Re: Latest draft of C++ 11 Organization: Roundhouse Consulting, Ltd.

Discussion in 'C++' started by Alexander Terekhov, Jun 10, 2011.

  1. (forward inline for later googling...)

    "reject:[off-topic,nothing new,missing context] #3661
    (comp.lang.c++.moderated)"

    -------- Original Message --------
    Message-ID: <>
    Newsgroups: comp.lang.c++.moderated
    From: Alexander Terekhov <>
    Reply-To:
    Subject: Re: Latest draft of C++ 11 Organization: Roundhouse Consulting,
    Ltd.
    Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
    References: <RxWGp.17946$1.easynews.com>
    <2011060517051635155-pete@versatilecodingcom>
    <>
    <>
    <isksp0$r28$>
    <>
    <>
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
    X-Original-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:06:06 +0200
    X-Submission-Address:

    { your post doesn't add any new technical C++ content nor does it seem
    to address points presented in the quoted text (did you snip away
    too much?) if you would like to discuss the standardization process,
    consider adding some words to that effect and posting in comp.std.c++.
    thanks. -mod }

    Bo Persson wrote:
    [...]
    > The people doing the work have to pay as well, for being voting
    > members and allowed to do the work. I'm sure they are happy if as many
    > as possible get the results of their work, but for it to be an
    > official international standard we need the international standards
    > organization as well. And that has a cost.


    http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/index.html

    "Ecma Standards and Technical Reports are made available as download to
    all interested persons or organizations, free of charge in PDF format
    (to obtain a PDF reader, go to e.g. the Adobe webpage or to a free
    software PDF reader). All Ecma Standards and Technical Reports are
    covered by the Ecma copyright disclaimer."

    http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/DISCLAIMER.pdf

    ""DISCLAIMER

    This document and possible translations of it may be copied and
    furnished to others, and derivative works that comment on or otherwise
    explain it or assist in its implementation may be prepared, copied,
    published, and distributed, in whole or in part, without restriction of
    any kind, provided that the above copyright notice and this section are
    included on all such copies and derivative works. However, this document
    itself may not be modified in any way, including by removing the
    copyright notice or references to Ecma International, except as needed
    for the purpose of developing any document or deliverable produced by
    Ecma International (in which case the rules applied to copyrights must
    be followed) or as required to translate it into languages other than
    English.

    The limited permissions granted above are perpetual and will not be
    revoked by Ecma International or its successors or assigns.

    This document and the information contained herein is provided on an "AS
    IS" basis and ECMA INTERNATIONAL DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR
    IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY WARRANTY THAT THE USE OF THE
    INFORMATION HEREIN WILL NOT INFRINGE ANY OWNERSHIP RIGHTS OR ANY IMPLIED
    WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE."

    regards,
    alexander.


    --
    [ See http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm for info about ]
    [ comp.lang.c++.moderated. First time posters: Do this! ]
    Alexander Terekhov, Jun 10, 2011
    #1
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  2. Alexander Terekhov

    Öö Tiib Guest

    Öö Tiib, Jun 10, 2011
    #2
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  3. Alexander Terekhov, Jun 10, 2011
    #3
  4. On 10 juin, 13:28, Alexander Terekhov <> wrote:
    > Öö Tiib wrote:
    >
    > > On Jun 10, 1:05 pm, Alexander Terekhov <> wrote or
    > > actually copy-pasted:

    >
    > > >http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/index.html
    > > >http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/DISCLAIMER.pdf

    >
    > > I didn't get what was your point? . . .

    >
    > The point is that C++ should get rid of ISO and go to ECMA.


    ECMA is not governmental and driven by companies. I am not sure it
    would best serve the interest of all. With this organization, C++/CLI
    would already be standard C++.

    --
    Michael
    Michael Doubez, Jun 10, 2011
    #4
  5. Alexander Terekhov

    Balog Pal Guest

    "Alexander Terekhov" <>

    > The point is that C++ should get rid of ISO and go to ECMA.


    Alex, I could not make out how you address Pete Becker's problem. He claimed
    that his costs using ECMA would be like $15000 vs. the ISO verson's $1200.
    It is a serious difference.

