Re: Python IDE/text-editor

Discussion in 'Python' started by Chris Angelico, Apr 16, 2011.

  1. Based on the comments here, it seems that emacs would have to be the
    editor-in-chief for programmers. I currently use SciTE at work; is it
    reasonable to, effectively, bill my employer for the time it'll take
    me to learn emacs? I'm using a lot of the same features that the OP
    was requesting (multiple files open at once, etc), plus I like syntax
    highlighting (multiple languages necessary - I'm often developing
    simultaneously in C++, Pike, PHP, and gnu make, as well as Python).

    My current "main editors" are SciTE when I have a GUI, and nano when I
    don't (over ssh and such). Mastering emacs would definitely take time;
    I'm not really sure if I can justify it ("Chris, what did you achieve
    this week?" "I learned how to get emacs to make coffee.")...

    Chris Angelico
    Chris Angelico, Apr 16, 2011
    #1
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  2. Chris Angelico

    rusi Guest

    On Apr 16, 9:13 pm, Chris Angelico <> wrote:
    > Based on the comments here, it seems that emacs would have to be the
    > editor-in-chief for programmers. I currently use SciTE at work; is it
    > reasonable to, effectively, bill my employer for the time it'll take
    > me to learn emacs?


    It takes a day or two to learn emacs.

    It takes forever to set it up.

    [How many shots of cocaine are are needed to de-addict a cocaine
    addict? ]

    > I'm using a lot of the same features that the OP
    > was requesting (multiple files open at once, etc), plus I like syntax
    > highlighting (multiple languages necessary - I'm often developing
    > simultaneously in C++, Pike, PHP, and gnu make, as well as Python).
    >
    > My current "main editors" are SciTE when I have a GUI, and nano when I
    > don't (over ssh and such). Mastering emacs would definitely take time;
    > I'm not really sure if I can justify it ("Chris, what did you achieve
    > this week?" "I learned how to get emacs to make coffee.")...
    >
    > Chris Angelico


    :)

    You are being cute and tart.

    But the problem is real:
    1. emacs can do everything
    2. It does everything badly
    3. All the competition does it worse

    Frankly Ive thought many times of switching to eclipse but the first
    few screens send a chill (or something such) down my spine and I limp
    back unhappily to emacs...
    rusi, Apr 16, 2011
    #2
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  3. Chris Angelico

    John Bokma Guest

    rusi <> writes:

    > On Apr 16, 9:13 pm, Chris Angelico <> wrote:
    >> Based on the comments here, it seems that emacs would have to be the
    >> editor-in-chief for programmers. I currently use SciTE at work; is it
    >> reasonable to, effectively, bill my employer for the time it'll take
    >> me to learn emacs?

    >
    > It takes a day or two to learn emacs.


    That's an extremely bold statement. I still haven't learned Emacs and
    have read most of the Emacs manual, some parts twice.

    Unless you mean openening a file, saving a file, and some basic cursor
    movements.

    > It takes forever to set it up.


    If you mean to make work optimally for your way of editing, probably
    true. You can keep fine tuning, adding/testing stuff, etc.


    --
    John Bokma j3b

    Blog: http://johnbokma.com/ Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/j.j.j.bokma
    Freelance Perl & Python Development: http://castleamber.com/
    John Bokma, Apr 16, 2011
    #3
  4. > It takes a day or two to learn emacs.
    >
    > It takes forever to set it up.


    Remember, Emacs is THE way. It's the light in the darkness, it'll save
    your soul and bring you happiness. Isn't it worth the trouble? :)

    Seriously though, when I was setting my Emacs to work with Python I
    stumbled upon this:
    http://pedrokroger.net/2010/07/configuring-emacs-as-a-python-ide-2/
    Read it and you'll know everything you need to know -- at least to start
    with.

    KTB
    Krzysztof Bieniasz, Apr 17, 2011
    #4
  5. Chris Angelico

    rusi Guest

    On Apr 17, 3:19 am, John Bokma <> wrote:
    > rusi <> writes:
    > > On Apr 16, 9:13 pm, Chris Angelico <> wrote:
    > >> Based on the comments here, it seems that emacs would have to be the
    > >> editor-in-chief for programmers. I currently use SciTE at work; is it
    > >> reasonable to, effectively, bill my employer for the time it'll take
    > >> me to learn emacs?

