Re: plaintext

Discussion in 'HTML' started by FatBlokeOnBikepins@pinsmother-truckers.co.uk, Jun 22, 2003.

  1. Guest

    >> >
    >> Simply that such an affectation pursued to the degree in your example,

    >detracts (well, it
    >> soit'nly detracted *me*) from the message the "poem" was trying to convey

    >so much that
    >> all I could see and all I can recall was the construction. The mind

    >boggles as to the
    >> results were the author not limited to the width of one page.
    >>

    >
    >sorry to hear you didn't enjoy the piece that was presented.
    >
    >as with many modern poems, the poem was not "trying to convey" a "message".
    >form is not an affectation but an extension of the content; they are
    >inseparable.

    If it was not trying to convey a message (and there has to be a word better than
    "message") then the whole thing was a complete and utter waste of time and effort; one may
    as well send any form of textual characters, in any order - indeed, in any language.
    The term "message" involves the concept of communication; if all that is communicated is
    that the idea that the originator has a sticky TAB key, well....
    >
    >many poems are not linear; instead they are expressions, projections of
    >sensory perceptions.

    Conveying that is the message.
    asking for a "message" in a poem is like asking "what
    >does a dragonfly mean?" or "what does a symphony mean?" - there is no
    >answer. there is only experience.

    Ooops, I seem to have strayed into the alt.zen group. 'scuse me while I go away and
    practise clapping with one hand.
     
    , Jun 22, 2003
    #1
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  2. Guest

    ..
    Oh dear, an apostle...

    There are none so blind as those who will not see.

    Beg your pudding while I add to my killfile.

    On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 02:03:23 GMT, "Denise Enck" <> wrote:

    ><> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> >
    >> >sorry to hear you didn't enjoy the piece that was presented.
    >> >
    >> >as with many modern poems, the poem was not "trying to convey" a

    >"message".
    >> >form is not an affectation but an extension of the content; they are
    >> >inseparable.

    >> If it was not trying to convey a message (and there has to be a word

    >better than
    >> "message") then the whole thing was a complete and utter waste of time and

    >effort; one may
    >> as well send any form of textual characters, in any order - indeed, in any

    >language.
    >> The term "message" involves the concept of communication; if all that is

    >communicated is
    >> that the idea that the originator has a sticky TAB key, well....

    >
    >words do not always send a "message" though they may indeed communicate. the
    >form also communicates.
    >think of this: your words above take the form of sentences & communicate a
    >certain thing.
    >in another form the same words - even in the same sequence - may convey
    >something else completely.
    >
    >modern, postmodern, & experimental poetry, unlike other (for example,
    >traditional) poetry, are not didactic or linear.
    >
    >much contemporary poetry - as most art - is about making connections between
    >things not usually connected, making discoveries; it is proprioceptive,
    >organic & doesn't fit into pre-existing forms (however, that is not to say
    >that sonnets & villanelles, for example, are not still written sometimes).
    >Some of the best poetry since WWII has been influenced by other modern arts,
    >such as painting, sculpture, & jazz. It is most often not presented in
    >traditional forms such as neat stanzas with each line beginning with a
    >capital letter & bumped agains the left margin....the way you (& most of us)
    >probably read poetry back in school.
    >
    >what is not possible is an equation such as:
    >this poem = this meaning
    >poems are not a code to be broken or a riddle to be solved. they may
    >communicate, they may have a message, but they are not encrypted - they can
    >only exist as they are.
    >
    >what is the message of a Jackson Pollock painting or of a Coltrane tune?
    >They are to be experienced - you can't ascribe a particular "meaning" or
    >"message" to either. The same is true for poetry.
    >
    >> >many poems are not linear; instead they are expressions, projections

    >of
    >> >sensory perceptions.

    >> Conveying that is the message.
    >> asking for a "message" in a poem is like asking "what
    >> >does a dragonfly mean?" or "what does a symphony mean?" - there is no
    >> >answer. there is only experience.

    >> Ooops, I seem to have strayed into the alt.zen group. 'scuse me while I

    >go away and
    >> practise clapping with one hand.

    >
    >Yes, a study of Zen would certainly shed light on modern poetics, much of
    >which has been influenced (especially since the 1950s) either directly, or
    >indirectly, by Buddhism and other Eastern philosophies.
    >
    >if you are interested in learning more about modern poetry & open forms, I
    >would suggest:
    >http://unix.cc.wmich.edu/~cooneys/poems/proj.verse.html projective verse
    >http://www.corpse.org/issue_4/critical_urgencies/ferling.htm Lawrence
    >Ferlinghetti's essay on modern poetics - especially wonderful is his "What
    >is Poetry?"
    >http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/ click on any of the links for poems by some
    >of the best-known modern poets
    >http://www.emptymirrorbooks.com/ excellent resource for Beat Generation &
    >modern poetry books & information including poems
    >
    >as this has veered waaayyyy away from the subject of "acceptable uses of the
    ><pre> tag," if you would like to discuss modern poetics further please feel
    >free to drop me an email ~
    >
    >cheers ~
    >Denise
    >
    >
     
