Re: programming by evolution?

Discussion in 'Java' started by Xah Lee, Feb 5, 2009.

  1. Xah Lee

    Xah Lee Guest

    looking at the eXtreme Programing fuckheads's traffic history:
    http://groups.google.com/group/comp.software.extreme-programming/about

    for those who are not aware, it was one of the snake oil wildly
    popular in around 2001.

    Xah
    ∑ http://xahlee.org/

    ☄


    Jason wrote:
    I just started reading OnLisp and hit this quote:

    Why wait for hindsight? As Montaigne found, nothing clarifies your
    ideas like trying to write them down. Once you’re freed from the worry
    that you’ll paint yourself into a corner, you can take full advantage
    of this possibility. The ability to plan programs as you write them
    has two momentous consequences: programs take less time to write,
    because when you plan and write at the same time, you have a real
    program to focus your attention; and they turn out better, because the
    final design is always a product of evolution. So long as you maintain
    a certain discipline while searching for your program’s destiny—so
    long as you always rewrite mistaken parts as soon as it becomes clear
    that they’re mistaken—the final product will be a program more elegant
    than if you had spent weeks planning it beforehand.

    I've always heard "design is 90% of the job. You have to have a good
    design in place before writing anything."

    This quote from OnLisp is a radical paradigm for me (being an engineer
    who designs things). My question to you is does this apply in
    practice? In the real world when the rubber hits the road, can you
    program this way and develop good software used by lots of people?


    -----------------

    On Feb 4, 10:36 pm, Xah Lee <> wrote:

    yes and no. The problem is that such opinion is not a scientific
    opinion. It can't be verified or denied.

    Any dynamic lang, such as Python, PHP, Ruby, Mathematica can be said
    the same thing. And, prob more so for functional langs.

    The langs that this cannot be done, is C, Java, where the lang is
    inflexible, low level, or requires big structure that's hard to
    change.

    if you want software engineering books, i suggest try some books that
    are based on statistical survey, as opposed to some dignitary's
    “opinion†or current fashion & trends that comes with a jargon. These
    type of books are a dime a dozen, every year, they come and go. The
    stastical survey approach takes major understaking and cost. The
    opinion type any motherfucking “guru†can write. e.g. Paul Graham has
    you buy into certain concept of “hackers†fucker and claim they are
    like “paintersâ€. Certain Gabriel wants you to believe in poetry and C
    is the last language. (see Book Review: Patterns of
    Softwarehttp://xahlee.org/PageTwo_dir/Personal_dir/bookReviewRichardGabriel..html
    ) et al. Certain Gosling wants you to believe Java is the last lang on
    earth that'll wipe out Microsoft (circa 1998).

    Pascal Constanza wrote:
    > Yes. There are actually complete software development methodologies
    > built around these ideas. Google for "extreme programming" and "agile
    > software methodologies".


    Pascal Constanza is a Common Lisp fanatic. Note here, that eXtreme
    Programing is one of the snake oil, that ran like rampant wild fire in
    the industry around 2002, with many books published on it on the
    supposed motherfucking hip Software Engineering practices, but today
    you don't hear much of it. I haven't looked at “Agile programingâ€
    agile my ass, but it is probably a waste of time.

    .... what society overwhelmingly asks for is snake oil. Of course, the
    snake oil has the most impressive names —otherwise you would be
    selling nothing— like “Structured Analysis and Designâ€, “Software
    Engineeringâ€, “Maturity Modelsâ€, “Management Information Systemsâ€,
    “Integrated Project Support Environments†“Object Orientation†and
    “Business Process Re-engineering†(the latter three being known as
    IPSE, OO and BPR, respectively).†— Edsger W Dijkstra (1930-2002), in
    EWD 1175: The strengths of the academic enterprise.

    you want to be a good programer? Study math, the math of programing,
    and master the langs and protocols and tools you use. You want to
    climb the tech industry ladder? get better at people, learn politics.
    You want to be rich? Study business. Chances are, you are a coding
    geek, and at heart you dna is not geared to be interested in politics
    or business, and you'll never be rich or big ceo just because of that.

