Re: Python evolution: Unease

Discussion in 'Python' started by Carlos Ribeiro, Jan 4, 2005.

  1. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 10:39:10 -0300, Batista, Facundo
    <> wrote:
    > #- need: a better standard ide, an integrated db interface with
    > #- a proper
    > #- set of db drivers (!!), a better debugger, a standard widget/windows
    > #- toolkit, something akin to a standard for web programming, better
    > #- documentation, a standard lib which is better organized, a
    > #- formalized
    > #- set of protocols and patterns for program construction. And an
    > #- interpreter which is fast enough to avoid using C or Pyrex in most
    > #- obvious cases.
    >
    > Let's take one by one:


    I'll take only a few ;-)

    > - IDE: Better than what? Than IDLE? Than Eclipse? Than SPE? Than Pythonwin?


    I would like to seee Eric3, with some polish & opensourced on Win
    (which means solving the Qt licensing problem). Perhaps someone could
    convince Trolltech to release a special Qt Win version just for it
    (Eric3). Eclipse is also an interesting approach.

    > - Integrated DB interface with a proper set of db drivers (what means the
    > "!!"?): What do you mean with an integrated db interface? An standard API to
    > access different DB engines? Something like the Database API specification
    > (http://www.python.org/topics/database/DatabaseAPI-2.0.html)? There's a SIG
    > on DB at http://www.python.org/sigs/db-sig/ you may want to look at.
    > Regarding drivers, to what DB do you miss one?


    At the risk of starting a huge flamewar, let's state my opinion on
    this. The DBAPI itself is not a problem, despite several debates about
    improvements and talks about a future version 3. On the other hand, I
    wish I could simply plug & play DBAPI modules in a totally seamlessly
    way. Anyone who tried know how far are we of this dream.

    At the risk of sounding pessimistic, I don't see plug & play
    interoperability between DBAPI drivers happening anytime soon. The
    work is simply way too fragmented. There's no real incentive for
    compatibility, besides the good will of individual developers, who are
    always busy and also, that have to keep their own code running. The
    only way it will work, IMHO, is: if a single entity implements a
    common API, be it the DBAPI2.0 or whatever, for a sufficiently large
    number of existing database systems. You may call it a "imposed
    standard". I don't mind. But it would solve the problem.

    > - Standard widget/windows toolkit: More standard than Tk?


    I may be wrong, but I think that most business developers expect more
    than Tk is able to offer... Canvas is great, but anyone who used more
    advanced toolkits (such as the ones available on Delphi, Java, or C#)
    surely require a lot more.

    --
    Carlos Ribeiro
    Consultoria em Projetos
    blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com
    blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com
    mail:
    mail:
     
    Carlos Ribeiro, Jan 4, 2005
    #1
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  2. Carlos Ribeiro

    Bulba! Guest

    On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 15:18:48 -0200, Carlos Ribeiro
    <> wrote:

    >> Let's take one by one:


    >I'll take only a few ;-)


    >> - IDE: Better than what? Than IDLE? Than Eclipse? Than SPE? Than Pythonwin?

    >
    >I would like to seee Eric3, with some polish & opensourced on Win
    >(which means solving the Qt licensing problem).


    I second that. I still haven't used Eric3 much, which means I didn't
    exploit it in full yet, but I like it a lot. And yes, Qt licensing is
    a big problem for me, because for non-technical reasons I have
    to work on Windows: when my eval Qt license runs out of time,
    no more eric3 for folks like me.



    --

    Real world is perfectly indifferent to lies that
    are the foundation of leftist "thinking".
     
    Bulba!, Jan 4, 2005
    #2
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  3. Carlos Ribeiro <> wrote:
    ...
    > > - IDE: Better than what? Than IDLE? Than Eclipse? Than SPE? Than Pythonwin?

    >
    > I would like to seee Eric3, with some polish & opensourced on Win
    > (which means solving the Qt licensing problem). Perhaps someone could
    > convince Trolltech to release a special Qt Win version just for it
    > (Eric3). Eclipse is also an interesting approach.


    I love eric3, but if you're an eclipse fan, look at enthought's
    "envisage" IDE -- it seems to me that it has superb promise.

    > wish I could simply plug & play DBAPI modules in a totally seamlessly
    > way. Anyone who tried know how far are we of this dream.


