Re: Seeking computer-programming job (Sunnyvale, CA)

G

gw7rib

                            ROBERT MAAS
                        Sunnyvale, CA 94086

I don't think that comp.programming is really a suitable place for a
CV. I suspect that the two *.lang.* groups aren't, either.
PUBLISHED WRITINGS:
(1995) Computer-based advanced placement calculus for gifted students.
  Instructional Science, 22, 339-362 (written by my supervisor about our work)
(1985) Natural-language interface for an instructable robot.
  International Journal of Man-Machine Studies, 22, 215-240 (written by me)
(1984) A note on discourse with an instructable robot.
  Theoretical Linguistics, 11, 5-20 (written by my supervisor about my work)
(1978) Magnetic relaxation analysis of dynamic processes in
  macromolecules in the pico- to microsecond range.
  Biophysical Journal, Vol 24, 103-117 (jointly written by supervisor and me)
(1970) Abstract on differential algebra published in Notices of the AMS (by me)

It seems a bit odd to include in your "published writings" two papers
written solely by someone else.
SKILLS/BUZZWORDS/PHRASES (in alphabetical order):
... blockade puzzles for 3-yr-olds or
dan quayle ...

I'd advise re-writing this bit. There seem at least four problems with
it:
1) Putting jokes in your CV looks unprofessional;
2) It makes you look cynical, which is possibly not a good idea when
you are trying to get a job;
3) You may well annoy someone of a different political viewpoint;
4) it looks a bit dated now.

Neverthless, I hope you do find employment soon.

Best of luck.
Paul.
 
R

Robert Maas

From: (e-mail address removed)
I don't think that comp.programming is really a suitable place
for a CV.

It's not a CV, it's a resume, a 1-2 page summary (plus keywords to
trigger search engines that recruiters use). A CV is much more
complete, perhaps five or ten pages of detail (not counting the
keywords).
I suspect that the two *.lang.* groups aren't, either.

I've been posting to ba.jobs.resumes and/or misc.jobs.resumes since
1991, but haven't gotten any job since 2.5 weeks in 1992, and
haven't even gotten an interview since 1994. I've tried posting to
Web-based job boards more recently, but not a single
employer/recruiter ever contacted me as a result to tell me about
any job even close to what I can do. All I've gotten in response to
my Web-based resume postings is spam spam and more spam, mostly
from CareerBuilder and Monster. If you can think of any reasonable
place to post my resume where I'll get legitimate queries for more
information about my skills for jobs or which my resume shows I
mostly qualify, please tell me where.

Meanwhile I'm really really desperate, and since most of my
experience is in Lisp I feel that comp.lang.lisp is a reasonable
place to post my resume, and since java is the only currently
popular language where I'm competant I feel that
comp.lang.java.programmer is a reasonable place to post, and since
I have experience in ten or twenty different languages depending on
how you count them (assembly language on six different CPUs counts
as 1 or 6? 3 different dialects of FORTRAN counts as 1 or 3? 6
different dialects of Lisp counts as 1 or 6?), plus my Hello-CGI
project to document how to get started programming in several
additional languages or Web server-side applications, I feel my
wide variation of programming languages and ability to learn more
qualifies me to post my resume in comp.programming to catch anybody
who wants to hire me for some odd job in a new language nobody yet
knows but which I can learn quickly.
It seems a bit odd to include in your "published writings" two
papers written solely by someone else.

They were written specifically about my work and/or projects that
include my work as a major part.

During my work on nuclear magnetic resonace relaxation, I tried a
new idea for classifying molecular side-chains as to whether they
wobbled or freely rotated, which turned out to be successful, and
that result of mine was a key point in enabling the publishing of
the results of the research project. My name was listed as one of
the authors of the paper, whose head author was the leader of the
research team. It's difficult to squeeze all that explanation into
a **resume**, better the employer who is interested in NMR research
contact me for more info.

During my work on CAI for calculus, my idea for the derivational
engine was the number one key new idea in making the five-year
project feasible. Without my idea, and subsequent implementation by
me, the CAI systen would have been worthless because didn't go
beyond what old systems for CAI already did. Again, the leader of
the project wrote up a description of our system to publish. It
wouldn't have been reasonable for each individual programmer to
publish his/her own contribution independently.

