Re: new webmaster

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Zak McGregor, Aug 6, 2003.

  1. Zak McGregor

    Zak McGregor Guest

    On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:56:03 +0200, Sid Ismail <"Sid Ismail"
    <>> wrote:

    > On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 21:03:02 +0200, "grzesio" <>
    > wrote:


    [snip]

    > http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9605.html


    [snip]

    > http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9605.html


    [snip]

    > http://www.useit.com/alertbox/991003.html


    [snip]

    I'd caution against using Nielsen's advice to anyone. Whilst once he may
    have made sense and spoken with good intent, these days he's far too cosy
    with a certain software company for my liking. A software company whose
    flagship product Nielsen himself once famously referred to as "99% bad".
    I agreed with him then, but today his heart seems to be in a different
    place. All IMHO of course.

    Ciao

    Zak

    --
    ========================================================================
    http://www.carfolio.com/ Searchable database of 10 000+ car specs
    ========================================================================
     
    Zak McGregor, Aug 6, 2003
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. "Zak McGregor" <> wrote in message
    news:bgqcak$ijg$...
    > On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:56:03 +0200, Sid Ismail <"Sid Ismail"
    > <>> wrote:
    >


    > I'd caution against using Nielsen's advice to anyone. Whilst once he may
    > have made sense and spoken with good intent, these days he's far too cosy
    > with a certain software company for my liking. A software company whose
    > flagship product Nielsen himself once famously referred to as "99% bad".
    > I agreed with him then, but today his heart seems to be in a different
    > place. All IMHO of course.


    At best, that would mean that one shouldn't blindly heed his advice when it
    comes to discussions of that company's products.

    Nevertheless, logic dictates that it is the message, not the messenger.
    The truth of an argument is dictated not by the speaker but by the words
    spoken.


    --
    Karl Core

    Charles Sweeney says my sig is fine as it is.
     
    EightNineThree, Aug 6, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Zak McGregor

    Zak McGregor Guest

    On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 12:47:58 +0200, EightNineThree <"EightNineThree"
    <>> wrote:

    >> I'd caution against using Nielsen's advice to anyone. Whilst once he
    >> may have made sense and spoken with good intent, these days he's far
    >> too cosy with a certain software company for my liking. A software
    >> company whose flagship product Nielsen himself once famously referred
    >> to as "99% bad". I agreed with him then, but today his heart seems to
    >> be in a different place. All IMHO of course.

    >
    > At best, that would mean that one shouldn't blindly heed his advice when
    > it comes to discussions of that company's products.


    I'm not sure you could leave it there actually.

    > Nevertheless, logic dictates that it is the message, not the messenger.
    > The truth of an argument is dictated not by the speaker but by the words
    > spoken.


    You've chosen to frame the response so. However it isn't simply a case of
    the message being more than the messenger. In this case the subject is on
    the one hand reknowned for a certain position on things relating to web
    development but on the other hand is being paid by a company whose very
    products are the antithesis of said positions. Which of these two
    conflicting forces will come out top? How far will one affect the other?
    It is impossible to say, therefore in my opinion nothing the man says or
    said can be considered. Sure, there are points which he made that were
    valid and still are, but the risk of swallowing propaganda dressed up to
    look like pearls of wisdom is far too great - especially for a newbie.

    I guess I'm what I'm trying to say is that he has lost all credibility in
    my eyes and therefore what he says and what he has said cannot be trusted.

    Ciao

    Zak

    --
    ========================================================================
    http://www.carfolio.com/ Searchable database of 10 000+ car specs
    ========================================================================
     
    Zak McGregor, Aug 6, 2003
    #3
  4. Zak McGregor wrote:

    > I guess I'm what I'm trying to say is that he has lost all credibility in
    > my eyes and therefore what he says and what he has said cannot be
    > trusted.


    Well, the articles Sid pointed to were all published pre-2002, when Jakob
    took up his job at Macromedia.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS | mailto: | pgp:0x6A2A7D39
    aim:inka80 | icq:6622880 | yahoo:tobyink | jabber:
    http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/ | "You've got spam!"
    playing://(nothing)
     
    Toby A Inkster, Aug 6, 2003
    #4
  5. Zak McGregor

    Isofarro Guest

    Zak McGregor wrote:

    > I'd caution against using Nielsen's advice to anyone. Whilst once he may
    > have made sense and spoken with good intent, these days he's far too cosy
    > with a certain software company for my liking. A software company whose
    > flagship product Nielsen himself once famously referred to as "99% bad".


    You make it sound like Flash accessibility hasn't improved since he made the
    initial statement. What you are eluding too is that you will refuse to
    recognise any improvements in usability and accessibility because the
    product was initially flawed in the past.