    >
    > > It takes a day or two to learn emacs.

    >
    > That's an extremely bold statement. I still haven't learned Emacs and
    > have read most of the Emacs manual, some parts twice.
    >
    > Unless you mean opening a file, saving a file, and some basic cursor
    > movements.


    Aren't there people (many in fact) who use notepad or equivalent to
    write programs?
    How many features do they use?
    How long would it take to make a map of those same features in emacs?
    And add a handful more to make the switchover worthwhile?
    rusi, Apr 17, 2011
    #5
  6. Chris Angelico

    rusi Guest

    On Apr 17, 4:12 am, Krzysztof Bieniasz
    <> wrote:
    > > It takes a day or two to learn emacs.

    >
    > > It takes forever to set it up.

    >
    > Remember, Emacs is THE way. It's the light in the darkness, it'll save
    > your soul and bring you happiness. Isn't it worth the trouble? :)
    >
    > Seriously though, when I was setting my Emacs to work with Python I
    > stumbled upon this:http://pedrokroger.net/2010/07/configuring-emacs-as-a-python-ide-2/


    Thanks: Thats a useful link (if it works :D -- I have to try it out)
    And this just underscores my earlier point:
    Getting emacs to work 'any-old-how' is trivial.
    Getting it to work optimally is an unending task.
    rusi, Apr 17, 2011
    #6
  7. Chris Angelico

    John Bokma Guest

    rusi <> writes:

    > On Apr 17, 3:19 am, John Bokma <> wrote:
    >> rusi <> writes:
    >> > On Apr 16, 9:13 pm, Chris Angelico <> wrote:
    >> >> Based on the comments here, it seems that emacs would have to be the
    >> >> editor-in-chief for programmers. I currently use SciTE at work; is it
    >> >> reasonable to, effectively, bill my employer for the time it'll take
    >> >> me to learn emacs?

    >>
    >> > It takes a day or two to learn emacs.

    >>
    >> That's an extremely bold statement. I still haven't learned Emacs and
    >> have read most of the Emacs manual, some parts twice.
    >>
    >> Unless you mean opening a file, saving a file, and some basic cursor
    >> movements.

    >
    > Aren't there people (many in fact) who use notepad or equivalent to
    > write programs?
    > How many features do they use?
    > How long would it take to make a map of those same features in emacs?


    Yeah, if you bring it down to open a file, save a file, and move the
    cursor around, sure you can do that in a day or two (two since you have
    to get used to the "weird" key bindings).

    > And add a handful more to make the switchover worthwhile?


    That's somewhat I did: I used TextPad a lot, and at first I looked for
    how to do what I could in TextPad in Emacs (hence reading the book). But
    that took longer than a day.

    --
    John Bokma j3b

    Blog: http://johnbokma.com/ Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/j.j.j.bokma
    Freelance Perl & Python Development: http://castleamber.com/
    John Bokma, Apr 17, 2011
    #7
  8. Chris Angelico

    rusi Guest

    On Apr 17, 8:22 am, John Bokma <> wrote:
    > rusi <> writes:
    > > On Apr 17, 3:19 am, John Bokma <> wrote:
    > >> rusi <> writes:
    > >> > On Apr 16, 9:13 pm, Chris Angelico <> wrote:
    > >> >> Based on the comments here, it seems that emacs would have to be the
    > >> >> editor-in-chief for programmers. I currently use SciTE at work; is it
    > >> >> reasonable to, effectively, bill my employer for the time it'll take
    > >> >> me to learn emacs?

    >
    > >> > It takes a day or two to learn emacs.

    >
    > >> That's an extremely bold statement. I still haven't learned Emacs and
    > >> have read most of the Emacs manual, some parts twice.

    >
    > >> Unless you mean opening a file, saving a file, and some basic cursor
    > >> movements.

    >
    > > Aren't there people (many in fact) who use notepad or equivalent to
    > > write programs?
    > > How many features do they use?
    > > How long would it take to make a map of those same features in emacs?

    >
    > Yeah, if you bring it down to open a file, save a file, and move the
    > cursor around, sure you can do that in a day or two (two since you have
    > to get used to the "weird" key bindings).