By the way, I'm starting a new job-ad-filtering "cooperative",
whereby job-seekers mark up help-wanted ads to identify the
specific required skills/experience in each, and then submit these
tagged ads to a database. The database is then automatically
searched for each job-seeker to eliminate jobs for which that
person is definitely *not* qualified (for example if it requires 3
years experience using JBoss and WebSphere but that particular
job-seeker has not even *seen* either of those application
frameworks, much less gotten years of experience using both), and
then show the job-seeker just the remaining jobs. This way
job-seekers wouldn't have to scan thousands of jobs, *each* of
which requires such a skill the job-seeker doesn't have, becoming
too exhausted to continue, and being forced to quit looking before
finding even one job ad for which the person might qualify. If
anybody reading this thread is interested in joining my FilJob
(short for filter-job) "cooperative", use this URL:
<http://tinyurl.com/filjob>
 
K

Kaz Kylheku

I suspect he's looking for income.

But income without a regular job generally requires better people skills than
job income. Or at least the equivalent job income.
 
G

Guest

|> Arne Vajh?j wrote:
|>> Jon Harrop wrote:
|>>> If you diversify into OCaml or F#, I'll gladly help you advertise your
|>>> products.
|>>
|>> Products ????
|>>
|>> He is looking for a job !
|>
|> I suspect he's looking for income.
|
| But income without a regular job generally requires better people skills than
| job income. Or at least the equivalent job income.

Or skills in the art of the con, or knowing how to not get caught after a
bank heist.
 
R

Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t

From: George Peter Staplin said:
There is such an online auction site, or at least was. It was
overrun by people that didn't know what they were doing, and the
quality was often questionable from what I've heard of the work.
Perhaps things have changed by now.

Can you please try to find it and show me where to find it?
People skills do say a lot about a person, or lack thereof.

But such skills as needed to hussle a job under the current system
are irrelevant to many kinds of work, such as computer programming.
It really sucks that good skilled people with lots of other skills
are neglected for employment because they don't have that one
specific skill job-hustling and none of the employment agencies are
willing to do their supposed job.
A bigger problem is often that some companies are wasting the time of US
programmers with H-1B visa scams, with phoney ads, so that they can use
foreign workers.
See the video here about "Fake job ads":
http://www.youtube.com/programmersguild

I have no way to see that video here but I've made a note just now
to try to see it next time I'm at a semi-public computer lab where
watching InterNet videos is possible.
... My understanding that many of the jobs with rare qualifications
are about this type of scam. It's pretty wide spread from what
I've been able to tell. You don't have to search long to find one
of those jobs through the want ads, or sites like Monster, Dice,
etc.

A few days ago, on recommendation from someody who claimed DICE was
good, I tried a job search through DICE. I found only a very few
jobs at all in my category and nearby, with only one that I
qualified for per the requirements section, which said *nothing*
except that I needed 4 years experience software programming,
nothing specific at all, although the job duties section was full
of stuff I had not the slightest idea how to do them, but just to
harass them for posting such a stupid ad I applied anyway. I also
applied at a company that is two blocks from where I live despite
the fact it requires a security clearance plus lots of experience
with military specs etc., only because they are so very very
conveniently located that I've been wanting to get my resume to
them just in case they have some job not requiring security
clearance, and this was my first chance, a shot in the dark.

As for jobs I really qualify for, I haven't seen one in more than a
dozen years.

Likewise noted for later attempt to watch.
Note: I have nothing necessarily against some poor foreigner
taking a job from a company.

I neither, but when I'm willing to work at the legal minimum wage
but the company says i'm too expensive so they'll hire the
foreigner instead to save money, it totally pisses me off, either
that they are breaking the law, or they are simply not listening to
me that I'm really highly skilled but after 17+ years unemployment
I'm desperate to find a job even if I have to work at minimum wage
to "get my foot (back) in the door".

-- Maas Wireless Web Services: http://tinyurl.com/6l6ke3
 
T

thomas.mertes

Perhaps under the current economic system.

-- Begin off topic --
Don't expect some unrealisic change of the economic system. The
evolution will not allow that kapitalism (For europeans: free market
economy) to be replaced by something weaker. Survival of the fittest
will not allow a weaker replacement (at least not permanently,
see Russia).
-- End off topic --
On the other hand what
if there were an online auction site for bidding on short-term
contracts, where all you need to do is
(1) make the lowest bid on the contract
(2) complete the contract before the deadline
and you get paid automatically? No need to talk your way into the
contract. Just bid-then-perform. That's it. No people skills
needed?