    Is that supposed to be a form of encouragement? You'd rather they drop Flash
    entirely rather than fix the problems?


    --
    Iso.
    FAQs: http://html-faq.com http://alt-html.org http://allmyfaqs.com/
    Recommended Hosting: http://www.affordablehost.com/
    Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org/
     
    Isofarro, Aug 6, 2003
    #5
  6. Zak McGregor

    Isofarro Guest

    Zak McGregor wrote:

    [Jakob Nielsen and Macromedia]
    > but on the other hand is being paid by a company whose very
    > products are the antithesis of said positions.


    So their efforts at making their web authoring toolkit compliant to web
    standards shouldn't be recognised (Web Standards Dreamweaver Taskforce)? Is
    Bob Regun wasting his time evangelising accessibility within Macromedia,
    even though he is succeeding?


    --
    Iso.
    FAQs: http://html-faq.com http://alt-html.org http://allmyfaqs.com/
    Recommended Hosting: http://www.affordablehost.com/
    Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org/
     
    Isofarro, Aug 6, 2003
    #6
  7. Zak McGregor

    Headless Guest

    Zak McGregor <> wrote:

    >> Is that supposed to be a form of encouragement? You'd rather they drop
    >> Flash entirely rather than fix the problems?

    >
    >Drop it or open it up entirely. It is a best a completely flawed format,
    >at worst a gargantuan nightmare of inaccessible binary gunk. It makes the
    >designers go all wobbly-kneed, and in turn the clients, but it sets real
    >development (in terms of information sharing) back to pre-WWW days. One
    >of the main principles of the WWW is client independence. Flash as it is
    >now destroys that entirely. Especially since MX when Macromedia have been
    >punting it as a complete html replacement.


    Usually I resist the temptation to do this, but this time I have to say:

    <aol>Hear hear, Me too, Give that man a beer, etc</aol>


    Headless

    --
    Email and usenet filter list: http://www.headless.dna.ie/usenet.htm
     
    Headless, Aug 7, 2003
    #7
  8. Zak McGregor

    Isofarro Guest

    Zak McGregor wrote:

    > On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 22:36:17 +0200, Isofarro <"Isofarro"
    > <>> wrote:
    >
    >> Zak McGregor wrote:
    >>
    >> [Jakob Nielsen and Macromedia]
    >>> but on the other hand is being paid by a company whose very products
    >>> are the antithesis of said positions.

    >>
    >> So their efforts at making their web authoring toolkit compliant to web
    >> standards shouldn't be recognised (Web Standards Dreamweaver Taskforce)?
    >> Is Bob Regun wasting his time evangelising accessibility within
    >> Macromedia, even though he is succeeding?

    >
    >
    > How exactly is he "succeeding"?


    The awareness of accessibility at Macromedia is higher than its ever been.
    When that gets translated into product improvements, then they are passing
    on that knoweldge and expertise to its customers.

    > Have Macromedia approached any standards bodies?


    Yep.

    > Have they dropped their internal Flash mechanisms for SMIL-based
    > open ones?


    Why does the adoption of SMIL-based process have to ocurr?



    --
    Iso.
    FAQs: http://html-faq.com http://alt-html.org http://allmyfaqs.com/
    Recommended Hosting: http://www.affordablehost.com/
    Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org/
     
    Isofarro, Aug 7, 2003
    #8
  9. Isofarro wrote:

    > Why do they need to open up Flash itself when the end format is an open
    > specification?


    What I'd like to see is the ability to export a Flash project as
    SVG+ECMAScript.

    In fact, it would be nice if the default behaviour would be to export in
    both SWF and SVG+ECMAScript formats and then embed them into HTML along
    the lines of:

    <object type="image/svg" data="foobar.svg">
    <object type="application/swf" data="foobar.swf">
    <p>Some brief description</p>
    <!-- perhaps an embed for stupid browsers -->
    </object>
    </object>


    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS | mailto: | pgp:0x6A2A7D39
    aim:inka80 | icq:6622880 | yahoo:tobyink | jabber:
    http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/ | "You've got spam!"
    playing://(nothing)
     
    Toby A Inkster, Aug 7, 2003
    #9
  10. Zak McGregor

    Zak McGregor Guest

    On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:12:49 +0200, Isofarro <"Isofarro"
    <>> wrote:

    > Zak McGregor wrote:


    [snip]

    >> How exactly is he "succeeding"?

    >
    > The awareness of accessibility at Macromedia is higher than its ever
    > been. When that gets translated into product improvements, then they are
    > passing on that knoweldge and expertise to its customers.