    Do you think it's made up? If not, what is the supposed solution?
    Balog Pal, Jun 10, 2011
    #5
  6. Michael Doubez wrote:
    >
    > On 10 juin, 13:28, Alexander Terekhov <> wrote:
    > > Öö Tiib wrote:
    > >
    > > > On Jun 10, 1:05 pm, Alexander Terekhov <> wrote or
    > > > actually copy-pasted:

    > >
    > > > >http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/index.html
    > > > >http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/DISCLAIMER.pdf

    > >
    > > > I didn't get what was your point? . . .

    > >
    > > The point is that C++ should get rid of ISO and go to ECMA.

    >
    > ECMA is not governmental


    Right, that is the key point.

    > and driven by companies. I am not sure it


    Not for profit members such as open source orgs, research institutes,
    and government orgs do not pay ECMA membership fees and can vote on
    technical committee level, but not on general assembly meetings. See:

    http://www.ecma-international.org/memento/NFP.htm

    "British Library ... Mozilla Foundation ... Stanford University ... The
    Library of Congress ... US Department of Defense"

    > would best serve the interest of all. With this organization, C++/CLI
    > would already be standard C++.


    regards,
    alexander.
    Alexander Terekhov, Jun 10, 2011
    #6
  7. Balog Pal wrote:
    >
    > "Alexander Terekhov" <>
    >
    > > The point is that C++ should get rid of ISO and go to ECMA.

    >
    > Alex, I could not make out how you address Pete Becker's problem. He claimed
    > that his costs using ECMA would be like $15000 vs. the ISO verson's $1200.
    > It is a serious difference.
    >
    > Do you think it's made up? If not, what is the supposed solution?


    <Forward Inline>

    -------- Original Message --------
    Message-ID: <>
    Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 11:46:28 +0200
    From: Alexander Terekhov <>
    Reply-To:
    X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
    X-Accept-Language: en
    MIME-Version: 1.0
    Newsgroups: comp.lang.c++.moderated
    Subject: Re: Latest draft of C++ 11 Organization: Roundhouse Consulting,
    Ltd.
    References:
    <RxWGp.17946$1.easynews.com><>
    <2011060911283666605-pete@versatilecodingcom>
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


    Pete Becker wrote:
    >
    > On 2011-06-09 05:49:35 -1000, Alexander Terekhov said:
    >
    > > John G Harris wrote:
    > > [...]
    > >> Or you could put the language under the control of a large company
    > >> willing to pay the costs. But what influence do you have over the next
    > >> issue of Java and C#?

    > >
    > > Java aside, C# is Standard ECMA-334:
    > >
    > > http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-334.htm
    > >
    > > and it is available free of charge.

    >
    > Last time I looked, it would have cost me $15,000 per year to
    > participate in ECMA. For ISO, through INCITS, the fee is $1200. It's
    > very generous of you to suggest that I pay over ten times as much as I


    You do know that not for profit orgs such as open source orgs, research
    institutes, and government orgs don't pay ECMA membership fees (and
    still can vote on technical committee level, but not on general assembly
    meetings), right?

    "British Library ... Mozilla Foundation ... Stanford University ... The
    Library of Congress ... US Department of Defense"

    http://www.ecma-international.org/memento/NFP.htm

    "... next category is the small private company. This has a maximum of 5
    employees and annual revenues of $5 million per year. Usually startups
    or very small private companies. The membership fee is 3,500 swiss
    francs per year. The next one is a better known term, the SME (small
    medium enterprise). The only qualification is that it must have a
    turnover (annual revenues) of $75 million. SMEs pay 17,500 swiss francs
    per year in dues. There's no initiation fee. If you apply in a certain
    six month period, invoicing starts at the beginning of the next
    "semester." Semesters begin on January 1 and July 1. But you get
    voting rights on a technical level as soon as you join, even though you
    haven't paid yet. Ordinary members, the highest level pays 70,000
    francs. Associate Members pay 35,000 francs per year. If you want to
    be in the management of the association — in other words be involved at
    both a technical and the management level — getting the rights to decide
    on budget, who is president, etc., then you must apply for ordinary
    membership. Theoretically, everyone can apply. but if you were a small
    private company, I guess you wouldn't do that because it is too
    expensive. If you want to have the rights to chair technical committees
    and do not qualify for one of the first three categories, then you can
    apply for an associate membership. "

    http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/page/interview-with-ecmas-secretarie-general/2259