Forget it, the world will not change just because some people have
no people skills. It might sound harsh, but you have to change. The
world will not change just to fit to you. Take my advice: Try to
adopt to the needs (people skills and other things) and try to be
successful in the current world/economic system. Even it many things
in our world are wrong by far. With reasonable success in the
current system you are capable to do some changes (make the world
a better place). This is at least my aproach. In companies I write
C++ programs under Windows. This enables my to help changing the
world into a place were people write Seed7 programs under Linux. :)

Greetings Thomas Mertes

Seed7 Homepage: http://seed7.sourceforge.net
Seed7 - The extensible programming language: User defined statements
and operators, abstract data types, templates without special
syntax, OO with interfaces and multiple dispatch, statically typed,
interpreted or compiled, portable, runs under linux/unix/windows.
 
1

1Z

Robert Maas,http://tinyurl.com/uh3twrote:

...> As for jobs I really qualify for, I haven't seen one in more than a

...

If I wanted a job, and was not qualified for any recently advertised
jobs, I would do the following:

1. Pick a skill set that is needed both for advertised jobs, and for at
least one major, well-known, active open source project.

No, no, no! Stick to LiSP, it is The Best Language.
 
T

thomas.mertes

Robert Maas,http://tinyurl.com/uh3twrote:

...> As for jobs I really qualify for, I haven't seen one in more than a

...

If I wanted a job, and was not qualified for any recently advertised
jobs, I would do the following:

1. Pick a skill set that is needed both for advertised jobs, and for at
least one major, well-known, active open source project.

What about the Seed7 project?
There are some open issues:
- Seed7 needs a database interface.
Not a simple one which is just moving SQL strings to the DB.
Something which integrates with the language such that syntax
checks can check for correct SQL syntax and static type checking
can help to find some errors. I think a database interface could
be inspired by some ideas from LINQ/C#.
- Seed7 needs a foreign function interface (to C and maybe to other
languages) which allows easy definition of interfaces and deals
with conversions between char * and the Seed7 string type. Other
type conversions may be necessary as well. The foreign function
interface should also protect against buffer overflows (as much
as possible).
- The Seed7 to C compiler (comp.sd7) needs better support for local
functions which use local variables from outer functions.
Currently comp.sd7 supports this feature in many cases, but when
compiling the P4 Pascal compiler (rewritten in Seed7, currently
not released) comp.sd7 will fail. Since C does not support local
functions the current implementation makes all functions global
and adds additional parameters to emulate the use of local
variables over several levels. It is necessary to check out if
this concept covers all possibilitys and to improve the current
solution or to write a new one instead.
- Support for 64 bit integers is needed and a concept how to work
with integers of different sizes. An interesting part of the
challenge is a hopefully portable solution for C to recognice
integer overflow. This would be needed for the Seed7 to C
compiler.
- I am trying to introduce lambda expression, functions as
parameters as well as variable functions to Seed7 while retaining
static type checks and overloading. See the thread:
"Overloading, lambda expression and functions as parameters."
in "comp.programming". I am in the middle of discussing issues.
A functional programming expert could help to get the design
right.
2. Get studying. Study the chosen skill set, and also the open source
project.

3. As soon as possible, start contributing to the project. In the early
stages, use general programming skills to analyze bugs. As I built
knowledge of the project and the skills, I would expect to be able to
propose implementations of requested enhancements.

The objective would be to simultaneously build three things: in-demand
skills, a body of code to which I had made significant contributions
using those skills, and set of programmers with whom I had good
cooperative relationships.

4. Apply for jobs that need the skill set, pointing to the open source
contributions as evidence of recent experience, and asking other
participants to act as references.

To Robert Maas:
Patricia suggests that you improve towards the skills searched in
job describtions. This is formulated in a much more friendly way
than I did: "You have to change, the world will not change for you".
She (I hope this is correct) suggests even a way to do this change.
Take her advice, it is a good one.

Greetings Thomas Mertes

Seed7 Homepage: http://seed7.sourceforge.net
Seed7 - The extensible programming language: User defined statements
and operators, abstract data types, templates without special
syntax, OO with interfaces and multiple dispatch, statically typed,
interpreted or compiled, portable, runs under linux/unix/windows.
 
