Re: Pythonic cross-platform GUI desingers à la Interface Builder (Re: what gui designer is everyone

Discussion in 'Python' started by Dietmar Schwertberger, Jun 12, 2012.

  1. Am 11.06.2012 01:15, schrieb Chris Angelico:
    > If you're a complete non-programmer, then of course that's an opaque
    > block of text. But to a programmer, it ought to be fairly readable -

    Well, I can read the code.
    But still I would not be able (or interested) to write C++/GTK code.
    With my rusty C++ knowledge and a simple GUI builder, I might be able
    to create the GUI, though.
    Whether I could then connect the events to actions is a different
    question and depends on the GUI builder. If it does not support this,
    then I would just not write the software.

    That's the starting point of this thread: for Python we could not
    identify such a GUI editor.


    > it says what it does. I'm confident that anyone who's built a GUI
    > should be able to figure out what that's going to create, even if
    > you've never used GTK before. (And yes, it's not Python. Sorry. I
    > don't have a Python example handy.)

    All the discussion about casual users being able to implement GUIs by
    manually coding it is somehow based on the assumption that suitable
    examples for any purpose are available.
    So to me the above example seems to be the proof that suitable examples
    are not available easily.


    > Modern UI toolkits are generally not that difficult to use. Add just a
    > few convenience functions (you'll see a call to a "button" function in
    > the above code - it creates a GTK2.Button, sets it up, and returns
    > it), and make a nice, well-commented configuration file that just
    > happens to be executed as Python, and you've made it pretty possible
    > for a non-programmer to knock together a GUI. They'll have learned to
    > write code without, perhaps, even realizing it.

    Right, they are not too difficult to use for full-time programmers
    or for people who want to invest a lot of time (as hobbyist).
    But there are many people who just need to get things done and who
    don't want to invest too many time on a simple GUI.

    No matter how cool it may seem to create simple GUIs manually or to
    write business letters using LaTeX: just try to persuade people to move
    from Word to LaTeX for business letters...


    Regards,

    Dietmar
    Dietmar Schwertberger, Jun 12, 2012
    #1
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  2. Re: Pythonic cross-platform GUI desingers à la

    > No matter how cool it may seem to create simple GUIs manually or to
    > write business letters using LaTeX: just try to persuade people to
    > move from Word to LaTeX for business letters...


    Good example.

    I have done nearly exactly this* - but it was only possible thanks to
    LyX.

    Sincerely,

    Wolfgang

    *I moved not from Wugh, but from other software to LyX/LaTeX for all my
    document processing.
    Wolfgang Keller, Jun 13, 2012
    #2
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  3. Re: Pythonic cross-platform GUI desingers à la Interface Builder (Re: what gui designer is everyone using)

    Am 13.06.2012 14:49, schrieb Wolfgang Keller:
    >> No matter how cool it may seem to create simple GUIs manually or to
    >> write business letters using LaTeX: just try to persuade people to
    >> move from Word to LaTeX for business letters...

    >
    > Good example.
    >
    > I have done nearly exactly this* - but it was only possible thanks to
    > LyX.


    > *I moved not from Wugh, but from other software to LyX/LaTeX for all my
    > document processing.

    But of course, you were only doing so because you had LyX available,
    which is the equivalent of an easy-to-use GUI builder.
    So maybe I should be more precise: just try to persuade people to move
    from Word to *pure* LaTeX for business letters...

    Regards,

    Dietmar
    Dietmar Schwertberger, Jun 14, 2012
    #3
  4. Re: Pythonic cross-platform GUI desingers à la

    > >> No matter how cool it may seem to create simple GUIs manually or to
    > >> write business letters using LaTeX: just try to persuade people to
    > >> move from Word to LaTeX for business letters...

    > >
    > > Good example.
    > >
    > > I have done nearly exactly this* - but it was only possible thanks
    > > to LyX.

    >
    > > *I moved not from Wugh, but from other software to LyX/LaTeX for
    > > all my document processing.