    > currently do so that you can get a free copy of the standard.


    regards,
    alexander.
    Alexander Terekhov, Jun 10, 2011
    #7
  8. On 10 juin, 14:32, Alexander Terekhov <> wrote:
    > Michael Doubez wrote:
    >
    > > On 10 juin, 13:28, Alexander Terekhov <> wrote:
    > > > Öö Tiib wrote:

    >
    > > > > On Jun 10, 1:05 pm, Alexander Terekhov <> wrote or
    > > > > actually copy-pasted:

    >
    > > > > >http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/index.html
    > > > > >http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/DISCLAIMER.pdf

    >
    > > > > I didn't get what was your point? . . .

    >
    > > > The point is that C++ should get rid of ISO and go to ECMA.

    >
    > > ECMA is not governmental

    >
    > Right, that is the key point.


    And it is a point again ECMA.

    >
    > >                          and driven by companies. I am not sure it

    >
    > Not for profit members such as open source orgs, research institutes,
    > and government orgs do not pay ECMA membership fees and can vote on
    > technical committee level, but not on general assembly meetings. See:
    >
    > http://www.ecma-international.org/memento/NFP.htm
    >
    > "British Library ... Mozilla Foundation ... Stanford University ... The
    > Library of Congress ... US Department of Defense"


    Still. People remember the ODF vs. OpenXml.

    The only reproach that can be done to ISO is that they accepted two
    competing standards. And ECMA was instrumental to that.

    > > would best serve the interest of all. With this organization, C++/CLI
    > > would already be standard C++.


    Wouldn't it ?

    --
    Michael
    Michael Doubez, Jun 10, 2011
    #8
  9. Michael Doubez wrote:
    [...]
    > Still. People remember the ODF vs. OpenXml.


    Funny that you mention that... in embarrassment to Pete Becker,

    http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail?csnumber=43485
    (ISO/IEC 26300:2006)

    http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail?csnumber=51463
    (ISO/IEC 29500-1:2008)

    both Open Document Format and Open XML standards can be downloaded for
    free from iso.org.

    See also:

    ISO/IEC 29500-1:2008/Amd.1:2010
    ISO/IEC 29500-2:2008
    ISO/IEC 29500-3:2008
    ISO/IEC 29500-4:2008
    ISO/IEC 29500-4:2008/Amd.1:2010

    regards,
    alexander.
    Alexander Terekhov, Jun 10, 2011
    #9
  10. Alexander Terekhov

    Ian Collins Guest

    Ian Collins, Jun 10, 2011
    #10
  11. On Jun 10, 4:20 pm, Ian Collins <> wrote:
    > On 06/10/11 11:28 PM, Alexander Terekhov wrote:
    > > The point is that C++ should get rid of ISO and go to ECMA.

    >
    > All this moaning over a $20 odd download?


    Yes, it's a rising sense of entitlement. The self-centered ignorant
    masses expect others to work for them for free. Furthermore, if by
    some accident, an individual earns money, the masses expect to take
    that money away from those individuals through taxation.

    To phrase it a bit differently: stupid has a gravitational pull.

    KHD
    Keith H Duggar, Jun 11, 2011
    #11
  12. Ian Collins wrote:
    >
    > On 06/10/11 11:28 PM, Alexander Terekhov wrote:
    > >
    > > Öö Tiib wrote:
    > >>
    > >> On Jun 10, 1:05 pm, Alexander Terekhov<> wrote or
    > >> actually copy-pasted:
    > >>
    > >>> http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/index.html
    > >>> http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/DISCLAIMER.pdf
    > >>
    > >> I didn't get what was your point? . . .

    > >
    > > The point is that C++ should get rid of ISO and go to ECMA.

    >
    > All this moaning over a $20 odd download?


    INCITS/ISO/IEC 14882-2003 price is $30, not $20.

    ISO/IEC 14882:2003 is priced at "$381.00 Full MBR Price: $304.80"
    (British BS ISO/IEC 14882:2003 Price: $622.00)

    http://webstore.ansi.org/FindStanda...=0&PageNum=0&SearchTermsArray=null|14882|null

    ISO should sue INCITS (ANSI) for price dumping to begin with.

