(int codePoint, String ISOLangDef) missing from the spec?

    "Arne Vajhøj" <> wrote in message
    news:4cfee44c$0$23759$...
    > On 06-12-2010 07:41, Tom Anderson wrote:
    >> On Sun, 5 Dec 2010, Lew wrote:
    >>> wrote:
    >>>> but I can tell you that anyone writing "r?sum?" is trying
    >>>> to sound impressive/knowledgable and knows that this is a french
    >>>> [sic] word.
    >>>
    >>> I do speak English natively, and that is not correct. Historically,
    >>> "r?sum?" was the only correct spelling for that meaning - in English!
    >>> - but the language has drifted toward typographic simplicity.

    >>
    >> No. Without the acutes, that word is 'resume', and it means 'take up
    >> again', not 'curriculum vitae'. If someone sent me a CV which called
    >> itself a resume, it'd go straight in the bin, as we do not hire
    >> illiterates.

    >
    > Given that Oxford Dictionaries consider it a valid
    > usage of resume, then ...


    Where are you, Tom? In the US, anyone who put the accents in re'sume' would
    look foolishly pedantic.
     
    Mike Schilling, Dec 8, 2010
    #9
  10. Lew

    Eric Sosman Guest

    [OT] Re: Isn't java.lang.Character.html#{ isLetterFromLang(int codePoint,String ISOLangDef) missing from the spec?

    On 12/7/2010 11:31 PM, Mike Schilling wrote:
    >
    > Where are you, Tom? In the US, anyone who put the accents in re'sume'
    > would look foolishly pedantic.


    In the US, the language is bastardizéd beyond beyond the reach
    of outraged critiquificationizing.

    --
    Eric Sosman
    lid
     
    Eric Sosman, Dec 8, 2010
    #10
  11. Lew

    Tom Anderson Guest

    On Tue, 7 Dec 2010, Mike Schilling wrote:

    > "Arne Vajh?j" <> wrote in message
    > news:4cfee44c$0$23759$...
    >> On 06-12-2010 07:41, Tom Anderson wrote:
    >>> On Sun, 5 Dec 2010, Lew wrote:
    >>>> wrote:
    >>>>> but I can tell you that anyone writing "r?sum?" is trying
    >>>>> to sound impressive/knowledgable and knows that this is a french
    >>>>> [sic] word.
    >>>>
    >>>> I do speak English natively, and that is not correct. Historically,
    >>>> "r?sum?" was the only correct spelling for that meaning - in English!
    >>>> - but the language has drifted toward typographic simplicity.
    >>>
    >>> No. Without the acutes, that word is 'resume', and it means 'take up
    >>> again', not 'curriculum vitae'. If someone sent me a CV which called
    >>> itself a resume, it'd go straight in the bin, as we do not hire
    >>> illiterates.

    >>
    >> Given that Oxford Dictionaries consider it a valid usage of resume,
    >> then ...

    >
    > Where are you, Tom?


    In the UK.

    > In the US, anyone who put the accents in re'sume' would look foolishly
    > pedantic.


    Seriously?

    tom

    --
    resistance is fertile
     
    Tom Anderson, Dec 8, 2010
    #11
  12. Lew

    Lew Guest

    Mike Schilling wrote:
    >> In the US, anyone who put the accents in re'sume' would look foolishly
    >> pedantic.

    >


    Tom Anderson <> wrote:
    > Seriously?
    >


    That's his opinion. It's hardly universal.

    I think anyone who fails to put the accents in looks foolishly
    illiterate, myself.

    --
    Lew
    Born in the USA.
     
    Lew, Dec 8, 2010
    #12
  13. Lew

    Tom Anderson Guest

    On Wed, 8 Dec 2010, Lew wrote:

    > Mike Schilling wrote:
    >>> In the US, anyone who put the accents in re'sume' would look foolishly
    >>> pedantic.

    >
    > Tom Anderson <> wrote:
    >> Seriously?

    >
    > That's his opinion. It's hardly universal.
    >
    > I think anyone who fails to put the accents in looks foolishly
    > illiterate, myself.


    Well, i'm going to make sure that if we open a North American office, it's
    in Quebec, so it's all moot anyway. Vive la poutine!

    tom

    --
    And then, Antilipe. According to Tulse Luper, Antilipe in Syria was
    the home of a unique species of black maritime rook that mated with
    seagulls. That was obviously another Antilipe.
     
