Re: OMG Oracle/Sun ... out of the loop developer panicking

Discussion in 'Java' started by Robert Klemme, Feb 26, 2010.

  1. On 02/26/2010 09:32 PM, DuncanIdaho wrote:
    > Oh my goodness what has been happening.
    >
    > I've been 'out of the loop' since before Christmas 2009. Just got back
    > to the UK and found an email in my inbox from Oracle telling me they've
    > bought Sun ... catastrophe ... or is it.


    Congrats to the long vacation. :)

    > Can anyone point me to any discussion groups ... I need to figure out
    > what this means to my huge (many years) time investment in Java.


    Not sure how serious you are about the panic, but panic is rarely a
    source of good advice. I don't think there is reason to panic at all.
    Even if Oracle were going to do something bad to Java (which they
    certainly won't - Oracle can't be stupid - otherwise they would not have
    earned the money for buying companies like we are buying groceries),
    this would be a slow change. Btw, if Oracle would kill off Java, they
    would help their most serious enemy: Microsoft. I can't believe that we
    are going to see this happen - at least as long as Larry is in charge.

    > Thanks now where's the scotch, think I need a drink.


    A good scotch once in a while is certainly a good thing to have. :)
    Btw, what's your preferred brand?

    Kind regards

    robert

    --
    remember.guy do |as, often| as.you_can - without end
    http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/
    Robert Klemme, Feb 26, 2010
    #1
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  2. Robert Klemme

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 22:33:20 +0100, Robert Klemme
    <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
    someone who said :

    >
    >Not sure how serious you are about the panic, but panic is rarely a
    >source of good advice. I don't think there is reason to panic at all.
    >Even if Oracle were going to do something bad to Java (which they
    >certainly won't - Oracle can't be stupid


    Oracle's pattern is not to destroy good products, but to gradually up
    the fees for their use after users are locked in.

    MySQL competes with Oracle's database products. I would imagine they
    might attempt to create a smooth migration path from MySQL to Oracle,
    and hobble MySQL so that it could only be used for small projects.
    That way MySQL becomes the farm team for the expensive products.

    If Oracle behaves too badly on Java, IBM would pick up the ball, and
    Oracle would have wasted its money.

    Sun often behaved in ways very unlike the way corporations usually
    behave, e.g. sticking it to Microsoft, providing so much free,
    avoiding lock in... It is a bit much to expect any new owner to be
    similarly eccentric, much as I mourn the loss.
    --
    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    http://mindprod.com

    The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair.
    ~ Douglas Adams (born: 1952-03-11 died: 2001-05-11 at age: 49)
    Roedy Green, Feb 26, 2010
    #2
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  3. Robert Klemme

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 26-02-2010 17:41, Roedy Green wrote:
    > MySQL competes with Oracle's database products. I would imagine they
    > might attempt to create a smooth migration path from MySQL to Oracle,
    > and hobble MySQL so that it could only be used for small projects.
    > That way MySQL becomes the farm team for the expensive products.


    You forget that MySQL is open source.

    They can not really restrict the features of MySQL - or to be
    more precise they can not prevent other from distributing
    an unrestricted version of MySQL.

    Arne
    Arne Vajhøj, Feb 27, 2010
    #3
  4. Robert Klemme

    Lew Guest

    Roedy Green wrote:
    > MySQL competes with Oracle's database products.


    For certain extremely weak values of "compete".

    --
    Lew
    Lew, Feb 27, 2010
    #4
  5. On 02/26/2010 11:41 PM, Roedy Green wrote:

    > Sun often behaved in ways very unlike the way corporations usually
    > behave, e.g. sticking it to Microsoft, providing so much free,
    > avoiding lock in... It is a bit much to expect any new owner to be
    > similarly eccentric, much as I mourn the loss.


    What exactly did we loose so far? I am not aware of any loss that
    affects my work or other aspects of my life caused by this deal.

    Cheers

    robert

    --
    remember.guy do |as, often| as.you_can - without end
    http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/
    Robert Klemme, Feb 27, 2010
    #5
  6. Robert Klemme

    Stefan Ram Guest

    Robert Klemme <> writes:
    >What exactly did we loose so far? I am not aware of any loss that
    >affects my work or other aspects of my life caused by this deal.


