Re: php vs python

Discussion in 'Python' started by NC, May 22, 2008.

  1. NC

    NC Guest

    On May 21, 1:10 pm, notbob <> wrote:
    >
    > So, here's my delimna: I want to start a blog. Yeah, who doesn't.
    > Yet, I want learn the guts of it instead of just booting up some
    > wordwank or whatever.


    Here's a simple computation to consider... WordPress' codebase is
    approximately a megabyte of PHP code and megabyte of JavaScript code.
    Assuming that the average line of that code is 50 characters long, you
    are looking at 20,000 lines of code in PHP and as many in JavaScript.
    Based on the notion that the average developer out there writes 100
    lines a day, either you're in for a two-year project or your product
    is going to have seriously reduced functionality compared to something
    that's been freely available for years. What's your choice?

    > Then I run across that blog, Coding Horror, and start reading
    > articles like this:
    >
    > http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001119.html


    You should read what some computer scientists write about SQL... :)

    > Now what?


    Nothing. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. You are free to form
    your own.

    > I've taken basic basic and basic C, but am barely literate
    > in html.


    Maybe that (and some JavaScript) is something to work on first before
    delving into server-side programming?

    > Well, that's my actual question, then. Is php really so bad
    > I'm just wasting my time? Or is it really the quickest way
    > to blog functionality?


    The quickest way to blog functionality is an account on a blogging
    service... :)

    > Would I be better served in the long run learning python, which
    > claims to be easy as pie to learn/program (still looks hard to
    > me). I admit I'm no code geek. But, I'm not completely brain
    > dead, either, and I need something to keep my geezer brain
    > sparking. What say ye?


    If the purpose is to keep the brain sparking, it doesn't matter what
    you learn as long as you're enjoying the process. You might as well
    take up Japanese while you're at it...

    Cheers,
    NC
     
    NC, May 22, 2008
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. NC

    Lie Guest

    On May 22, 12:28 pm, NC <> wrote:
    > On May 21, 1:10 pm, notbob <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > So, here's my delimna: I want to start a blog.  Yeah, who doesn't.
    > > Yet, I want learn the guts of it instead of just booting up some
    > > wordwank or whatever.

    >
    > Here's a simple computation to consider...  WordPress' codebase is
    > approximately a megabyte of PHP code and megabyte of JavaScript code.
    > Assuming that the average line of that code is 50 characters long, you
    > are looking at 20,000 lines of code in PHP and as many in JavaScript.
    > Based on the notion that the average developer out there writes 100
    > lines a day, either you're in for a two-year project or your product
    > is going to have seriously reduced functionality compared to something
    > that's been freely available for years.  What's your choice?


    Nope, the core functionality of a blogging software could be
    replicated in just a few lines of PHP codes, in the range of tens to
    hundreds of lines. If you're creating your own blogging software, you
    wouldn't seriously think you'd recreate all those things such as
    pingbacks, commenting system, etc, etc, etc. No, you'd start with some
    basic core functionalities: a few simple server side includes only.
     
    Lie, May 25, 2008
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Jerry Stuckle wrote:
    > Lie wrote:
    > > On May 22, 12:28 pm, NC <> wrote:
    > >> On May 21, 1:10 pm, notbob <> wrote:
    > >>> So, here's my delimna: I want to start a blog.  Yeah, who doesn't.
    > >>> Yet, I want learn the guts of it instead of just booting up some
    > >>> wordwank or whatever.
    > >> Here's a simple computation to consider...  WordPress' codebase is
    > >> approximately a megabyte of PHP code and megabyte of JavaScript code.
    > >> Assuming that the average line of that code is 50 characters long, you
    > >> are looking at 20,000 lines of code in PHP and as many in JavaScript.
    > >> Based on the notion that the average developer out there writes 100
    > >> lines a day, either you're in for a two-year project or your product
    > >> is going to have seriously reduced functionality compared to something
    > >> that's been freely available for years.  What's your choice?

    >
    > > Nope, the core functionality of a blogging software could be
    > > replicated in just a few lines of PHP codes, in the range of tens to
    > > hundreds of lines. If you're creating your own blogging software, you
    > > wouldn't seriously think you'd recreate all those things such as
    > > pingbacks, commenting system, etc, etc, etc. No, you'd start with some
    > > basic core functionalities: a few simple server side includes only.