    See also:
    • Why Software Suck
    http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/why_software_suck.html

    Xah
    ∑ http://xahlee.org/

    ☄
     
    Xah Lee, Feb 5, 2009
    #1
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  2. Pascal Costanza, Feb 6, 2009
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Xah Lee

    blue indigo Guest

    On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 14:32:21 +0100, Pascal Costanza wrote:

    > Xah Lee wrote:
    >> Pascal Constanza is a Common Lisp fanatic.

    >
    > It's Costanza, not Constanza.
    >
    >
    > Thank you,
    > Pascal


    +-------------------+ .:\:\:/:/:.
    | PLEASE DO NOT | :.:\:\:/:/:.:
    | FEED THE TROLLS | :=.' - - '.=:
    | | '=(\ 9 9 /)='
    | Thank you, | ( (_) )
    | Management | /`-vvv-'\
    +-------------------+ / \
    | | @@@ / /|,,,,,|\ \
    | | @@@ /_// /^\ \\_\
    @x@@x@ | | |/ WW( ( ) )WW
    \||||/ | | \| __\,,\ /,,/__
    \||/ | | | (______Y______)
    /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
    ==================================================================

    (f'up set to comp.lang.lisp)

    --
    blue indigo
    UA Telecom since 1987
     
    blue indigo, Feb 8, 2009
    #3
  4. Xah Lee

    Xah Lee Guest

    Xah Lee wrote:
    > ...
    > if you want software engineering books, i suggest try some books that
    > are based on statistical survey, as opposed to some dignitary's
    > “opinion†or current fashion & trends that comes with a jargon. These
    > type of books are a dime a dozen, every year, they come and go. The
    > stastical survey approach takes major understaking and cost. The
    > opinion type any motherfucking “guru†can write. e.g. Paul Graham has
    > you buy into certain concept of “hackers†fucker and claim they are
    > like “paintersâ€. Certain Gabriel wants you to believe in poetry and C
    > is the last language. (see Book Review: Patterns of
    > Software
    > http://xahlee.org/PageTwo_dir/Personal_dir/bookReviewRichardGabriel.html
    > ) et al. Certain Gosling wants you to believe Java is the last lang on
    > earth that'll wipe out Microsoft (circa 1998).
    >
    > ...
    >
    > ... what society overwhelmingly asks for is snake oil. Of course, the
    > snake oil has the most impressive names —otherwise you would be
    > selling nothing— like “Structured Analysis and Designâ€, “Software
    > Engineeringâ€, “Maturity Modelsâ€, “Management Information Systemsâ€,
    > “Integrated Project Support Environments†“Object Orientation†and
    > “Business Process Re-engineering†(the latter three being known as
    > IPSE, OO and BPR, respectively).†— Edsger W Dijkstra (1930-2002), in
    > EWD 1175: The strengths of the academic enterprise.
    >
    > you want to be a good programer? Study math, the math of programing,
    > and master the langs and protocols and tools you use. You want to
    > climb the tech industry ladder? get better at people, learn politics.
    > You want to be rich? Study business. Chances are, you are a coding
    > geek, and at heart you dna is not geared to be interested in politics
    > or business, and you'll never be rich or big ceo just because of that.
    >
    > See also:
    > • Why Software Suck
    > http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/why_software_suck.html
    >
    > looking at the eXtreme Programing fuckheads's traffic history:
    > http://groups.google.com/group/comp.software.extreme-programming/about
    >
    > for those who are not aware, it was one of the snake oil wildly
    > popular in around 2001.


    Today, i happened to run across a blog on the eXtreme Programing ****.

    http://www.yosefk.com/blog/extreme-programming-explained.html

    Great article!