    Two remarks regarding English:

    - it should be »... did we lose so far ...« and
    - »out-of-the-loop developer«,

    because the intended reading is ((out of the loop) developer)
    not (out of the (loop developer)).
    Stefan Ram, Feb 27, 2010
    #6
  7. Robert Klemme

    markspace Guest

    Stefan Ram wrote:
    > Robert Klemme <> writes:
    >> What exactly did we loose so far? I am not aware of any loss that
    >> affects my work or other aspects of my life caused by this deal.

    >
    > Two remarks regarding English:
    >
    > - it should be »... did we lose so far ...« and
    > - »out-of-the-loop developer«,
    >
    > because the intended reading is ((out of the loop) developer)
    > not (out of the (loop developer)).
    >



    I dunno. Some days I think there's lots of loopy developers here.
    markspace, Feb 27, 2010
    #7
  8. Robert Klemme

    Steve Sobol Guest

    In article <>,
    lid says...


    > Oracle's pattern is not to destroy good products, but to gradually up
    > the fees for their use after users are locked in.



    This is a good point. However, I have two counterpoints to make:

    ** GNU Classpath exists
    ** OpenJDK exists


    --
    Steve Sobol, Victorville, California, USA
    Steve Sobol, Feb 27, 2010
    #8
  9. On 27.02.2010 17:20, Stefan Ram wrote:
    > Robert Klemme <> writes:
    >> What exactly did we loose so far? I am not aware of any loss that
    >> affects my work or other aspects of my life caused by this deal.

    >
    > Two remarks regarding English:
    >
    > - it should be »... did we lose so far ...« and


    Of yes, of course you are right! How embarrassing.

    I do believe though that Roedy does not mourn the loss of the 'o' that
    you found in my posting. ;-)

    Cheers

    robert

    --
    remember.guy do |as, often| as.you_can - without end
    http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/
    Robert Klemme, Feb 28, 2010
    #9
  10. Robert Klemme

    Lew Guest

    Robert Klemme writes:
    >>> What exactly did we loose so far? I am not aware of any loss that
    >>> affects my work or other aspects of my life caused by this deal.


    Stefan Ram wrote:
    >> Two remarks regarding English:
    >>
    >> - it should be »... did we lose so far ...« and


    Bravo!

    Robert Klemme wrote:
    > Of yes, of course you are right! How embarrassing.
    >
    > I do believe though that Roedy does not mourn the loss of the 'o' that
    > you found in my posting. ;-)


    That didn't make sense.

    --
    Lew
    Lew, Feb 28, 2010
    #10
  11. Robert Klemme

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 17:02:39 +0100, Robert Klemme
    <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
    someone who said :

    >What exactly did we loose so far? I am not aware of any loss that
    >affects my work or other aspects of my life caused by this deal.


    Have a look http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jdkreleasedates.html

    Originally we had a major release each year. We have not had one since
    2006-12. This would be a part of Sun's financial trouble leading to
    its sale.
    --
    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    http://mindprod.com

    The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair.
    ~ Douglas Adams (born: 1952-03-11 died: 2001-05-11 at age: 49)
    Roedy Green, Feb 28, 2010
    #11
  12. Robert Klemme

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 28-02-2010 16:29, Roedy Green wrote:
    > On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 17:02:39 +0100, Robert Klemme
    > <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted
    > someone who said :
    >> What exactly did we loose so far? I am not aware of any loss that
    >> affects my work or other aspects of my life caused by this deal.

    >
    > Have a look http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jdkreleasedates.html
    >
    > Originally we had a major release each year. We have not had one since
    > 2006-12. This would be a part of Sun's financial trouble leading to
    > its sale.


    It is not that unusual to see the interval between releases
    increase in the second decade compared to the first decade
    for a technology.

    Arne
    Arne Vajhøj, Feb 28, 2010
    #12
  13. Robert Klemme

    Lew Guest

    Roedy Green wrote:
    >> Have a look http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jdkreleasedates.html
    >>
    >> Originally we had a major release each year. We have not had one since
    >> 2006-12. This would be a part of Sun's financial trouble leading to
    >> its sale.


    Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    > It is not that unusual to see the interval between releases
    > increase in the second decade compared to the first decade
    > for a technology.


    It is usually a sign of increasing stability thus requiring fewer changes,
    increased user and installed base thus increasing the cost of changes, and
    increased language size and complexity thus also increasing the cost of
    changes. It is natural as the language gets "full" and fewer problems exist
    that new releases take longer. There is no reason to believe that it has
    anything to do with Sun's business troubles.

