Re: Need training suggestion

Discussion in 'C Programming' started by twallah, Aug 16, 2003.

  1. twallah

    twallah Guest

    I don't believe I've ever read so much misinformation on a topic in one
    thread -- outside of slahdot.org.



    There seem to be a lot of people who believe that their preferred style
    of learning should be mandatory for everyone else. I can only assume
    that all the posters in this thread are students who've never worked in
    the real world. You get paid for getting the job done, kids, not
    spouting religious doctrine.



    I'm also alarmed at the number of people who don't have a clue that core
    C is a very small language. Most of what is needed to code real software
    is extension. Nearly all the silliest comments were from people who
    thought that what they'd learned about the extensions for their
    particular platform were "correct" and that everybody else is "wrong".



    Sign me, disgusted.


    --
    Posted via http://dbforums.com
    twallah, Aug 16, 2003
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. twallah

    Matt Gregory Guest

    twallah wrote:

    > I don't believe I've ever read so much misinformation on a topic in one
    > thread -- outside of slahdot.org.
    >
    >
    >
    > There seem to be a lot of people who believe that their preferred style
    > of learning should be mandatory for everyone else. I can only assume
    > that all the posters in this thread are students who've never worked in
    > the real world. You get paid for getting the job done, kids, not
    > spouting religious doctrine.


    I work for the National Coalition To Reinstate The Ubiquitousness Of Global
    Variables you insensitive clod!
    Matt Gregory, Aug 17, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Matt Gregory <> wrote in
    <S0A%a.17528$>:

    >I work for the National Coalition To Reinstate The Ubiquitousness
    >Of Global Variables


    Do you know by chance if they have any job vacancies?

    --
    If it's not on fire, it's a software problem.
    Irrwahn Grausewitz, Aug 17, 2003
    #3
  4. Irrwahn Grausewitz wrote:

    > Matt Gregory <> wrote in
    > <S0A%a.17528$>:
    >
    >>I work for the National Coalition To Reinstate The Ubiquitousness
    >>Of Global Variables

    >
    > Do you know by chance if they have any job vacancies?


    First assumption: The NCRUGV lives up to its name, and is not hypocritical.
    Second assumption: The NCRUGV manages its affairs via computer systems.

    First deduction: In their computer system, the number of job vacancies
    currently open at the NCRUGV is held in a global variable.
    Second deduction: You can see that variable wherever in the world you may
    happen to be.
    Third deduction: If you don't like the value, you can change it.

    Conclusion: If you want a job at the NCRUGV, you shouldn't have a major
    problem obtaining one.

    This is one of the problems with global variables.

    --
    Richard Heathfield :
    "Usenet is a strange place." - Dennis M Ritchie, 29 July 1999.
    C FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
    K&R answers, C books, etc: http://users.powernet.co.uk/eton
    Richard Heathfield, Aug 17, 2003
    #4
  5. twallah wrote:

    >
    > I don't believe I've ever read so much misinformation on a topic in one
    > thread -- outside of slahdot.org.


    Stick around a little longer, then.

    > There seem to be a lot of people who believe that their preferred style
    > of learning should be mandatory for everyone else.


    That's correct. There are many such people.

    > I can only assume
    > that all the posters in this thread are students who've never worked in
    > the real world.


    It is ironic that yours is the only post in the thread that my newsreader
    has shown me. I can only assume that the thread is a little old.

    > You get paid for getting the job done, kids, not
    > spouting religious doctrine.


    Sure. But what some people consider to be religious doctrine, others
    consider to be common sense.

    > I'm also alarmed at the number of people who don't have a clue that core
    > C is a very small language.


    Small, but extremely well designed.

    > Most of what is needed to code real software
    > is extension.


    What a silly thing to say. Any real-world program can, with a little care,
    be written about 95%-99% in ISO C. The amount of extension /required/ is
    somewhere between tiny and non-existent (as opposed to the amount of
    extension typically /applied/).


    > Nearly all the silliest comments were from people who
    > thought that what they'd learned about the extensions for their
    > particular platform were "correct" and that everybody else is "wrong".


    "Their particular platform"? What a strange idea.

    --
    Richard Heathfield :
    "Usenet is a strange place." - Dennis M Ritchie, 29 July 1999.
    C FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
    K&R answers, C books, etc: http://users.powernet.co.uk/eton
    Richard Heathfield, Aug 17, 2003
    #5
  6. twallah

    Malcolm Guest

    "Richard Heathfield" <> wrote in
    >
    > What a silly thing to say. Any real-world program can, with a little
    > care, be written about 95%-99% in ISO C. The amount of
    > extension /required/ is somewhere between tiny and non-existent (as
    > opposed to the amount of extension typically /applied/).
    >

    I've just written a simple game in Windows (unfortunately I can't tell you
    what it is because it has been submitted for publication).
    One source file was in ANSI C, and about four in Windows. The problem is
    that Windows does require a lot of code to support it - for instance if you
    want a simple button
    1) The CreateWindow() function takes up about ten lines to create the
    button.
    2) The define for the button ID takes one line
    3) A message handler takes two lines in the Window Procedure.
    4) The handling routine almost certainly can't be ISO C since if the button
    does anything you will probably need to redraw something somewhere, which
    requires two lines of Windows code.

