Re: round two: XML vs DBMS

Discussion in 'XML' started by arachno, Jul 23, 2003.

  1. arachno

    arachno Guest

    Why everyone so limited down to SQL only. Guys, what about native XML
    database servers. Today no more reason to stuck with SQL DBs...


    "Berislav Lopac" <> wrote in message
    news:bfk7m9$tk6$...
    > Imagine, for example, that you run a bank, and the bank's Web site

    displays
    > the bank's exchange rates for various currencies. No sweat here -- to do
    > that, you probably need a very simple SQL which will extract the current
    > list from the banks DB and a simple program which formats the data as a
    > pretty HTML table. Now, a financial Web portal approaches you asking you

    to
    > allow them to display your exchange rates. You whole-heartedly agree --

    but
    > your HTML is completely unsuitable for their design, and you can't ask

    them
    > to simply include the page you produce.
    >
     
    arachno, Jul 23, 2003
    #1
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  2. arachno

    Mirch Masala Guest

    "arachno" <> wrote in message
    news:bfl5u5$g3acc$-berlin.de...
    > Why everyone so limited down to SQL only. Guys, what about native XML
    > database servers. Today no more reason to stuck with SQL DBs...


    Hmm... having been through the arguments about Object Databases and
    SQL/Relational, I see much the same with Native XML and SQL/Relational all
    over again ...

    --
    Akmal B. Chaudhri
    Editor, Special Projects (Eclipse, Web Services)
    IBM developerWorks < http://www.ibm.com/developerWorks/ >
    XML Data Management, AW, 2003 <
    http://www.awprofessional.com/titles/0201844524/ >
    XML Database Symposium, VLDB 2003 < http://www.lirmm.fr/~bella/XSym/ >
     
    Mirch Masala, Jul 23, 2003
    #2
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  3. Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw when "arachno" <> would write:
    > Why everyone so limited down to SQL only. Guys, what about native
    > XML database servers. Today no more reason to stuck with SQL DBs...


    "XML" is a format used for _serializing documents_, not for providing
    _random access_ to data.

    The database systems that are specifically XML-oriented don't use
    "native XML;" they use some private storage scheme that does NOT
    involve XML.

    For instance, the SleepyCat XML system doesn't store data as "native
    XML," but rather stores XML documents in (generally) a Sleepycat DB
    B-tree.
    --
    output = ("cbbrowne" "@" "ntlug.org")
    http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/xml.html
    Would-be National Mottos:
    Switzerland: "You wouldn't hit a country that's neutral, would you?"
     
    Christopher Browne, Jul 24, 2003
    #3
  4. arachno

    Dan Bolser Guest

    Can you expand?

    Is there an XML-SQL?
    How are the databases indexed?
    How do I put my flat files into
    such a DB?

    Cheers,

    On Wed, 23 Jul 2003, arachno wrote:

    > Why everyone so limited down to SQL only. Guys, what about native XML
    > database servers. Today no more reason to stuck with SQL DBs...
    >
    >
    > "Berislav Lopac" <> wrote in message
    > news:bfk7m9$tk6$...
    > > Imagine, for example, that you run a bank, and the bank's Web site

    > displays
    > > the bank's exchange rates for various currencies. No sweat here -- to do
    > > that, you probably need a very simple SQL which will extract the current
    > > list from the banks DB and a simple program which formats the data as a
    > > pretty HTML table. Now, a financial Web portal approaches you asking you

    > to
    > > allow them to display your exchange rates. You whole-heartedly agree --

    > but
    > > your HTML is completely unsuitable for their design, and you can't ask

    > them
    > > to simply include the page you produce.
    > >

    >
    >
    >
     
    Dan Bolser, Aug 5, 2003
    #4
  5. arachno

    Rob Tweed Guest

    Native XML databases are usually not based on the relational database
    model - the old hierarchical databases tend to come in to their own
    for the native storage of XML.

    One of the ideal ways to store XML in a database is in its XML DOM
    form, and use the DOM APIs as the means of manipulating the documents.

    Our product, eXtc (www.mgateway.com), is an example of a persistent
    DOM model. Interestingly, although we make use of the Cache'
    database's underlying hierarchical data structures, we can make use of
    Cache's object and relational technology, so you can use their SQL to
    query across documents. You can also use eXtc to provide a Native XML
    Database (NXD) environment, yet also use Cache's as an object and/or
    relational database in parallel for other data. This hybrid
    NXD/conventional DBMS environment is pretty unusual.

    DOMs are indexed internally within the data structures we use to store
    the DOM information.