    What is the interval now between changes in, say, the C language, or COBOL?
    What company's financial woes are tied to that?

    --
    Lew
    Lew, Mar 1, 2010
    #13
  14. On 28-02-2010 21:11, Lew wrote:
    > Roedy Green wrote:
    >>> Have a look http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jdkreleasedates.html
    >>>
    >>> Originally we had a major release each year. We have not had one since
    >>> 2006-12. This would be a part of Sun's financial trouble leading to
    >>> its sale.

    >
    > Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    >> It is not that unusual to see the interval between releases
    >> increase in the second decade compared to the first decade
    >> for a technology.

    >
    > It is usually a sign of increasing stability thus requiring fewer
    > changes, increased user and installed base thus increasing the cost of
    > changes, and increased language size and complexity thus also increasing
    > the cost of changes. It is natural as the language gets "full" and fewer
    > problems exist that new releases take longer. There is no reason to
    > believe that it has anything to do with Sun's business troubles.
    >
    > What is the interval now between changes in, say, the C language, or
    > COBOL? What company's financial woes are tied to that?


    C: based on C89, C99 and C1X then I would say that it was 10 years
    interval and may be headed for 15 years interval.

    COBOL: based on COBOL68, COBOL74, COBOL85, COBOL2002 then I would
    say it has gone 5 year -> 10 year -> 15 year.

    So us Java folks should not complain too much.

    That said then I am rather impatient for 1.7 !

    :)

    Arne
    Arne Vajhøj, Mar 1, 2010
    #14
  15. Robert Klemme

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 27-02-2010 11:00, Robert Klemme wrote:
    > On 02/27/2010 04:46 AM, Lew wrote:
    >> Roedy Green wrote:
    >>> MySQL competes with Oracle's database products.

    >>
    >> For certain extremely weak values of "compete".

    >
    > For Oracle the more serious threat in Open Source land seems to be
    > PostgreSQL. From what I am hearing MySQL isn't ready for large scale
    > deployments


    Tell that to those tiny companies: Google, Yahoo, Facebook,
    Twitter, LinkedIn ...

    > - maybe as MySQL Enterprise but that is a special
    > subscription that has to be paid for.


    It is the exact same database server.

    The difference is the license, the support and some tools.

    http://www.mysql.com/products/which-edition.html#difference

    Arne
    Arne Vajhøj, Mar 1, 2010
    #15
  16. On 28.02.2010 15:43, Lew wrote:
    > Robert Klemme writes:
    >>>> What exactly did we loose so far? I am not aware of any loss that
    >>>> affects my work or other aspects of my life caused by this deal.

    >
    > Stefan Ram wrote:
    >>> Two remarks regarding English:
    >>>
    >>> - it should be »... did we lose so far ...« and

    >
    > Bravo!


    Hey, I'm really embarrassed about that stupid mistake of mine. Do you
    really need to poke around this wound? :)

    > Robert Klemme wrote:
    >> Of yes, of course you are right! How embarrassing.
    >>
    >> I do believe though that Roedy does not mourn the loss of the 'o' that
    >> you found in my posting. ;-)

    >
    > That didn't make sense.


    Well, I'm a) not a native speaker and b) German so you can see that I'm
    doubly handicapped and it shouldn't surprise you that my attempt at
    humor failed miserably.

    Cheers

    robert


    --
    remember.guy do |as, often| as.you_can - without end
    http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/
    Robert Klemme, Mar 1, 2010
    #16
  17. Robert Klemme

    Lew Guest

    Stefan Ram wrote:
    >>>> - it should be »... did we lose so far ...« and


    Lew wrote:
    >> Bravo!


    Robert Klemme wrote:
    > Hey, I'm really embarrassed about that stupid mistake of mine. Do you
    > really need to poke around this wound? :)


    I sure am glad you smiled. I apologize if I embarrassed you in any way. I
    certainly didn't intend it, nor was I one to correct your post. I simply
    intended to applaud Stefan for his diligence.

    Besides, I make spelling istakes here mself all the time.

    You are far too valuable a contributor to waste time worrying about the odd
    typo here and there.

    --
    Lew
    Lew, Mar 1, 2010
    #17
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