    Tom Anderson, Dec 8, 2010
    #13
  14. Lew

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 08-12-2010 16:45, Lew wrote:
    > Mike Schilling wrote:
    >>> In the US, anyone who put the accents in re'sume' would look foolishly
    >>> pedantic.

    >
    > Tom Anderson<> wrote:
    >> Seriously?

    >
    > That's his opinion. It's hardly universal.
    >
    > I think anyone who fails to put the accents in looks foolishly
    > illiterate, myself.


    I find a bit weird to consider somebody that uses a
    valid spelling to be illiterate.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Dec 9, 2010
    #14
  15. Lew

    Eric Sosman Guest

    [OT] Re: Isn't java.lang.Character.html#{ isLetterFromLang(int codePoint,String ISOLangDef) missing from the spec?

    On 12/8/2010 10:01 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    > On 08-12-2010 16:45, Lew wrote:
    >> Mike Schilling wrote:
    >>>> In the US, anyone who put the accents in re'sume' would look foolishly
    >>>> pedantic.

    >>
    >> Tom Anderson<> wrote:
    >>> Seriously?

    >>
    >> That's his opinion. It's hardly universal.
    >>
    >> I think anyone who fails to put the accents in looks foolishly
    >> illiterate, myself.

    >
    > I find a bit weird to consider somebody that uses a
    > valid spelling to be illiterate.


    Come see, come saw.

    --
    Eric Sosman
    lid
     
    Eric Sosman, Dec 9, 2010
    #15
  16. Lew

    Lew Guest

    Re: [OT] Re: Isn't java.lang.Character.html#{ isLetterFromLang(intcodePoint, String ISOLangDef) missing from the spec?

    On 12/08/2010 10:52 PM, Eric Sosman wrote:
    > On 12/8/2010 10:01 PM,

    Lew wrote:
    >>> I think anyone who fails to put the accents in looks foolishly
    >>> illiterate, myself.


    Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    >> I find a bit weird to consider somebody that uses a
    >> valid spelling to be illiterate.


    > Come see, come saw.


    Arne's right - I don't literally consider such people illiterate, just ignant.
    But the use of hyperbole is a well-established rhetorical device. I guess
    Arne was just being deucedly literal-minded. I thought it obvious that I was
    exaggerating, or speaking colloquially, but I guess not to all.

    But it's still true that not all Americans see "résumé" as a hi-falutin
    spelling, but as the educated spelling. Only anti-intellectuals would view
    that as snobbish.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Dec 9, 2010
    #16
  17. Re: [OT] Re: Isn't java.lang.Character.html#{ isLetterFromLang(intcodePoint, String ISOLangDef) missing from the spec?

    On 08-12-2010 23:05, Lew wrote:
    > On 12/08/2010 10:52 PM, Eric Sosman wrote:
    >> On 12/8/2010 10:01 PM,

    > Lew wrote:
    >>>> I think anyone who fails to put the accents in looks foolishly
    >>>> illiterate, myself.

    >
    > Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    >>> I find a bit weird to consider somebody that uses a
    >>> valid spelling to be illiterate.

    >
    >> Come see, come saw.

    >
    > Arne's right - I don't literally consider such people illiterate, just
    > ignant. But the use of hyperbole is a well-established rhetorical
    > device. I guess Arne was just being deucedly literal-minded. I thought
    > it obvious that I was exaggerating, or speaking colloquially, but I
    > guess not to all.
    >
    > But it's still true that not all Americans see "résumé" as a hi-falutin
    > spelling, but as the educated spelling. Only anti-intellectuals would
    > view that as snobbish.


    I don't even know what "deucedly" means (or did not - Google).

    In general playing with the language usually does not
    work well in world wide foras, because often the real
    meaning is only obvious to the native speakers.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Dec 10, 2010
    #17
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Schnoffos
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    1,236
    Martien Verbruggen
    Jun 27, 2003
  2. aling
    Replies:
    8
    Views:
    978
    Jim Langston
    Oct 20, 2005
  3. Arne Vajhøj
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    282
    Arne Vajhøj
    Dec 5, 2010
  4. Joshua Cranmer
    Replies:
    5
    Views:
    326
    Tom Anderson
    Dec 5, 2010
  5. Arne Vajhøj
    Replies:
    10
    Views:
    415
    Arne Vajhøj
    Dec 8, 2010
Loading...

Share This Page