    That means to add a button, the simplest UI item, we need to touch the code
    in four places and have 15 lines of overhead. That's before the handling
    routine does any work.

    It does vary from program to program . For instance, my program is two
    player. I did toy with the idea of adding computer AI but because of the
    nature of the thing it was very difficult to develop. A really good AI
    system would have been all ISO C and would have added a massive amount of
    code to the project.
    Malcolm, Aug 17, 2003
    #6
  7. Malcolm wrote:

    >
    > "Richard Heathfield" <> wrote in
    >>
    >> What a silly thing to say. Any real-world program can, with a little
    >> care, be written about 95%-99% in ISO C. The amount of
    >> extension /required/ is somewhere between tiny and non-existent (as
    >> opposed to the amount of extension typically /applied/).
    >>

    > I've just written a simple game in Windows (unfortunately I can't tell you
    > what it is because it has been submitted for publication).
    > One source file was in ANSI C, and about four in Windows. The problem is
    > that Windows does require a lot of code to support it


    Yes, but. :)

    > - for instance if
    > you want a simple button
    > 1) The CreateWindow() function takes up about ten lines to create the
    > button.


    But that can be abstracted away.

    > 2) The define for the button ID takes one line


    Granted.

    > 3) A message handler takes two lines in the Window Procedure.


    One in my code, but okay.

    > 4) The handling routine almost certainly can't be ISO C since if the
    > button does anything you will probably need to redraw something somewhere,
    > which requires two lines of Windows code.


    Again, you can wrap this stuff.

    >
    > That means to add a button, the simplest UI item, we need to touch the
    > code in four places and have 15 lines of overhead. That's before the
    > handling routine does any work.


    No, that means that you have all this non-portable overhead if and only if
    you don't take the time to abstract it away. Now, I will agree that such
    abstraction is not trivial, and therefore not necessarily cheap, but it is
    certainly possible.

    > It does vary from program to program .


    Indeed.

    > For instance, my program is two
    > player. I did toy with the idea of adding computer AI but because of the
    > nature of the thing it was very difficult to develop. A really good AI
    > system would have been all ISO C and would have added a massive amount of
    > code to the project.


    Well, this is (partly) my point - the less trivial the application, the more
    the logic dominates, rather than the interface, and the logic can be
    written portably. The interface is harder to abstract, sure, but it /can/
    be done (and /is/ done, especially on sites where the ability to port
    quickly is paramount).

    --
    Richard Heathfield :
    "Usenet is a strange place." - Dennis M Ritchie, 29 July 1999.
    C FAQ: http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html
    K&R answers, C books, etc: http://users.powernet.co.uk/eton
    Richard Heathfield, Aug 17, 2003
    #7
  8. twallah

    CBFalconer Guest

    Richard Heathfield wrote:
    > Malcolm wrote:
    >

    .... snip ...
    >
    > > For instance, my program is two player. I did toy with the idea
    > > of adding computer AI but because of the nature of the thing it
    > > was very difficult to develop. A really good AI system would
    > > have been all ISO C and would have added a massive amount of
    >> code to the project.

    >
    > Well, this is (partly) my point - the less trivial the application,
    > the more the logic dominates, rather than the interface, and the
    > logic can be written portably. The interface is harder to abstract,
    > sure, but it /can/ be done (and /is/ done, especially on sites
    > where the ability to port quickly is paramount).


    My recommendation, for the original write, is to assume the
    interface you want. Write stubs for those. Paramatize as needed
    (within reason) to reduce the number of stubs. For initial
    development the stubs can be implemented as simply as you wish for
    your system, quite likely using only stdin/stdout. However the
    stub code is all separated into customizable files.

    When the main system is approaching sanity, write the pretty
    interfaces. If doing so causes you to revise the overall
    interface, make the appropriate changes in the simple one too.
    This may involve dummy do-nothing functions, such as set window
    dimensions, etc.

    Meanwhile the main system has always been compiled restricted to
    pure standard and portable C.

    I.E sneak up on it.

    --
    Chuck F () ()
    Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
    <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> USE worldnet address!
    CBFalconer, Aug 17, 2003
    #8
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Replies:
    5
    Views:
    540
    Ray Andraka
    Mar 3, 2005
  2. msnews.microsoft.com

    Need Your Suggestion.

    msnews.microsoft.com, Jul 25, 2005, in forum: ASP .Net
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    371
    Peter Rilling
    Jul 25, 2005
  3. Hugo Flores
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    314
    Steve C. Orr [MVP, MCSD]
    Jul 29, 2005
  4. VB Programmer

    Need good configurable forum... suggestion?

    VB Programmer, Oct 14, 2005, in forum: ASP .Net
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    362
    =?Utf-8?B?UGF0Qg==?=
    Oct 14, 2005
  5. mank

    need suggestion

    mank, Sep 29, 2004, in forum: Java
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    599
Loading...

Share This Page