    >
    > As he said - it's either a two man-year project or your product is going
    > to have seriously reduced functionality.  It looks like you are opting
    > for the latter.
    >
    > Also, you still need to write the server-side includes.  But they won't
    > do nearly enough for everything WordPress does.


    If the OP wants to learn the guts of the blog or to implement the blog
    from scratch, Python/Django would be a better choice than PHP. The
    reason is that he can reuse and customize existing high quality
    components for all these auth/auth, admin, comments, etc, etc, etc.
    Another reason is that Python and Django encourage very clean design
    while PHP is too often ends up in "spaghetti SQL wrapped in spaghetti
    PHP wrapped in spaghetti HTML". 2 man/year in PHP == 2 man/week in
    Python/Django.

    And there are Python/Django blog applications that already do almost
    everything (and maybe more) that WordPress does. http://byteflow.su/
    is one of them (IMHO the most promising).

    Ivan
     
    Ivan Illarionov, May 25, 2008
    #3
  4. NC

    NC Guest

    On May 25, 11:46 am, Ivan Illarionov <>
    wrote:
    >
    > If the OP wants to learn the guts of the blog or to implement
    > the blog from scratch, Python/Django would be a better choice
    > than PHP. The reason is that he can reuse and customize existing
    > high quality components for all these auth/auth, admin, comments,
    > etc, etc, etc.


    You are comparing apples to oranges... There are application
    frameworks
    for PHP as well (CakePHP and Symfony come to mind). CakePHP, if
    memory
    serves, actually has a development of a blog described in its
    tutorial...

    > Another reason is that Python and Django encourage very clean design
    > while PHP is too often ends up in "spaghetti SQL wrapped in spaghetti
    > PHP wrapped in spaghetti HTML".


    It's absolutely the same thing with PHP frameworks...

    > 2 man/year in PHP == 2 man/week in Python/Django.


    This, I daresay, is an exaggeration... Let's take your own example:

    > And there are Python/Django blog applications that already do almost
    > everything (and maybe more) that WordPress does.http://byteflow.su/
    > is one of them (IMHO the most promising).


    A quick look at the revision log:

    http://byteflow.su/log/

    reveals that the initial commit of 60 or so files has been done on
    08/14/07
    (10 months ago), a second developer came on board 12/01/07 (seven+
    months ago),
    a third one, on 01/04/08 (six+ months ago), a fourth one, on 01/16/08
    (also
    six+ months ago). There are at least nine discernible contributors
    overall.
    Say what you will, but it still looks an awful lot like like two man-
    years,
    Django or no Django...

    Cheers,
    NC
     
    NC, May 25, 2008
    #4
  5. On Sun, 25 May 2008 13:28:25 -0700, NC wrote:
    [...]
    > A quick look at the revision log:
    >
    > http://byteflow.su/log/
    >
    > reveals that the initial commit of 60 or so files has been done on
    > 08/14/07
    > (10 months ago), a second developer came on board 12/01/07 (seven+
    > months ago),
    > a third one, on 01/04/08 (six+ months ago), a fourth one, on 01/16/08
    > (also
    > six+ months ago). There are at least nine discernible contributors
    > overall.
    > Say what you will, but it still looks an awful lot like like two man-
    > years,
    > Django or no Django...


    I bet that if they did this with PHP framework they where far from where
    they are now.

    I didn't say that it's not possible to write good code in PHP, I said
    that Python and Django encourage cleaner code more than PHP and PHP
    frameworks do.

    IMHO Python language is better designed and this influences everything
    written in it.

    Yes, it's possible to write something clean in PHP but it would require a
    lot more work.

    Ivan
     
    Ivan Illarionov, May 25, 2008
    #5
  6. On Sun, 25 May 2008 17:09:43 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
    > Not at all. I do it every day.
    >
    > And BTW - yes, I write Python, also. But I find I can write better,
    > faster code in PHP.


    I find I can write better code in Python. Maybe it's just a matter of
    personal preference?

    > Do you write PHP?

    I did. And I hated it very much. I hated it so much that even I had few
    Python scripts that generated PHP for me when it was possible.
     
    Ivan Illarionov, May 25, 2008
    #6
  7. NC

    NC Guest

    On May 25, 1:55 pm, Ivan Illarionov <> wrote:
    > On Sun, 25 May 2008 13:28:25 -0700, NC wrote:
    >
    > > A quick look at the revision log:

    >
    > > http://byteflow.su/log/

    >
    > > reveals that the initial commit of 60 or so files has been done
    > > on 08/14/07 (10 months ago), a second developer came on board
    > > 12/01/07 (seven+ months ago), a third one, on 01/04/08 (six+
    > > months ago), a fourth one, on 01/16/08 (also six+ months ago).
    > > There are at least nine discernible contributors overall. Say
    > > what you will, but it still looks an awful lot like like two
    > > man-years, Django or no Django...