    > But of course, you were only doing so because you had LyX available,
    > which is the equivalent of an easy-to-use GUI builder.


    No need to argue here. This was exactly my point. :)

    > So maybe I should be more precise: just try to persuade people to move
    > from Word to *pure* LaTeX for business letters...


    Nearly impossible. And this was exactly my point. Again, no need to
    argue here. :)

    The success of LyX (and TeXmacs and BaKoMaTeX and Scientific Word...)
    proves imho that the LaTeX community had missed to offer a
    "syntax-hiding"-GUI with LaTeX some 20 years ago.

    And the lack of success of Python so far to replace, in your
    application case, Labview, or, in my application case, all those
    proprietary 4GL IDEs/frameworks/GUI builders (just check the success
    that Realbasic has) proves imho that the Python community has totally
    missed to address the vast crowd of potential users who are domain
    experts in other domains than software development.

    Sincerely,

    Wolfgang
    Wolfgang Keller, Jun 19, 2012
    #4
  5. Dietmar Schwertberger

    Brian Guest

    Re: Pythonic cross-platform GUI desingers à la Interface Builder (Re: what gui designer is everyone using)

    On 6/19/2012 6:07 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
    > And the lack of success of Python so far to replace, in your
    > application case, Labview, or, in my application case, all those
    > proprietary 4GL IDEs/frameworks/GUI builders (just check the success
    > that Realbasic has) proves imho that the Python community has totally
    > missed to address the vast crowd of potential users who are domain
    > experts in other domains than software development.
    >
    > Sincerely,
    >
    > Wolfgang


    I have been compelled to occasionally use LV by my current
    employer. I do not know if LabView is the disease or is a
    symptom. It is an evil parasite and has resulted in a disaster
    at my place of employment and another that I am aware.

    As for 'designers' and 'builders', the discussion threads on
    Python gui builders is legion. In the end, the consensus is
    always to learn one and write the gui. Regardless of the
    multitude of clever gui libraries, event code in this language
    seems a bit contrived, and is attractive only to professional
    programmers. But the community must know that the language is
    used by hundreds of thousands of scientists and engineers that
    have a job to do, and do not have the time and have no interest
    in learning the frameworks du jour.

    This is why I see test and manufacturing engineers refuse to
    give up VB6 where Windows is required. I disagree with those
    that say Python can be used as a VB6 replacement. And the touted
    'interactive' feature of Python does nothing for gui coding.

    It would not be difficult to convince me to commit homicide for
    a Delphi-like Python gui machine that runs on a Linux box. I
    have played with many - Boa, WxDes, Glade, Tk, Dabo, QtDesigner,
    Card, etc.

    Am currently experimenting with IronPython, because the factory
    boss says no more Linux boxes on his production lines. And the
    person that said Python is best tool for data acq/hw control
    needs to get out more. Very dangerous. C first, Python second.
    This is why I insist on only C and Python for the engineering
    lab, and use one of three proven pre-coded Tk-based GUIs for
    production and ATE drivers.

    You want to argue with me? First come visit my employer's TJ
    factory and watch the boys test 600kVA transformers or 250kVA
    inverters. 150,000 A of fault current.

    Brian
    Brian, Jun 24, 2012
    #5
  6. Dietmar Schwertberger

    CM Guest


    > It would not be difficult to convince me to commit homicide for
    > a Delphi-like Python gui machine that runs on a Linux box. I
    > have played with many - Boa, WxDes, Glade, Tk, Dabo, QtDesigner,
    > Card, etc.


    Not sure whether you tried it enough on Linux, but Boa (which was
    intended to be kind of Delphi for Python) *almost* runs OK on Linux.
    There are a few workarounds to some of the problems and I have a list
    of the remaining issues. But yes, it's not ideal to use on Linux yet
    (I have done sort of OK with developing with it on Windows and then
    using it on Linux to tidy up cross platform incompatibilities in
    wxPython apps between Win and Linux).
    CM, Jun 25, 2012
    #6
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