    If all one seeks is 'notepad-equivalence' why use any key-binding?
    All this basic ('normal') stuff that other editors do, emacs can also
    do from menus alone.
    rusi, Apr 17, 2011
    #8
  9. Chris Angelico

    Jorgen Grahn Guest

    On Sat, 2011-04-16, Chris Angelico wrote:
    > Based on the comments here, it seems that emacs would have to be the
    > editor-in-chief for programmers. I currently use SciTE at work; is it
    > reasonable to, effectively, bill my employer for the time it'll take
    > me to learn emacs? I'm using a lot of the same features that the OP
    > was requesting (multiple files open at once, etc), plus I like syntax
    > highlighting (multiple languages necessary - I'm often developing
    > simultaneously in C++, Pike, PHP, and gnu make, as well as Python).


    Your editor seems popular, free, cross-platform and capable ... if you
    already know it well, I can't see why you should switch.

    Unless you're truly not productive in SciTE, but I'd have to watch
    you use it for hours to tell.

    (That should really be a new job title. Just as there are aerobics
    instructors or whatever at the gyms to help you use the equipment
    there safely and efficiently, there should be text editor instructors!)

    /Jorgen

    --
    // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
    \X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
    Jorgen Grahn, Apr 17, 2011
    #9
  10. On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Jorgen Grahn <> wrote:
    > (That should really be a new job title. Just as there are aerobics
    > instructors or whatever at the gyms to help you use the equipment
    > there safely and efficiently, there should be text editor instructors!)


    You nearly had me crack up laughing in the middle of a church
    meeting... Yes! We need text editor instructors.

    "Don't forget that you can press F7 to make."

    "You could do that more easily with C-x M-c M-butterfly."

    Chris Angelico
    Chris Angelico, Apr 17, 2011
    #10
  11. Am Sat, 16 Apr 2011 22:22:19 -0500
    schrieb John Bokma <>:

    > Yeah, if you bring it down to open a file, save a file, and move the
    > cursor around, sure you can do that in a day or two (two since you
    > have to get used to the "weird" key bindings).


    Sorry but learning the basic stuff doesnt take any longer than 10 to 30
    minutes and if one doesnt want to learn the shortcuts one can use
    GNU/Emacs GUI and click around.

    Configuring it to do Python optimal could took some hours / days some
    time ago, but now it just takes setting up Emacs for Python and you
    have syntax highlighting, code templates, refactoring and
    auto-completion support.

    Chao

    Balle

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    Bastian Ballmann, Apr 17, 2011
    #11
  12. Chris Angelico

    Alec Taylor Guest

    Thanks for all the replies (I love the python mailing-list!)

    I've tried all the IDEs/text-editors mentioned.

    PyScripter is great, however is unmaintained thus doesn't support
    64-bit :[ (and is a little buggy)
    Also, it requires network connectivity, which could prove troublesome
    on my locked-down Uni network (requires localhost for python shell)

    DreamPIE isn't what I'm looking for.

    Editra has a python plugin? - Excellent! — Got the plugin working...
    is there a shortcut (e.g.: F9) for running the opened python script?

    UliPad is quite good, however badly coded (a new console window opens
    then closes each time I run a script)... I might fix that bug if I
    ever get the time.

    MonoDevelop doesn't seem to support Python (I pressed: "New Solution")

    GEdit probably won't work from a USB, and the embedded console isn't
    user friendly (you'd need to type: "import x.py" or whatever)

    Emacs and vim are good, however I often find myself on a workstation
    without direct console access. GVim leaves a lot aesthetically
    desired. Also there's a learning-curve to both of them, whereas nano,
    and all the text-editors/IDEs above are user-friendly. None I've found
    to have a big learning curve (more about finding the right preference
    to change in settings than anything else!)

    Kate I haven't tried yet... it's currently downloading.

    On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 3:05 AM, Terry Reedy <> wrote:
    > On 4/16/2011 3:03 AM, Alec Taylor wrote:
    >>
    >> IDLE loses syntax highlighting annoyingly often

    >
    > Could you exlain?
    > When does it do that with a file labelled .py?
    >
    > Terry Jan Reedy


    Just randomly, sometimes on first save to a .py, other-times on files
    that I've opened with a .py extension.