    >
    > I bet that if they did this with PHP framework they where far
    > from where they are now.


    The question is, which way? :) Jerry Stuckle, with whom I
    wholeheartedly argue about half the time we post to the same threads
    and argue bitterly the other half of the time, thinks they would be
    ahead of where they are now... :)

    > I didn't say that it's not possible to write good code in PHP,


    Indeed you didn't. You did, however, say that development in Python/
    Django is inherently faster than development in PHP (your exact words
    were, "2 man/year in PHP == 2 man/week in Python/Django", implying a
    50-fold difference). This claim has just been obliterated using the
    example you (not I) provided; my estimate of two man-years for
    developing WordPress turns out to be fairly close to what has actually
    gone into the development of Byteflow. In other words, so far we have
    discovered no evidence of Python's (or PHP's, to be fair) superiority
    in terms of developer's productivity.

    > IMHO Python language is better designed


    That is indeed a matter of opinion. You like (among other things)
    immutable strings, the off-side rule, the idea that everything is an
    object, and the fine distinction between mutable lists and immutable
    tuples, and I have no problem with you liking these features, as long
    as you agree that other people may have reasons to like the
    alternatives better.

    > Yes, it's possible to write something clean in PHP but it
    > would require a lot more work.


    In my opinion, it wouldn't, and in my experience, it doesn't. All you
    need is to actually put a designer in charge of design. Additionally,
    there are situations (rapid prototyping, for example) when
    maintainability (the requirement behind the "clean code") is simply
    not a concern.

    Cheers,
    NC
     
    NC, May 26, 2008
    #7
  8. On Sun, 25 May 2008 16:23:12 -0700, NC wrote:

    >> I didn't say that it's not possible to write good code in PHP,

    >
    > Indeed you didn't. You did, however, say that development in Python/
    > Django is inherently faster than development in PHP (your exact words
    > were, "2 man/year in PHP == 2 man/week in Python/Django", implying a
    > 50-fold difference). This claim has just been obliterated using the
    > example you (not I) provided; my estimate of two man-years for
    > developing WordPress turns out to be fairly close to what has actually
    > gone into the development of Byteflow. In other words, so far we have
    > discovered no evidence of Python's (or PHP's, to be fair) superiority in
    > terms of developer's productivity.


    In this case (excellent blogging tool), yes, I agree.

    >> IMHO Python language is better designed

    >
    > That is indeed a matter of opinion. You like (among other things)
    > immutable strings, the off-side rule, the idea that everything is an
    > object, and the fine distinction between mutable lists and immutable
    > tuples, and I have no problem with you liking these features, as long as
    > you agree that other people may have reasons to like the alternatives
    > better.


    I agree. We like different things and it's good.

    >> Yes, it's possible to write something clean in PHP but it would require
    >> a lot more work.

    >
    > In my opinion, it wouldn't, and in my experience, it doesn't. All you
    > need is to actually put a designer in charge of design. Additionally,
    > there are situations (rapid prototyping, for example) when
    > maintainability (the requirement behind the "clean code") is simply not
    > a concern.


    It's hard to me to write good PHP. I feel happy programming in Python and
    I felt very unhappy when I had to program in PHP. I'm glad that you have
    a different experience.

    Ivan
     
    Ivan Illarionov, May 26, 2008
    #8
  9. Jerry Stuckle wrote:

    > As I've said before - good programmers can write good code in any
    > language.


    Yes, they can. But it may be harder to do for them in one language and
    easier in another.

    Ivan
     
    Ivan Illarionov, May 26, 2008
    #9
  10. On Sun, 25 May 2008 20:53:28 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

    > Ivan Illarionov wrote:
    >> Jerry Stuckle wrote:
    >>
    >>> As I've said before - good programmers can write good code in any
    >>> language.

    >>
    >> Yes, they can. But it may be harder to do for them in one language and
    >> easier in another.
    >>
    >> Ivan

    >
    > Not for a good programmer it isn't. I've known a few good programmers
    > in my 40+ years of programming. I've known a lot more poor programmers
    > who think they're good.