    Xah
    ∑ http://xahlee.org/

    ☄
     
    Xah Lee, Feb 9, 2009
    #4
  5. In article <>,
    Xah Lee <> wrote:
    <SNIP>
    >
    >Pascal Constanza wrote:
    >> Yes. There are actually complete software development methodologies
    >> built around these ideas. Google for "extreme programming" and "agile
    >> software methodologies".

    >
    >Pascal Constanza is a Common Lisp fanatic. Note here, that eXtreme
    >Programing is one of the snake oil, that ran like rampant wild fire in
    >the industry around 2002, with many books published on it on the
    >supposed motherfucking hip Software Engineering practices, but today
    >you don't hear much of it. I haven't looked at =E2=80=9CAgile programing=E2=
    >=80=9D
    >agile my ass, but it is probably a waste of time.
    >
    >... what society overwhelmingly asks for is snake oil. Of course, the
    >snake oil has the most impressive names =E2=80=94otherwise you would be
    >selling nothing=E2=80=94 like =E2=80=9CStructured Analysis and Design=E2=80=
    >=9D, =E2=80=9CSoftware
    >Engineering=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CMaturity Models=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CManagemen=
    >t Information Systems=E2=80=9D,
    >=E2=80=9CIntegrated Project Support Environments=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9CObject O=
    >rientation=E2=80=9D and
    >=E2=80=9CBusiness Process Re-engineering=E2=80=9D (the latter three being k=
    >nown as
    >IPSE, OO and BPR, respectively).=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 Edsger W Dijkstra (1930=
    >-2002), in
    >EWD 1175: The strengths of the academic enterprise.
    >


    A couple of weeks ago, a collegue of mine held a lecture about
    a company where he is hired,
    building paper-folding and envelope-handling machines.
    (We are hired hands).
    Real time, and real time simulators. Full regression tests
    after each change. Agile scrum all the way down.

    It looks impressive especially from where I stand. ( Formal procedures that
    take 6 months, and bad fixes because approved changes were no
    good after all.)

    So not dead by a margin, and less snake oil than most methodologies
    I know of.

    > Xah


    Groetjes Albert

    --
    --
    Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
    Economic growth -- like all pyramid schemes -- ultimately falters.
    albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
     
    Albert van der Horst, Feb 19, 2009
    #5
  6. Xah Lee

    Roedy Green Guest

    On 19 Feb 2009 18:56:42 GMT, Albert van der Horst
    <4all.nl> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone
    who said :

    >Note here, that eXtreme
    >>Programing is one of the snake oil,


    Extreme programming is a variant on Deming's idea of constant
    incremental improvement that revolutionised quality in manufacturing.

    It is also based on the obvious idea that you will be smarter after
    you have used some version of a program than you are today. There are
    so many computer programs perfectly compliant with specs that looked
    good on paper but nobody ever tested with actual use to refine them
    until the project was "complete" and it was too expensive to fix them.


    --
    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    http://mindprod.com

    One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other,
    to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.
    ~ Woody Allen .
     
    Roedy Green, Feb 23, 2009
    #6
  7. Xah Lee

    Xah Lee Guest

    On Feb 23, 4:56 am, Roedy Green <>
    wrote:
    > On 19 Feb 2009 18:56:42 GMT, Albert van der Horst
    > <4all.nl> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone
    > who said :
    >
    > >Note here, that eXtreme
    > >>Programing is one of the snake oil,

    >
    > Extreme programming is a variant on Deming's idea of constant
    > incremental improvement that revolutionised quality in manufacturing.
    >
    > It is also based on the obvious idea that you will be smarter after
    > you have used some version of a program than you are today. There are
    > so many computer programs perfectly compliant with specs that looked
    > good on paper but nobody ever tested with actual use to refine them
    > until the project was "complete" and it was too expensive to fix them.


    2009-02-09

    Today, i happened to run across a blog on the eXtreme Programing
    ****.
    http://www.yosefk.com/blog/extreme-programming-explained.html

    Great article!

    Xah
    $B-t(B http://xahlee.org/
     
    Xah Lee, Feb 23, 2009
    #7
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