    Sorry, that does not seem like any improvement with respect to the nature
    of the problems that Flash poses. While there are undoubtedly many
    secondary problems which these points you make possibly deal with, the
    big ugly wart on the face of the web that is Flash will only be removed
    by Macromedia relinquishing their mechanisms into an open process.

    >> Have Macromedia approached any standards bodies?

    >
    > Yep.


    Do you want to elaborate on that, or must we just take your word for it?
    I fo one don't.

    >> Have they dropped their internal Flash mechanisms for SMIL-based open
    >> ones?

    >
    > Why does the adoption of SMIL-based process have to ocurr?



    Read it as "Or any other open standards-based vector animation for web
    proposals" if it parses easier.

    Ciao

    Zak

    --
    ========================================================================
    http://www.carfolio.com/ Searchable database of 10 000+ car specs
    ========================================================================
     
    Zak McGregor, Aug 7, 2003
    #10
  11. Zak McGregor

    Zak McGregor Guest

    On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:16:01 +0200, Isofarro <"Isofarro"
    <>> wrote:

    > Zak McGregor wrote:
    >
    >> On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 22:31:24 +0200, Isofarro <"Isofarro"
    >> <>> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Is that supposed to be a form of encouragement? You'd rather they drop
    >>> Flash entirely rather than fix the problems?

    >>
    >> Drop it or open it up entirely.

    >
    > Why do they need to open up Flash itself when the end format is an open
    > specification?


    I dispute your claim that it is in any measure "open". Offer a concrete
    reference for a basis to discuss further please.

    >> It makes the
    >> designers go all wobbly-kneed, and in turn the clients, but it sets
    >> real development (in terms of information sharing) back to pre-WWW
    >> days.

    >
    > Webdesigners have accomplished that stasis without the need for Flash.


    Say what? Even the worst-designed quasi-html document is still parsable
    with simple text tools. Even the stupidest jpeg-encapsulated-in-html gunk
    out here is still parsable with *text-based* console tools. The same
    cannot be said of Flash, even the best-designed Flash teratoma. It
    flat-out undermines the interoperability of the web. And when Macromedia
    push it as an html alternative they lie - for that simple reason.

    Ciao

    Zak

    --
    ========================================================================
    http://www.carfolio.com/ Searchable database of 10 000+ car specs
    ========================================================================
     
    Zak McGregor, Aug 7, 2003
    #11
  12. Zak McGregor

    Isofarro Guest

    Zak McGregor wrote:

    > On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:12:49 +0200, Isofarro <"Isofarro"
    > <>> wrote:
    >
    >> Zak McGregor wrote:

    >
    >>> Have Macromedia approached any standards bodies?

    >>
    >> Yep.

    >
    > Do you want to elaborate on that, or must we just take your word for it?
    > I fo one don't.


    W3C - a cursory glance at their Technical Recommendations notes that they
    were involved in authoring the SVG1.0, SVG1.1 and SMIL 2.0 Technical
    Recommendations. Since the W3C are the only standards body that matters to
    me within the web context, I'll leave it at that, unless you feel there are
    other Web related stanards bodies worth examining - I'm happy to do so if
    you will list them.

    >>> Have they dropped their internal Flash mechanisms for SMIL-based open
    >>> ones?

    >>
    >> Why does the adoption of SMIL-based process have to ocurr?

    >
    > Read it as "Or any other open standards-based vector animation for web
    > proposals" if it parses easier.


    As pointed out above, they were involved in the Technical Recommendations of
    SMIL2.0, SVG1.0 and SVG1.1 - that puts them on par with all the other
    corporations involved in W3 activities.


    --
    Iso.
    FAQs: http://html-faq.com http://alt-html.org http://allmyfaqs.com/
    Recommended Hosting: http://www.affordablehost.com/
    Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org/
     
    Isofarro, Aug 8, 2003
    #12
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Ray5531

    Postmaster and Webmaster

    Ray5531, Mar 29, 2005, in forum: ASP .Net
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    428
    Ray5531
    Mar 29, 2005
  2. Student

    Java Webmaster PAY

    Student, Sep 3, 2003, in forum: Java
    Replies:
    7
    Views:
    447
    Tom Davies
    Sep 11, 2003
  3. Student

    re. Java Webmaster PAY

    Student, Sep 4, 2003, in forum: Java
    Replies:
    5
    Views:
    410
    Erwin Moller
    Sep 4, 2003
  4. Hywel Jenkins

    Re: new webmaster

    Hywel Jenkins, Aug 6, 2003, in forum: HTML
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    401
    Hywel Jenkins
    Aug 6, 2003
  5. BogiWogi
    Replies:
    6
    Views:
    397
    Neredbojias
    Sep 4, 2007
Loading...

Share This Page