    I can't argue with your experience. I don't think that I'm good
    programmer. I want to be better. And I hope that when I'll have 48+ years
    experience I won't have to use it as argumentum ad hominem.
     
    Ivan Illarionov, May 26, 2008
    #10
  11. NC

    I V Guest

    On Sun, 25 May 2008 21:41:09 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
    > The the good programmers are able to adapt to the language and make the
    > most of whatever language they're using. The result is good code. OTOH,
    > poor programmers I have known have found all kinds of excuses - from the
    > language itself to lack of requirements, to anything else they can
    > blame, except the real root of the problem.


    That's true - but I wonder if there might not be differences at the
    margins. Some languages (and, which is not quite the same but not easy to
    fully distinguish either, the communities around some languages) may
    encourage mediocre programmers to produce slightly more or less mediocre
    programs.

    Some features of Python (the one that really stands out for me is not
    default-initializing variables on first use; the comparatively clean
    standard library might be another), and some features of the Python
    community (which, IME, has more members more explicitly committed to
    writing clean code) I think do make Python a better environment for us
    mediocre programmers.

    But maybe I'm wrong - I've never been paid to write Python programs,
    whereas I have been paid to write PHP, so I might just be projecting my
    frustrations with work onto the language. I've also not used PHP5 much in
    anger, which does look to be a lot nicer than earlier versions.
     
    I V, May 26, 2008
    #11
  12. NC

    Max M Guest

    Jerry Stuckle skrev:
    > Ivan Illarionov wrote:


    > I repeat. The language has nothing to do with it. Good programmers
    > write good code. Lousy programmers write bad code.


    That is simply not true!

    The languag has a lot to do with what you can do in any given time.

    You can write good code in a bad language. But it will take lot more
    time. And so it will not be done.

    Your argument, if it was true, would mean that I could just as well
    write a blog in c or even assembler, and still write optimal code.


    php is a terrible language and I cringe whenever I have to use it. In
    fact I have turned down many jobs because they were written in php. It
    is simply to frustrating.


    --

    hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark

    http://www.mxm.dk/
    IT's Mad Science
     
    Max M, May 26, 2008
    #12
  13. On Mon, 26 May 2008 10:11:22 +0200, Max M wrote:

    > Jerry Stuckle skrev:
    >> Ivan Illarionov wrote:

    >
    >> I repeat. The language has nothing to do with it. Good programmers
    >> write good code. Lousy programmers write bad code.

    >
    > That is simply not true!
    >
    > The languag has a lot to do with what you can do in any given time.
    >
    > You can write good code in a bad language. But it will take lot more
    > time. And so it will not be done.
    >
    > Your argument, if it was true, would mean that I could just as well
    > write a blog in c or even assembler, and still write optimal code.
    >
    >
    > php is a terrible language and I cringe whenever I have to use it. In
    > fact I have turned down many jobs because they were written in php. It
    > is simply to frustrating.


    I want to cite Paul Graham on this topic:

    "it's all based on one unspoken assumption, and that assumption turns out
    to be false. The pointy-haired boss believes that all programming
    languages are pretty much equivalent. If that were true, he would be
    right on target. If languages are all equivalent, sure, use whatever
    language everyone else is using.

    But all languages are not equivalent, and I think I can prove this to you
    without even getting into the differences between them. If you asked the
    pointy-haired boss in 1992 what language software should be written in,
    he would have answered with as little hesitation as he does today.
    Software should be written in C++. But if languages are all equivalent,
    why should the pointy-haired boss's opinion ever change? In fact, why
    should the developers of Java have even bothered to create a new language?

    Presumably, if you create a new language, it's because you think it's
    better in some way than what people already had. And in fact, Gosling
    makes it clear in the first Java white paper that Java was designed to
    fix some problems with C++. So there you have it: languages are not all
    equivalent. If you follow the trail through the pointy-haired boss's
    brain to Java and then back through Java's history to its origins, you
    end up holding an idea that contradicts the assumption you started with.

    So, who's right? James Gosling, or the pointy-haired boss? Not
    surprisingly, Gosling is right. Some languages are better, for certain
    problems, than others. And you know, that raises some interesting
    questions. Java was designed to be better, for certain problems, than C+
    +. What problems? When is Java better and when is C++? Are there
    situations where other languages are better than either of them?"
    and so on at
    http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html

    I tend to share PG's opinions on the subject (though I think that Python
    is superior to Lisp :).