    It loses all syntax highlighting!
    Alec Taylor, Apr 17, 2011
    #12
  13. Ben Finney <> writes:

    > As many others in this thread have said, the learning curve pays off in
    > access to a powerful general-purpose tool that you can apply to an
    > enormous range of programming tasks.
    >
    > A reason Vim and Emacs survive while so many thousands of other options
    > rise and fall and are forgotten is in part because Vim and Emacs have
    > gained the maturity and critical mass of community support that ensures
    > you can do just about anything in them.
    >
    > Even if you don't end up liking either of them, you should gain working
    > familiarity with at least one of Vim or Emacs. They are the closest
    > things the programming world has to a standard coding environment and
    > are the most likely to be available and acceptable to your peers where
    > no other familiar option exists.
    >


    +1

    For me simple too often translates to "very dumb" and "limited".
    The only exception in editors I've found was textmate, simple and well
    thought while very powerful and customizable. Too bad it was only for
    OSX and virtually dead (another bad example of great commercial software abandoned).

    But at the same time I think that everyone has to find its way.

    When he'll find himself always doing the same stupid and annoying
    actions because the editor is using is too dumb to have macros/snippets
    (for example) it should be automatic to look for something else.

    Some people are happy using a crappy and easy program though, I think
    you can't really force or convince anyone...
    Andrea Crotti, Apr 17, 2011
    #13
  14. Chris Angelico

    sal migondis Guest

    On Apr 17, 7:09 am, Ben Finney <> wrote:
    > Alec Taylor <> writes:


    [..]

    > > whereas nano, and all the text-editors/IDEs above are user-friendly.


    No they're not 'user-friendly'. They are a user's worst enemy.
    What's
    the point of a computer if all you can come up with is a typewriter
    in
    disguise? Back to the dark ages. I have not tried all of the above,
    but
    a quick peek at nano & imagining I would having to use it for
    anything
    beyond _entering_ text and crossing fingers I ever need to change
    a single comma or fix a single typo sends shivers down my spine.

    > As many others in this thread have said, the learning curve pays off


    [..]

    Ben, I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your post, but in the
    case
    of Vi/Vim... what learning curve..? It takes an hour at most to do
    the
    Vim tutorial. Do it, say 3 times and read Bram Moolenaar's 'Seven
    habits of effective editing' twice and within one week you are
    already
    editing (much) more efficiently and with a lot less frustration than
    with
    those supposedly 'user-friendly' editors. And contrary to Notepad and
    its descendants your editing experience will keep improving. Now that
    is the difference between a _real_ friend a passing acquaintance.

    Sal.
    sal migondis, Apr 17, 2011
    #14
  15. Chris Angelico

    John Bokma Guest

    rusi <> writes:

    [ Notepad -> Emacs ]
    > If all one seeks is 'notepad-equivalence' why use any key-binding?
    > All this basic ('normal') stuff that other editors do, emacs can also
    > do from menus alone.


    OK, true. Anyway, I highly doubt anyone using Notepad as an editor is
    going to switch to Emacs to begin with :-D.

    --
    John Bokma j3b

    Blog: http://johnbokma.com/ Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/j.j.j.bokma
    Freelance Perl & Python Development: http://castleamber.com/
    John Bokma, Apr 17, 2011
    #15
  16. Chris Angelico

    John Bokma Guest

    Bastian Ballmann <> writes:

    > Am Sat, 16 Apr 2011 22:22:19 -0500
    > schrieb John Bokma <>:
    >
    >> Yeah, if you bring it down to open a file, save a file, and move the
    >> cursor around, sure you can do that in a day or two (two since you
    >> have to get used to the "weird" key bindings).

    >
    > Sorry but learning the basic stuff doesnt take any longer than 10 to 30
    > minutes and if one doesnt want to learn the shortcuts one can use
    > GNU/Emacs GUI and click around.


    My experience is different, but I am sure that we define basic stuff
    different. Things like how copy paste works, deleting, and undo (and
    redo!) will take certainly more than 10-30 minutes. Unless you don't
    want to use those features, that is. Even if you do everything via the
    menus (and who reads here is going to do that) there are still surprises
    (where is redo?).

    > Configuring it to do Python optimal could took some hours / days some
    > time ago, but now it just takes setting up Emacs for Python and you
    > have syntax highlighting, code templates, refactoring and
    > auto-completion support.


    Yeah, sure. And learning Python takes also just 5 days...