    If you manage to get there, you'll start fighting against the different
    dialects of SQL supported by the various back-ends, as is well known by
    anybody who tried, say, ODBC or ADO, which do manage good plug&play of
    their components but still can't solve the real hard one:-(


    Alex
     
    Alex Martelli, Jan 5, 2005
    #3
  4. On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 19:25:37 +0100, Alex Martelli <> wrote:
    > Carlos Ribeiro <> wrote:
    > ...
    > > > - IDE: Better than what? Than IDLE? Than Eclipse? Than SPE? Than Pythonwin?

    > >
    > > I would like to seee Eric3, with some polish & opensourced on Win
    > > (which means solving the Qt licensing problem). Perhaps someone could
    > > convince Trolltech to release a special Qt Win version just for it
    > > (Eric3). Eclipse is also an interesting approach.

    >
    > I love eric3, but if you're an eclipse fan, look at enthought's
    > "envisage" IDE -- it seems to me that it has superb promise.


    Hint noted.

    > > wish I could simply plug & play DBAPI modules in a totally seamlessly
    > > way. Anyone who tried know how far are we of this dream.

    >
    > If you manage to get there, you'll start fighting against the different
    > dialects of SQL supported by the various back-ends, as is well known by
    > anybody who tried, say, ODBC or ADO, which do manage good plug&play of
    > their components but still can't solve the real hard one:-(


    Ian Bicking's SQLObject goes a long way to solve this problem. It's a
    ORM, not a complete relational solution, mind you. However, while it's
    architecturally oriented towards solving the high-level SQL-to-object
    mapping issues, a good deal of time is spent solving things that a
    common plug & play API could solve.

    IOW: the hard problem really does exist. However, we never come to
    face it because we're still stuck in the "easy" one. :-(

    --
    Carlos Ribeiro
    Consultoria em Projetos
    blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com
    blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com
    mail:
    mail:
     
    Carlos Ribeiro, Jan 5, 2005
    #4
  5. Alex Martelli wrote:
    > Carlos Ribeiro <> wrote:
    > ...
    >
    >>>- IDE: Better than what? Than IDLE? Than Eclipse? Than SPE? Than Pythonwin?

    >>
    >>I would like to seee Eric3, with some polish & opensourced on Win
    >>(which means solving the Qt licensing problem). Perhaps someone could
    >>convince Trolltech to release a special Qt Win version just for it
    >>(Eric3). Eclipse is also an interesting approach.

    >
    >
    > I love eric3, but if you're an eclipse fan, look at enthought's
    > "envisage" IDE -- it seems to me that it has superb promise.
    >


    I've tried both the SciPy and Enthought WWW sites and I can't find much
    on "Envisage". At SciPy.org there is one set of powerpoint slides on it
    but nothing more.

    Is it available for download somewhere?

    --
    Mike
     
    Mike Thompson, Jan 6, 2005
    #5
  6. Carlos Ribeiro

    Robert Kern Guest

    Mike Thompson wrote:
    > Alex Martelli wrote:
    >
    >> Carlos Ribeiro <> wrote:
    >> ...
    >>
    >>>> - IDE: Better than what? Than IDLE? Than Eclipse? Than SPE? Than
    >>>> Pythonwin?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> I would like to seee Eric3, with some polish & opensourced on Win
    >>> (which means solving the Qt licensing problem). Perhaps someone could
    >>> convince Trolltech to release a special Qt Win version just for it
    >>> (Eric3). Eclipse is also an interesting approach.

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> I love eric3, but if you're an eclipse fan, look at enthought's
    >> "envisage" IDE -- it seems to me that it has superb promise.
    >>

    >
    > I've tried both the SciPy and Enthought WWW sites and I can't find much
    > on "Envisage". At SciPy.org there is one set of powerpoint slides on it
    > but nothing more.
    >
    > Is it available for download somewhere?


    Alex is, I think, jumping the gun a bit. Envisage isn't quite ready for
    prime time as your day to day IDE. It might be useful to you right now
    as a platform to build a dynamic GUI application (Envisage's intended
    use) if you are willing to get your hands dirty and help us build
    Envisage. Hence, it is not being advertised widely.

    But Alex is right; Envisage does hold a lot of promise.

    --
    Robert Kern


    "In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
    Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
    -- Richard Harter
     
    Robert Kern, Jan 6, 2005
    #6
  7. Robert Kern <> wrote:
    ...
    > >> I love eric3, but if you're an eclipse fan, look at enthought's
    > >> "envisage" IDE -- it seems to me that it has superb promise.