T

thomas.mertes

It's not the best language to get hired as a code monkey.

But it is the best language to stay unemployed.
A big project using a typical programming language often
becomes a nightmare mess, and ...

In your parallel universe non Lisp programs automatically
become a nightmare mess?
some of the key programmers quit because they find better jobs.

Probably as Lisp programmers with very attractive salary. :)
That's why the project needs to hire more programmers.

The size of a project has no influence of the team size?
In Common Lisp, the person who wrote the program is more likely to stay to
keep improving it.

Or to debug and test endlessly because code coverage
tests with 100% code coverage are necessary after each
change. Dynamic typing has advantages ...
There is usually no need to hire any other programmers
than that one.

In which reality do companys only hire one programmer
independend of the size of the task?
So you're less likely to find jobs advertised for Common
Lisp programmers, simply because they aren't needed.

Well, this is your explanation why the chances to get a job
as Lisp programmer are small. Other people will have other
explanations. At the end the explanation is irrelevant. If you
want to get a job you must have skills that are searched for.

Greetings Thomas Mertes

Seed7 Homepage: http://seed7.sourceforge.net
Seed7 - The extensible programming language: User defined statements
and operators, abstract data types, templates without special
syntax, OO with interfaces and multiple dispatch, statically typed,
interpreted or compiled, portable, runs under linux/unix/windows.
 
L

Lew

From: George Peter Staplin
Can you please try to find it and show me where to find it?
GIYF.

But such skills as needed to hussle [sic] a job under the current system
are irrelevant to many kinds of work, such as computer programming.
It really sucks that good skilled people with lots of other skills
are neglected for employment because they don't have that one
specific skill job-hustling and none of the employment agencies are
willing to do their supposed job.

Wow. I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here, but I read it as a
complaint that you have to hustle in order to find work. I got news for you -
lots of people have good computer skills; it's the hustle that distinguishes
them and makes them better than other candidates. If I were a hiring manager
hearing your pitch, which sounds awfully petulant, I'd look for another candidate.
A few days ago, on recommendation from someody who claimed DICE was
good, I tried a job search through DICE. I found only a very few
jobs at all in my category and nearby, with only one that I
qualified for per the requirements section, which said *nothing*
except that I needed 4 years experience software programming,

Do you have such experience?
nothing specific at all, although the job duties section was full
of stuff I had not the slightest idea how to do them, but just to

If you don't have the slightest idea how to do them, there's a high likelihood
you are not qualified for that particular position. And saying that it had a
"job duties section ... full of stuff" is the exact opposite of that it "said
*nothing*".
harass them for posting such a stupid ad I applied anyway. I also

That you confess readily that you wanted to harass them, and condemn their ad
as "stupid" is evidence that you have what any hiring manager would consider a
bad attitude and make them very unwilling to hire you.
applied at a company that is two blocks from where I live despite
the fact it requires a security clearance plus lots of experience
with military specs etc., only because they are so very very
conveniently located that I've been wanting to get my resume to
them just in case they have some job not requiring security
clearance, and this was my first chance, a shot in the dark.

You get a job by demonstrating that you have what they want, not by hoping
that they have what you want.
As for jobs I really qualify for, I haven't seen one in more than a
dozen years.

"Would you like fries with that?"
I neither, but when I'm willing to work at the legal minimum wage
but the company says i'm [sic] too expensive so they'll hire the
foreigner instead to save money, it totally pisses me off, either
that they are breaking the law, or they are simply not listening to
me that I'm really highly skilled but after 17+ years unemployment
I'm desperate to find a job even if I have to work at minimum wage
to "get my foot (back) in the door".

Anyone who's been unemployed for 17 or more years has a perception problem
they will need to overcome, as most hiring managers will be very, very
skeptical of someone with such a gap. They will want to know why a person has
been unemployed - have they been ill, a homemaker, independently wealthy?
That kind of thing. They'll want to see what a person has done recently to
make themselves more attractive to prospective employers - have they gone to
school, done research, taken an internship, worked in a volunteer capacity?