    , Jun 23, 2003
    #2
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  3. Denise Enck Guest

    <FatBlokeOnBikepins> wrote in message
    news:...
    > .
    > Oh dear, an apostle...
    >
    > There are none so blind as those who will not see.
    >
    > Beg your pudding while I add to my killfile.
    >
    > On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 02:03:23 GMT, "Denise Enck" wrote:
    >
    > ><> wrote in message
    > >news:...
    > >> >
    > >> >sorry to hear you didn't enjoy the piece that was presented.
    > >> >
    > >> >as with many modern poems, the poem was not "trying to convey" a

    > >"message".
    > >> >form is not an affectation but an extension of the content; they

    are
    > >> >inseparable.
    > >> If it was not trying to convey a message (and there has to be a word

    > >better than
    > >> "message") then the whole thing was a complete and utter waste of

    time and
    > >effort; one may
    > >> as well send any form of textual characters, in any order - indeed,

    in any
    > >language.
    > >> The term "message" involves the concept of communication; if all

    that is
    > >communicated is
    > >> that the idea that the originator has a sticky TAB key, well....

    > >
    > >words do not always send a "message" though they may indeed

    communicate. the
    > >form also communicates.
    > >think of this: your words above take the form of sentences &

    communicate a
    > >certain thing.
    > >in another form the same words - even in the same sequence - may

    convey
    > >something else completely.
    > >
    > >modern, postmodern, & experimental poetry, unlike other (for example,
    > >traditional) poetry, are not didactic or linear.
    > >
    > >much contemporary poetry - as most art - is about making connections

    between
    > >things not usually connected, making discoveries; it is

    proprioceptive,
    > >organic & doesn't fit into pre-existing forms (however, that is not to

    say
    > >that sonnets & villanelles, for example, are not still written

    sometimes).
    > >Some of the best poetry since WWII has been influenced by other modern

    arts,
    > >such as painting, sculpture, & jazz. It is most often not presented in
    > >traditional forms such as neat stanzas with each line beginning with a
    > >capital letter & bumped agains the left margin....the way you (& most

    of us)
    > >probably read poetry back in school.
    > >
    > >what is not possible is an equation such as:
    > >this poem = this meaning
    > >poems are not a code to be broken or a riddle to be solved. they may
    > >communicate, they may have a message, but they are not encrypted -

    they can
    > >only exist as they are.
    > >
    > >what is the message of a Jackson Pollock painting or of a Coltrane

    tune?
    > >They are to be experienced - you can't ascribe a particular "meaning"

    or
    > >"message" to either. The same is true for poetry.
    > >
    > >> >many poems are not linear; instead they are expressions,

    projections
    > >of
    > >> >sensory perceptions.
    > >> Conveying that is the message.
    > >> asking for a "message" in a poem is like asking "what
    > >> >does a dragonfly mean?" or "what does a symphony mean?" - there

    is no
    > >> >answer. there is only experience.
    > >> Ooops, I seem to have strayed into the alt.zen group. 'scuse me

    while I
    > >go away and
    > >> practise clapping with one hand.

    > >
    > >Yes, a study of Zen would certainly shed light on modern poetics, much

    of
    > >which has been influenced (especially since the 1950s) either

    directly, or
    > >indirectly, by Buddhism and other Eastern philosophies.
    > >
    > >if you are interested in learning more about modern poetry & open

    forms, I
    > >would suggest:
    > >http://unix.cc.wmich.edu/~cooneys/poems/proj.verse.html projective

    verse
    > >http://www.corpse.org/issue_4/critical_urgencies/ferling.htm Lawrence
    > >Ferlinghetti's essay on modern poetics - especially wonderful is his

    "What
    > >is Poetry?"
    > >http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/ click on any of the links for poems by

    some
    > >of the best-known modern poets
    > >http://www.emptymirrorbooks.com/ excellent resource for Beat

    Generation &
    > >modern poetry books & information including poems
    > >
    > >as this has veered waaayyyy away from the subject of "acceptable uses

    of the
    > ><pre> tag," if you would like to discuss modern poetics further please

    feel
    > >free to drop me an email ~
    > >
    > >cheers ~
    > >Denise
    > >


    whatever....

    and PLEASE do not top-post here! if you do so, it is you who will
    undoubtedly be killfiled by many in this group.

    best,
    Denise
     
    Denise Enck, Jun 23, 2003
    #3
  4. Headless Guest

    "Denise Enck" <> wrote:

    [huge snip]

    >and PLEASE do not top-post here! if you do so, it is you who will
    >undoubtedly be killfiled by many in this group.


    Before you start lecturing others: there's one thing worse than top
    posting: bottom posting without snipping (as you are doing).


    Headless
     
    Headless, Jun 23, 2003
    #4
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