    Like I wrote, I am still learning Emacs (and Python). And I don't think
    I am more dense than you. Just more honest about learning ;-).

    --
    John Bokma j3b

    Blog: http://johnbokma.com/ Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/j.j.j.bokma
    Freelance Perl & Python Development: http://castleamber.com/
    John Bokma, Apr 17, 2011
    #16
  17. Chris Angelico

    John Bokma Guest

    Alec Taylor <> writes:

    > Emacs and vim are good, however I often find myself on a workstation
    > without direct console access.


    Emacs and vim can also work in a GUI enviroment.

    > GVim leaves a lot aesthetically desired.


    Ditto for Emacs. It misses the bling bling. But are you really looking
    at all those shiny GUI elements when editing? I've turned off the icon
    bar in Emacs (pointless) and rarely use the menu if ever.

    --
    John Bokma j3b

    Blog: http://johnbokma.com/ Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/j.j.j.bokma
    Freelance Perl & Python Development: http://castleamber.com/
    John Bokma, Apr 17, 2011
    #17
  18. On Sat, 2011-04-16 at 23:12 +0000, Krzysztof Bieniasz wrote:
    > > It takes a day or two to learn emacs.
    > >
    > > It takes forever to set it up.

    >
    > Remember, Emacs is THE way. It's the light in the darkness, it'll save
    > your soul and bring you happiness. Isn't it worth the trouble? :)
    >
    > Seriously though, when I was setting my Emacs to work with Python I
    > stumbled upon this:
    > http://pedrokroger.net/2010/07/configuring-emacs-as-a-python-ide-2/
    > Read it and you'll know everything you need to know -- at least to start
    > with.
    >
    > KTB


    No, it's not. Vim is THE way.
    Westley Martínez, Apr 17, 2011
    #18
  19. Chris Angelico

    Tim Chase Guest

    On 04/17/2011 04:19 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
    >> No, it's not. Vim is THE way.

    >
    > Clearly there is only one standard text editor, and that's ‘ed’


    While it's funny, I'm curious how many folks on c.l.p have done
    any/much python coding in ed. I've had to do a bit on a router
    running an embedded Linux that had Python and ed, but no vi/vim.
    I'm also glad I don't have to maintain that router any more,
    but I feel I earned my "ed" merit badge at that job :)

    -tkc
    Tim Chase, Apr 17, 2011
    #19
  20. Chris Angelico

    harrismh777 Guest

    Jorgen Grahn wrote:
    > Based on the comments here, it seems that emacs would have to be the
    >> editor-in-chief for programmers. I currently use SciTE at work; is it
    >> reasonable to, effectively, bill my employer for the time it'll take
    >> me to learn emacs?


    Editor-in-chief is a bit strong... but many folks that process text
    files use nothing else... programming is just one venue where emacs shines.

    I learned vi early on at the IBM lab @Rochester back in the very early
    '90s on the RS6000; IBM's Unix version AIX. Back in the day the machines
    did not have graphics monitors; rather, they used Info Windows like the
    3151 (basically, dumb terminals with RS-232C connection on a short 25
    pin cable). So, I became proficient at vi and use it profusely even to
    this very day... the ESC key is worn out on my keyboard ! (but, I
    digressed, as usual)

    I didn't take the time to learn emacs when I first heard of it because
    it was presented to me as "just another gui editor" with strange meta
    key relationships (and besides, I was told, real men use vi).

    I didn't try emacs until I got to know RMS (by reading his books,
    listening to his speeches on-line, interacting on the FSF) and I wanted
    to know a little bit more about how he ticked... how better than to
    learn to use the editor he developed. It was then that I realized that
    this so-called "gui editor" was actually a Lisp environment capable of
    extension and expansion applicable to all sorts of activities from email
    to program development. I have been using emacs ever since and loving it
    too. Yes, I still use vi and always will.

    Having said all of that, I was able to learn emacs 2.3 from the built-in
    tutorial in about an hour (I'm a little slow). Emacs could take a person
    many years to fully master and appreciate, but the basics come pretty
    easily for a good hour's effort and a cup of coffee. Learning how to
    extend its capabilities with Lisp might take a while longer obviously.

    Bottom line for my two cents worth here, put emacs in your tool-kit...
    you'll be glad you did it.


    kind regards,
    m harris
    harrismh777, Apr 18, 2011
    #20
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