    ...
    > > Is it available for download somewhere?

    >
    > Alex is, I think, jumping the gun a bit. Envisage isn't quite ready for
    > prime time as your day to day IDE. It might be useful to you right now


    I apologize if I gave a misleading impression: I did not mean it was
    ready to use, or _already_ here; I suggested "looking at" in the sense
    of "paying attention to", and specifically mentioned "promise".

    Since the subthread was about future IDE developments, I thought it was
    appropriate to mention envisage, in the context of comparisons with
    eclipse's plugin-centered architecture.

    > as a platform to build a dynamic GUI application (Envisage's intended
    > use) if you are willing to get your hands dirty and help us build
    > Envisage. Hence, it is not being advertised widely.


    I saw a Pycon proposed talk about it, so I didn't stop to consider the
    "not advertised widely" issue. Thinking about it, I realize Pycon is
    almost 3 months from now, so wanting to enthuse about envisage then
    doesn't imply already wanting to widely advertise it now; sorry.

    > But Alex is right; Envisage does hold a lot of promise.


    The very concept of an architecture based on a spare skeleton and
    copious plugins is intrinsically excellent, and I think that by now
    eclipse has proven it's also practically viable for real-world powerful
    IDEs/platforms/frameworks.


    Alex
     
    Alex Martelli, Jan 6, 2005
    #7
  8. Alex Martelli ha scritto:


    >>But Alex is right; Envisage does hold a lot of promise.

    >
    >
    > The very concept of an architecture based on a spare skeleton and
    > copious plugins is intrinsically excellent, and I think that by now
    > eclipse has proven it's also practically viable for real-world powerful
    > IDEs/platforms/frameworks.
    >


    I think this had been demonstrated from emacs long before :)
     
    gabriele renzi, Jan 6, 2005
    #8
  9. Carlos Ribeiro

    Robert Kern Guest

    Alex Martelli wrote:
    > Robert Kern <> wrote:
    > ...
    >
    >>>>I love eric3, but if you're an eclipse fan, look at enthought's
    >>>>"envisage" IDE -- it seems to me that it has superb promise.

    >
    > ...
    >
    >>>Is it available for download somewhere?

    >>
    >>Alex is, I think, jumping the gun a bit. Envisage isn't quite ready for
    >>prime time as your day to day IDE. It might be useful to you right now

    >
    >
    > I apologize if I gave a misleading impression: I did not mean it was
    > ready to use, or _already_ here; I suggested "looking at" in the sense
    > of "paying attention to", and specifically mentioned "promise".
    >
    > Since the subthread was about future IDE developments, I thought it was
    > appropriate to mention envisage, in the context of comparisons with
    > eclipse's plugin-centered architecture.


    The subthread was? Okay. Never mind me, then. The threading got broken
    up in my newsreader and I couldn't tell the context.

    >>as a platform to build a dynamic GUI application (Envisage's intended
    >>use) if you are willing to get your hands dirty and help us build
    >>Envisage. Hence, it is not being advertised widely.

    >
    >
    > I saw a Pycon proposed talk about it, so I didn't stop to consider the
    > "not advertised widely" issue. Thinking about it, I realize Pycon is
    > almost 3 months from now, so wanting to enthuse about envisage then
    > doesn't imply already wanting to widely advertise it now; sorry.


    No worries.

    The SVN repository address isn't being kept secret, just not advertised
    much. If anyone is interested in anonymous read-access, they can ask me
    for the address.

    --
    Robert Kern


    "In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
    Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
    -- Richard Harter
     
    Robert Kern, Jan 6, 2005
    #9
  10. Carlos Ribeiro

    David Fraser Guest

    Alex Martelli wrote:
    > Carlos Ribeiro <> wrote:
    > ...
    >
    >>wish I could simply plug & play DBAPI modules in a totally seamlessly
    >>way. Anyone who tried know how far are we of this dream.

    >
    >
    > If you manage to get there, you'll start fighting against the different
    > dialects of SQL supported by the various back-ends, as is well known by
    > anybody who tried, say, ODBC or ADO, which do manage good plug&play of
    > their components but still can't solve the real hard one:-(


    I've found I can get by nicely by just supporting stock standard bottom
    end SQL and not using any database-specific features. Just requires a
    little wrapper code for some functions

    David
     
    David Fraser, Jan 7, 2005
    #10
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