Someone without appropriate answers to these kinds of questions, who complains
bitterly, even if accurately, about why it's other people's fault, who readily
admits to "harassing" prospective employers, who simply states that they're
"really highly skilled" but has no verifiable skills relevant to the employer,
who asserts that they're "desperate to find a job" but also says that they're
unwilling to hustle - that person will almost certainly not get hired. There
are too many people with verifiable skills, a solid work history, and a
demonstrably positive attitude with hustle who are competing for those positions.

Time for some tough love, Robert. Project a positive attitude, even if you
have to fake it. Take courses; get certified. Develop the skill set you see
advertised in the help wanted. Don't ever let them hear you complain about
"foreigners" or whining about the circumstances. Develop hustle.


I know that I repeated some things that Patricia Shanahan said. You should
listen to her. And get a better attitude.
 
T

Tim X

(e-mail address removed) (Robert Maas, http://tinyurl.com/uh3t)
writes:
But such skills as needed to hussle a job under the current system
are irrelevant to many kinds of work, such as computer programming.
It really sucks that good skilled people with lots of other skills
are neglected for employment because they don't have that one
specific skill job-hustling and none of the employment agencies are
willing to do their supposed job.

A lot depends on what you define as job-huslling, but good peple skills
and communication skills are still important even for programmers. While
much of the work you do as a programmer involves sitting at a terminal
cutting code, this is only part of the job.

The days of a programmer being given a task and then they just go off to
wherever they do their work, code like mad and then deliver the finished
solution are gone (actually, I'm not even sure they ever really
existed). These days, programmers need to have good communications and
people skills to extract the true requirements of the software from the
client and to work well with others on the team. In fact, to some extent
this has become an even more difficult task as the general level of
computer literacy has increased. Now, more often than not, in addition
to system requirements, you also get clients telling you how to program
the solution. often the requirements are difficult to identify because
they have presented you with what they think is the solution rather than
describing what they want. You need good peple skills so that you can
extract the real requirements from what the client gives you - you can't
just accept what they tell you, implement exactly that and then expect
they will be satisfied with the result. You need to make them feel
comfortable enough that you can discuss the problem they want to solve,
feel free to ask questions and be able to extract what you need without
making them feel uncomfortable, threatened or concerned that perhaps
your not terribly sane or don't understand the problem. It is only
through good inter-personal skills that you can extract the information
you need to gain sufficient understandinig of the problem to come up
with a good solution. (there are some exceptions of course - writing
your own software to solve a problem you already know and understand and
then hoping to sell the solution to other for example).

Good communications skills are also required because fewer and fewer
programming jobs represent just a single developer working in
isolation. More often than not, there will be a team - possibly a small
team of only a couple of people or maybe a large team of 30 or more. To
actively participate in the team, you need to be able to communicate
with them and you need the people skills necessary to fit into the
team.

having been responsible for employiing staff, both for small companies
and larger beurocracies, two things jump to my mind when I see an
application from someone who hasn't worked for a long time (BTW, 17
years of unemployment is an excessively long time - not sure I've ever
heard of anyone not having any employment for 17 years who wasn't in
prison or in a coma!). The first thing I'd want to know is why they
haven't had a job for 17 years. If there answer involved a lot of what
sounded like excuses or blaming the system or something akin to a victim
attitude, I'd probably write them off. Anyone who hasn't been able to
adapt to changing circumstances and an evolving world and stil comes up
with nothing but excuses or considers themselves a victim of situation
and takes no responsibility for their part in their situation is
unlikely to have the problem solving and outcomes oriented focus I would
be looking for in an employee.

The second thing I'd possibly want to know is what they had been doing
over that 17 years and what they had done to try and get a job (assuming
they wanted one over that whole period). The problem I would have with
employiing anyone who had been unemployed for 17 years is with the fact
that if they couldn't solve their unemployment problem for that length
of time, can I have any confidence they will be able to solve any of the
problems they are likely to run into while working for me. At the end of
the day, you have to weigh this person up with all the other applicants
you have that have recent employment, possibly recent track records of
work completed, recent education or even just youthful
enthusiasm. sometimes, peple will have very good reasons for not having
worked for 17 tears (such as prison or a coma). For this type of
situation, I think your better off being honest and stating why you have
been unable to work for so long. Yes, it may cost you a job, but it may
also get you one. Not everyone will automatically right someone off
because they have a criminal record or a history of mental illness or
whatever. Yes, there are small minded bigoted people who will just write
you off, but they would have written you off already just because you
haven't worked for 17 years. There are some out there who are honestly
prepared to give people a second chance. There are also a growing number
of people out there who have either suffered some significant physical
or mental illness who can have a better understanding and greater
acceptance of such things. Whatever the case, I suspect you are more
likely to find someone who is willing to give you a chance once they
understand why you haven't worked for a long time and that there is a
good reason for it. Complaining that you couldn't get a job because of
low paid overseas competition, lack of money to access and stay current
with modern technology or because the current hiring practices are too
myopic to see your potential are not valid reasons, only excuses.