    The argument that "the language has nothing to do with it" is an old
    pointy-haired boss argument. I doubt that a person who think this way can
    be a really good programmer.

    Ivan
     
    Ivan Illarionov, May 26, 2008
    #13
  14. ..oO(Ivan Illarionov)

    >On Sun, 25 May 2008 17:09:43 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
    >> Not at all. I do it every day.
    >>
    >> And BTW - yes, I write Python, also. But I find I can write better,
    >> faster code in PHP.

    >
    >I find I can write better code in Python. Maybe it's just a matter of
    >personal preference?


    Exactly.

    >> Do you write PHP?

    >I did. And I hated it very much.


    See, for me it's the other way round. I really hate Python syntax.
    I only touch it for scripting Paint Shop Pro or if some third-party
    Python script lacks proper documentation and I have to wade through
    the sources to find the informations I need.

    So where does this leave us? Nowhere. A language is just a tool and a
    tool is just as good as the one who uses it. This was said often enough.

    If you hate PHP, that's OK, but it doesn't make PHP a bad or even
    inferior language.

    Micha
     
    Michael Fesser, May 26, 2008
    #14
  15. > If you hate PHP, that's OK, but it doesn't make PHP a bad or even
    > inferior language.


    No. That is PHP on it's own that makes it an inferior language. It is suited
    (and surprisingly well) for the task of creating webapps. But the language
    core? Plain ugly. Examples include (in arbitrary order and not complete)

    - bolted-on Object-system
    - lack of binary extension API
    - ONE collection type to rule them all!!
    - stateful collection iteration (come *on*, calling reset on an array!)
    - no namespaces (according to
    http://www.php.net/manual/en/language.namespaces.php they are planned -
    good)
    - copy-by-value semantics with a crude reference-mechanism to mitigate that
    - inconsistent APIs all over (DB-connectivity for example). Yes, I know
    about PEAR::DB. But somebody "designed" the real DB apis. Or actually
    didn't. Which
    - no concept of higher order functions - you pass around function-*names*.
    Which of course works because of one flat namespace. Wonder how it will
    work if NS get real

    Oh, and one of my real favorits: NO SUB-EXPRESSIONS. You can't write

    $foo = $array1[$key1][$key2][$key3]

    I'm wondering how to write a language that *doesn't* allow for that...

    And before you ask: yes, I've written PHP, more than enough and larger
    systems in it with a few K-loc. I even encountered weird bugs (PHP 4.0.x,
    has been a while) that made PHP forget function definitions! You could
    re-load a page if a function was missing, and it magically appeared. and
    you could *fix* this turning off some warn/log-level. Again - I don't even
    *know* how to program something like a language that behaves that way. And
    it certainly puts the language into the worst light imaginable. buggy
    libraries and extensions? No deal, can happen. But core features like
    that - should work.

    having said all this - I see the benefits of PHP. It is easy to start for
    non-programmers, you can get it for virtually no cost at all for
    web-development tasks, you don't need to bother with stuff you have to deal
    in python web-frameworks like setting up mod_wsgi, mod_python or mod_proxy.

    But it is a hack. Don't pretend otherwise.

    Diez
     
    Diez B. Roggisch, May 26, 2008
    #15
  16. NC

    Curtis Guest

    I V wrote:
    > On Sun, 25 May 2008 21:41:09 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
    >> The the good programmers are able to adapt to the language and make the
    >> most of whatever language they're using. The result is good code. OTOH,
    >> poor programmers I have known have found all kinds of excuses - from the
    >> language itself to lack of requirements, to anything else they can
    >> blame, except the real root of the problem.

    >
    > That's true - but I wonder if there might not be differences at the
    > margins. Some languages (and, which is not quite the same but not easy to
    > fully distinguish either, the communities around some languages) may
    > encourage mediocre programmers to produce slightly more or less mediocre
    > programs.
    >
    > Some features of Python (the one that really stands out for me is not
    > default-initializing variables on first use; the comparatively clean
    > standard library might be another), and some features of the Python
    > community (which, IME, has more members more explicitly committed to
    > writing clean code) I think do make Python a better environment for us
    > mediocre programmers.


    If you set PHP to show notices, it will tell you of such cases.
    However, the way I learned good programming practice was talking with
    other programmers, and trying different languages. I think if you have
    a real desire to write good code, and work at it, you can accomplish
    your task, regardless of the language.

    However, there is definitely a prevalent amount of poorly written PHP
    on the Web, so it can be easy for a newcomer to pick up some bad
    practices. This isn't a fault of the design of the language, though.