    But why should I pay even 20 cents to american national body ONLY given
    that other national bodies are also involved in the process?

    Note also that a whole bunch of ISO standards are available for free to
    download (just like *all* ECMA standards).

    regards,
    alexander.
    Alexander Terekhov, Jun 11, 2011
    #12
  13. Keith H Duggar wrote:
    >
    > On Jun 10, 4:20 pm, Ian Collins <> wrote:
    > > On 06/10/11 11:28 PM, Alexander Terekhov wrote:
    > > > The point is that C++ should get rid of ISO and go to ECMA.

    > >
    > > All this moaning over a $20 odd download?

    >
    > Yes, it's a rising sense of entitlement. The self-centered ignorant
    > masses expect others to work for them for free. Furthermore, if by
    > some accident, an individual earns money, the masses expect to take
    > that money away from those individuals through taxation.
    >
    > To phrase it a bit differently: stupid has a gravitational pull.


    C++ standardization does NOT rely on sales of the standard.

    regards,
    alexander.
    Alexander Terekhov, Jun 11, 2011
    #13
  14. Alexander Terekhov

    Ian Collins Guest

    On 06/11/11 10:53 PM, Alexander Terekhov wrote:
    >
    > Ian Collins wrote:
    >>
    >> On 06/10/11 11:28 PM, Alexander Terekhov wrote:
    >>>
    >>> Öö Tiib wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>> On Jun 10, 1:05 pm, Alexander Terekhov<> wrote or
    >>>> actually copy-pasted:
    >>>>
    >>>>> http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/index.html
    >>>>> http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/DISCLAIMER.pdf
    >>>>
    >>>> I didn't get what was your point? . . .
    >>>
    >>> The point is that C++ should get rid of ISO and go to ECMA.

    >>
    >> All this moaning over a $20 odd download?

    >
    > INCITS/ISO/IEC 14882-2003 price is $30, not $20.


    $20, $30, who cares? How much of you time would that buy?

    > ISO should sue INCITS (ANSI) for price dumping to begin with.


    They can sue the BSI while they are at it:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Standard-In...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1307791522&sr=1-1

    --
    Ian Collins
    Ian Collins, Jun 11, 2011
    #14
  15. Ian Collins wrote:
    >
    > On 06/11/11 10:53 PM, Alexander Terekhov wrote:
    > >
    > > Ian Collins wrote:
    > >>
    > >> On 06/10/11 11:28 PM, Alexander Terekhov wrote:
    > >>>
    > >>> Öö Tiib wrote:
    > >>>>
    > >>>> On Jun 10, 1:05 pm, Alexander Terekhov<> wrote or
    > >>>> actually copy-pasted:
    > >>>>
    > >>>>> http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/index.html
    > >>>>> http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/DISCLAIMER.pdf
    > >>>>
    > >>>> I didn't get what was your point? . . .
    > >>>
    > >>> The point is that C++ should get rid of ISO and go to ECMA.
    > >>
    > >> All this moaning over a $20 odd download?

    > >
    > > INCITS/ISO/IEC 14882-2003 price is $30, not $20.

    >
    > $20, $30, who cares? How much of you time would that buy?


    Not much of my time and so what?

    Why should I pay even 20 cents to american national body ONLY given that
    other national bodies are also involved in the process?

    C++ standardization does NOT rely on sales of the standard.

    >
    > > ISO should sue INCITS (ANSI) for price dumping to begin with.

    >
    > They can sue the BSI while they are at it:
    >
    > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Standard-In...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1307791522&sr=1-1


    Does the latest draft of C++ 11 cost $36.91 as well?

    http://coinmill.com/GBP_USD.html#GBP=22.66

    Do you have a link?

    regards,
    alexander.
    Alexander Terekhov, Jun 11, 2011
    #15
  16. * Ian Collins:

    > On 06/10/11 11:28 PM, Alexander Terekhov wrote:
    >>
    >> Öö Tiib wrote:
    >>>
    >>> On Jun 10, 1:05 pm, Alexander Terekhov<> wrote or
    >>> actually copy-pasted:
    >>>
    >>>> http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/index.html
    >>>> http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/DISCLAIMER.pdf
    >>>
    >>> I didn't get what was your point? . . .