Is any of this fair - no, probably not. However, it never has been and
never will be a fair world. Good people get screwed over all the time
and bastards are often very successful. What is important to
realise is that the individual plays a significant role in determining
what their situation is. Very few are simply passive victims. It is how
you handle the situation you find yourself in that matters more than the
causes of what put you there.

While it is positive to see someone wanting to get something happening
by starting their own projects and lookinig for others to help, I do
have to wonder why not just join an existing project. Establishing a new
project, particularly one with multiple contributors, is a difficult and
time consuming process. It is also one that usually requires someone
with strong peple skills and a certain level of charisma and ability to
inspire others to be a success. You will be able to get far more mileage
out of working and contributing to an existing recognised project in a
much shorter time than you will with starting your own project. In
particular, a reasonably well know project with a good profile can be
worth a lot. In addition to being able to point to something you have
done which can easily be verified, you are also likely to make
connections with people who would be willing to provide references or
act as referees for jobs you apply for.

For the record, I do believe the way job interviews are handled and the
way applications are processed is fundamentally flawed. My personal
preference for assessing someone for a job is to give them a simple task
that will take about a week to complete and assess how they deal with it
and what they come up with. This lets me see how well they fit in with
the rest of the staff, how well they handle obstacles and whether they
actually can deliver the goods. It may cost a weeks wages to find this
out, but generally, it works a hell of a lot better than making largely
arbitrary assessments based on an interview where all you can tell is
whether the person is a good interviewer or not. Unfortunately, too many
employers are worried about doing tis in case they get problems with
litigators, unions or government beurocracy concerning hiring and
firing - though this varies a lot from country to country.

Tim
 
T

thomas.mertes

(e-mail address removed) wrote in

Even better than Seed7?

Yes, in this regard I consider Lisp as the best language ever.
At least I have never heard of a person being unemployed
for more than a dozen years because of Seed7 or any other
programming language skills.

Greetings Thomas Mertes

Seed7 Homepage: http://seed7.sourceforge.net
Seed7 - The extensible programming language: User defined statements
and operators, abstract data types, templates without special
syntax, OO with interfaces and multiple dispatch, statically typed,
interpreted or compiled, portable, runs under linux/unix/windows.
 
T

thomas.mertes

...

Here are a some questions I would ask. They are nothing to do with
the inherent merit or long term usefulness of the project, just its
potential as a stepping stone to a job:

I think it was clear that Seed7 is not the optimal project to get a
job.
1. How many people are currently actively contributing to the project?

I have recieved contributions of approximately a dozen persons.
The contributions are currently not at a regular basis.
Believe it or not: I expect that this and other things will change.
Current popular programming languages took 10 or more years to get
popular. I announced Seed7 in october 2005 so there is still much
time.
A large team has several advantages. Being part of a team would help
with demonstrating ability to work in a team.

This is a good argument for taking a big project. But without
personal skills it might be hard to be recogniced by senior team
members.
A large team also presents
better networking opportunities, increasing the probability that someone
on the team knows someone who knows someone who knows about a suitable job.

On the other hand: Entering a big project with a large team will not
allow you to easy get a status where each staff manager knows your
name. Mr. Torvalds, Cox, Molnar, ... I have already heard about you.
Just the most prominent team members are known to outsiders (you can
be sure that staff managers are outsiders). E.g.: You probably have
more knowledge than a typical staff manager, but did you know that I
contributed to the Wine project?

Unless you are so prominent that the manager already knows your name
it can IMHO backfire if you put too much emphasis on an open source
participation. Many managers have doubts about open source and/or
are fans of a monopolists proprietory software. The FUD tactics
still work for some managers. I once had a manager questioning my
skills just because I mentioned that Linux could possibly be
better than M$ in some areas. For this manager such an idea was
unimaginable and talking about it was blasphemy. He even came back
several times to show me articles in his manager magazines,
2. How many users does the project currently have?