    > But maybe I'm wrong - I've never been paid to write Python programs,
    > whereas I have been paid to write PHP, so I might just be projecting my
    > frustrations with work onto the language. I've also not used PHP5 much in
    > anger, which does look to be a lot nicer than earlier versions.


    Yeah, PHP5 is awesome, and PHP4 is dead/dying.

    --
    Curtis
     
    Curtis, May 27, 2008
    #16
  17. NC

    AnrDaemon Guest

    Greetings, Ivan Illarionov.
    In reply to Your message dated Monday, May 26, 2008, 04:47:00,

    >> As I've said before - good programmers can write good code in any
    >> language.


    > Yes, they can. But it may be harder to do for them in one language and
    > easier in another.


    It's obvious lie. If you have clear mind and you know language you're using,
    there are absolutely NOTHING can deny you to write clear code.
    Even using forth postfix notation, I have no problem writing good code, it's
    as easy as writing bad code. And yes, I do see the difference.


    --
    Sincerely Yours, AnrDaemon <>
     
    AnrDaemon, May 28, 2008
    #17
  18. On Wed, 28 May 2008 05:10:20 +0400, AnrDaemon wrote:

    > Greetings, Ivan Illarionov.
    > In reply to Your message dated Monday, May 26, 2008, 04:47:00,
    >
    >>> As I've said before - good programmers can write good code in any
    >>> language.

    >
    >> Yes, they can. But it may be harder to do for them in one language and
    >> easier in another.

    >
    > It's obvious lie. If you have clear mind and you know language you're
    > using, there are absolutely NOTHING can deny you to write clear code.
    > Even using forth postfix notation, I have no problem writing good code,
    > it's as easy as writing bad code. And yes, I do see the difference.


    No. Language does matter.
     
    Ivan Illarionov, May 28, 2008
    #18
  19. On Wed, 28 May 2008 01:32:24 +0000, Ivan Illarionov wrote:

    > On Wed, 28 May 2008 05:10:20 +0400, AnrDaemon wrote:
    >
    >> Greetings, Ivan Illarionov.
    >> In reply to Your message dated Monday, May 26, 2008, 04:47:00,
    >>
    >>>> As I've said before - good programmers can write good code in any
    >>>> language.

    >>
    >>> Yes, they can. But it may be harder to do for them in one language and
    >>> easier in another.

    >>
    >> It's obvious lie. If you have clear mind and you know language you're
    >> using, there are absolutely NOTHING can deny you to write clear code.
    >> Even using forth postfix notation, I have no problem writing good code,
    >> it's as easy as writing bad code. And yes, I do see the difference.

    >
    > No. Language does matter.


    I want to add
    TROLL WARNING:
    this message is cross-posted between comp.lang.python and comp.lang.php
    Let's stop.
     
    Ivan Illarionov, May 28, 2008
    #19
  20. On Tue, 27 May 2008 21:47:55 -0400, Jerry Stuckle wrote:

    > Ivan Illarionov wrote:
    >> On Wed, 28 May 2008 05:10:20 +0400, AnrDaemon wrote:
    >>
    >>> Greetings, Ivan Illarionov.
    >>> In reply to Your message dated Monday, May 26, 2008, 04:47:00,
    >>>
    >>>>> As I've said before - good programmers can write good code in any
    >>>>> language.
    >>>> Yes, they can. But it may be harder to do for them in one language
    >>>> and easier in another.
    >>> It's obvious lie. If you have clear mind and you know language you're
    >>> using, there are absolutely NOTHING can deny you to write clear code.
    >>> Even using forth postfix notation, I have no problem writing good
    >>> code, it's as easy as writing bad code. And yes, I do see the
    >>> difference.

    >>
    >> No. Language does matter.

    >
    > Not for a good programmer. Only for half-assed ones.


    No. Language does matter
     
    Ivan Illarionov, May 28, 2008
    #20
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Ted Zeng
    Replies:
    4
    Views:
    512
    Tim Arnold
    Oct 3, 2006
  2. Ted Zeng
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    634
    Ted Zeng
    Oct 13, 2006
  3. torque63
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    622
    torque63
    Jan 1, 2009
  4. raviraj joshi
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    326
    raviraj joshi
    Jul 4, 2009
  5. Rajive Narain
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    1,885
    Rajive Narain
    Sep 18, 2009
Loading...

Share This Page