    >>
    >> The point is that C++ should get rid of ISO and go to ECMA.

    >
    > All this moaning over a $20 odd download?


    The ISO download for C++03 costs about $450, but:

    Is there a promise from INCITS that there will be a low-cost download
    for the C++0X text after it's been finalized?

    Will Wiley publish the British standard in book form, with more
    traditional pricing?
    Florian Weimer, Jun 11, 2011
    #16
  17. * Keith H. Duggar:

    > Yes, it's a rising sense of entitlement. The self-centered ignorant
    > masses expect others to work for them for free.


    Doesn't the C++ standardization committee work for free for the
    relevant national standardization bodies and ISO?
    Florian Weimer, Jun 11, 2011
    #17
  18. * Balog Pal:

    > "Alexander Terekhov" <>
    >
    >> The point is that C++ should get rid of ISO and go to ECMA.

    >
    > Alex, I could not make out how you address Pete Becker's problem. He
    > claimed that his costs using ECMA would be like $15000 vs. the ISO
    > verson's $1200. It is a serious difference.
    >
    > Do you think it's made up? If not, what is the supposed solution?


    It's actually $20,000 if you're beyond the small company threshold.
    That's pretty steep, agreed. But even that is dwarfed by
    travel-related costs (involvement in actual editing decisions at ISO
    require physical presence, so the largest travel budget wins).

    On the other hand, the ISO model still loses financially when you
    actually need a couple of standards. Membership in national
    standardization bodies typically gives you a cheap site license, but
    you still have to buy one copy of each standard you're interested in.
    Florian Weimer, Jun 11, 2011
    #18
  19. On Jun 11, 5:51 pm, Florian Weimer <> wrote:
    > * Keith H. Duggar:
    >
    > > Yes, it's a rising sense of entitlement. The self-centered ignorant
    > > masses expect others to work for them for free.

    >
    > Doesn't the C++ standardization committee work for free for the
    > relevant national standardization bodies and ISO?


    No. ISO provides infrastructure, maintenance, servicing, etc (in
    other words they perform work) in exchange for membership fees,
    publishing rights, technical contribution, etc from the members.
    ISO currently receives roughly 35% of it's revenue from sales
    and service. So clearly 1) sales are an important revenue stream
    for them 2) they are providing economically valuable work.

    In any case, what does volunteer work and/or mutual agreement have
    to do with Alexander demanding the work of /others/ for free? ISO
    has something Alexander wants. ISO asks for compensation in return
    for giving him what he wants. If they mutually agree to the terms
    then a transaction can happen. If they don't it doesn't. Economics
    (and life for that matter) does not get any simpler than that.

    KHD
    Keith H Duggar, Jun 11, 2011
    #19
  20. * Keith H. Duggar:

    > On Jun 11, 5:51 pm, Florian Weimer <> wrote:
    >> * Keith H. Duggar:
    >>
    >> > Yes, it's a rising sense of entitlement. The self-centered ignorant
    >> > masses expect others to work for them for free.

    >>
    >> Doesn't the C++ standardization committee work for free for the
    >> relevant national standardization bodies and ISO?

    >
    > No. ISO provides infrastructure, maintenance, servicing, etc (in
    > other words they perform work) in exchange for membership fees,
    > publishing rights, technical contribution, etc from the members.
    > ISO currently receives roughly 35% of it's revenue from sales
    > and service. So clearly 1) sales are an important revenue stream
    > for them 2) they are providing economically valuable work.


    This wasn't my question. Clearly, ISO spends membership fees on
    something.

    > In any case, what does volunteer work and/or mutual agreement have
    > to do with Alexander demanding the work of /others/ for free? ISO
    > has something Alexander wants. ISO asks for compensation in return
    > for giving him what he wants. If they mutually agree to the terms
    > then a transaction can happen. If they don't it doesn't. Economics
    > (and life for that matter) does not get any simpler than that.


    ISO didn't compensate the authors and editors, either. A bit like the
    major record label who makes quite a few bucks by selling an album by
    some minor band, and curiously, none of it actually ends up at the
    band. Perhaps this analogy explains why the situation is a bit
    puzzling.
    Florian Weimer, Jun 12, 2011
    #20
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