There are between 200 and 600 downloads every month.
How many discussions
of it in newsgroups or blogs that were not initiated by participants?

I am busy programming and do not watch blogs. At least there is
reasonable traffic at the Seed7 homepage.
A hiring manager is more likely to be impressed by contributions to a
project if the manager uses it, knows someone who uses it, or at least
has heard of it, and can read a variety of opinions about it.

Well, I already talked about staff managers. Unless you are one of
the most prominent members of one of the most prominent projects it
will not help.
3. What resume buzzwords would work on the project justify? What is the
intersection with buzzwords in advertisements for suitable jobs?

I thought the goal was to aquire skills not buzzwords? :)
But you are right that a good buzzword list is important for
managers. IMHO buzzwords requested and skills needed to do a job
have almost no relationship. But I admit that buzzwords are
important to get a job.

For a list of Seed7 buzzwords see my signature. :)

BTW.: Everybody is invited to help the Seed7 project.

Greetings Thomas Mertes

Seed7 Homepage: http://seed7.sourceforge.net
Seed7 - The extensible programming language: User defined statements
and operators, abstract data types, templates without special
syntax, OO with interfaces and multiple dispatch, statically typed,
interpreted or compiled, portable, runs under linux/unix/windows.
 
P

Phlip

Lew said:
Someone without appropriate answers to these kinds of questions, who
complains bitterly, even if accurately, about why it's other people's
fault, who readily admits to "harassing" prospective employers, who
simply states that they're "really highly skilled" but has no verifiable
skills relevant to the employer, who asserts that they're "desperate to
find a job" but also says that they're unwilling to hustle - that person
will almost certainly not get hired. There are too many people with
verifiable skills, a solid work history, and a demonstrably positive
attitude with hustle who are competing for those positions.

We need to respond to clinical depression as a health problem, not a job
problem. These newsgroups have seen these threads before, for many years, with
the same recommendations...

(BTW the secret words here are "Rails" and "Craigslist". They apparently have
higher numbers than the corporate systems and sites. Go figure!)
 
T

Tamas K Papp

"Would you like fries with that?"

While working in a fast food chain is considered the ultimate bottom
on the job ladder (hence the term "McJob"), even that sector requires
some skills: serving customers the whole day at least demands the
right attitude, you need to be polite, etc. Judging the OP's attitude
from his posts, no fast food chain would employ him, or even if one
did, he would find himself on the street in a week with a valedictory
box of chicken nuggets.

Tamas
 
T

thomas.mertes

(e-mail address removed) wrote in

You're saying you think he's unemployed because of CL?
No.

If you read what he's been
posting for years about not being able to get a job, you would realize his problem has
nothing to do with CL.

Agree. OTOH I had discussions with several Lisp enthusiast
which did not show any people skills. The habbit to suppose
that everybody, who doesn't have the same opinion is an idiot,
is not really helpful to convince people. Discussions are about
exchanging opinions and not about forcing an opinion to others.
CL competence is valuable for programming job applicants.

You probably know that there are much bigger markets than
CL competence...
I'm not saying he does or
doesn't have such competence, but just that it's unrelated to the real reason why he
can't get a job.

You should learn CL yourself.  Even if you never have any use for it in any job, what
you learn from it can make you a much better programmer in any programming language.

By pure coincidence I just bought a book about Lisp a few days
ago. I had some Lisp knowledge already and wanted more
information. From what I have seen so far I can tell you:
I will not turn into a Lisp fan. :)

Greetings Thomas Mertes

Seed7 Homepage: http://seed7.sourceforge.net
Seed7 - The extensible programming language: User defined statements
and operators, abstract data types, templates without special
syntax, OO with interfaces and multiple dispatch, statically typed,
interpreted or compiled, portable, runs under linux/unix/windows.
 
P

Pillsy

Agree. OTOH I had discussions with several Lisp enthusiast
which did not show any people skills.

Eh, some people are jerks wherever you go, but I've really seen no
evidence that Lisp attracts them at a higher rate than any other
programming language.
[...]
You probably know that there are much bigger markets than
CL competence...

Market size is hardly the only factor when it comes to determining the
value of a skill.

Cheers,
Pillsy
[...]
 

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