    Getting an XML flat file in is the process of parsing, which results
    in a fully parsed persistent DOM. The XML file needs to be properly
    structured and optionally conform to a DTD or schema, otherwise it's
    rejected during parsing. Alternatively you can build DOMs
    programmatically from scratch from within the Cache environment, using
    the DOM API methods.

    The nice thing about the DOM is that it provides a single object model
    and a single set of APIs that allow you to store and manipulate any
    XML document of any sort. We're getting a lot of interest now in the
    role of our product as the basis of a pure XML-based digital asset
    management platform.

    So the notion of XML as simply a data transfer description language
    is, IMHO, somewhat limited (though this is, of course, one of its
    primary roles). The fact that many file and document types, and
    business data sets are being defined in XML brings interesting new
    opportunities when you can store and manage XML DOMs in a persistent
    fashion.

    Rob

    On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:12:34 +0100, Dan Bolser
    <-dunn.cam.ac.uk> wrote:

    >
    >Can you expand?
    >
    >Is there an XML-SQL?
    >How are the databases indexed?
    >How do I put my flat files into
    >such a DB?
    >
    >Cheers,
    >
    >On Wed, 23 Jul 2003, arachno wrote:
    >
    >> Why everyone so limited down to SQL only. Guys, what about native XML
    >> database servers. Today no more reason to stuck with SQL DBs...
    >>
    >>
    >> "Berislav Lopac" <> wrote in message
    >> news:bfk7m9$tk6$...
    >> > Imagine, for example, that you run a bank, and the bank's Web site

    >> displays
    >> > the bank's exchange rates for various currencies. No sweat here -- to do
    >> > that, you probably need a very simple SQL which will extract the current
    >> > list from the banks DB and a simple program which formats the data as a
    >> > pretty HTML table. Now, a financial Web portal approaches you asking you

    >> to
    >> > allow them to display your exchange rates. You whole-heartedly agree --

    >> but
    >> > your HTML is completely unsuitable for their design, and you can't ask

    >> them
    >> > to simply include the page you produce.
    >> >

    >>
    >>
    >>


    ---
    Rob Tweed
    M/Gateway Developments Ltd

    Global DOMination with eXtc : http://www.mgateway.tzo.com
    ---
     
    Rob Tweed, Aug 6, 2003
    #5
  6. arachno

    Mirch Masala Guest

    "Dan Bolser" <-dunn.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
    news:p-dunn.cam.ac.uk...
    >
    > Can you expand?
    >
    > Is there an XML-SQL?
    > How are the databases indexed?
    > How do I put my flat files into
    > such a DB?
    >
    > Cheers,
    >


    Have a dig around Bourret's site:

    http://www.rpbourret.com/xml/

    See the book I helped edit:

    http://www.awprofessional.com/titles/0201844524/

    Which covers:

    o Tamino's XML storage, indexing, querying, and data access features
    o The features and APIs of open source eXist
    o Berkeley DB XML's ability to store XML documents natively
    o IBM's DB2 Universal Database and its support for XML applications
    o Xperanto's method of addressing information integration requirements
    o Oracle's XMLType for managing document centric XML documents
    o Microsoft SQL Server 2000's support for exporting and importing XML data
    o A generic architecture for storing XML documents in a relational database
    o X007, XMach-1, XMark, and other benchmarks for evaluating XML database
    performance

    There are also some good workshop proceedings that cover research, e.g.

    Z. Bellahsene, A.B. Chaudhri, E. Rahm, M. Rys and R. Unland (eds.) (2003)
    XML database symposium. Lecture Notes in Computer Science, 2824 (Berlin:
    Springer-Verlag) To appear.
    http://www.lirmm.fr/~bella/XSym/

    A.B. Chaudhri, M. Jeckle, E. Rahm and R. Unland (eds.) (2003) Web, web
    services and database systems. Lecture Notes in Computer Science, 2593
    (Berlin: Springer-Verlag)
    http://link.springer.de/link/service/series/0558/tocs/t2593.htm

    S. Bressan, A.B. Chaudhri, M.L. Lee, J.X. Yu and Z. Lacroix (eds.) (2003)
    Efficiency and effectiveness of XML tools and techniques and data
    integration over the web. Lecture Notes in Computer Science, 2590 (Berlin:
    Springer-Verlag)
    http://link.springer.de/link/service/series/0558/tocs/t2590.htm

    A.B. Chaudhri, R. Unland, C. Djeraba and W. Lindner (eds.) (2002) XML-based
    data management and multimedia engineering - EDBT 2002 workshops. Lecture
    Notes in Computer Science, 2490 (Berlin: Springer-Verlag)

    I notice that your email address is Cambridge University. You should have no
    problems getting the LNCS through your library.

    HTH

    akmal chaudhri
     
    Mirch Masala, Aug 6, 2003
    #6
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