Re: Tables versus divsions

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Chaddy2222, Sep 17, 2008.

  1. Chaddy2222

    Chaddy2222 Guest

    On Sep 17, 6:19 pm, richard <> wrote:
    > http://1littleworld.com/table101.html
    >
    > Some time ago I had posted on my website a little diddy to show
    > someone how using divisions could work just the same as a table.
    >
    > As I noted that my stats were showing some hits every now and then I
    > decided to dress it up a bit. This time showing how to create a table
    > appearance using not only divisions, but unordered list as well.

    That is rather pointless. If the data your wanting to show is ment to
    be a table, then a table is the best solution.
    --
    Regards Chad. http://freewebdesignonline.org
     
    Chaddy2222, Sep 17, 2008
    #1
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  2. richard <> writes:

    > Yes tables tags have their places and uses, but would it be better to
    > use divisions? Depends on the presentation.


    HTML is about semantic meaning, not presentation. Haven't you been
    reading *ANY* of the advice you've been given here?

    sherm--

    --
    My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
    Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
     
    Sherm Pendley, Sep 17, 2008
    #2
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  3. richard <> writes:

    > On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:00:28 -0400, Sherm Pendley
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>richard <> writes:
    >>
    >>> Yes tables tags have their places and uses, but would it be better to
    >>> use divisions? Depends on the presentation.

    >>
    >>HTML is about semantic meaning, not presentation. Haven't you been
    >>reading *ANY* of the advice you've been given here?

    >
    > Of course, but newbees want to do things the easiest way possible.
    > One of the first lessons is how to create a table so that's what they
    > know and use constantly.


    Abusing table elements for layout may be a common newbie mistake, but
    abusing divs to mark up tabular data is just as much so. The fact hat
    a lot of them make the same mistake doesn't make it right.

    > When CSS came around and more new things were added, a whole new world
    > of adventure opened it. I recall huge sites like MSN.com and
    > downloads.com that were totally designed in tables. Once designers
    > learned the new tricks, the old was forgotten.


    Do you use a gibberish generator to write your comments? None of this
    has one damn thing to do with what I said.

    Whether to use a div or a table has *nothing* to do with presentation;
    HTML is not about presentation. Which element to use depends on the
    semantic meaning of the text being marked up, not with how you want
    that text to look.

    sherm--

    --
    My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
    Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
     
    Sherm Pendley, Sep 17, 2008
    #3
  4. Chaddy2222

    Ari Heino Guest

    >> HTML is about semantic meaning, not presentation. Haven't you been
    >> reading *ANY* of the advice you've been given here?
    >>
    >> sherm--

    >
    > Of course, but newbees want to do things the easiest way possible.
    > One of the first lessons is how to create a table so that's what they
    > know and use constantly.


    And should use when presenting tabular data.

    > When CSS came around and more new things were added, a whole new world
    > of adventure opened it. I recall huge sites like MSN.com and
    > downloads.com that were totally designed in tables. Once designers
    > learned the new tricks, the old was forgotten.


    You missed Sherm's point about semantics totally and so did the guys at
    MSN etc. back then. Tables were _never_ meant for layout. They're
    designed for tabular data.

    Trying to do tricks with divs and lists when presenting tabular data is
    like replacing a fuse with an iron bolt. May work but go ahead and try
    and see what happens.

    --
    Ari
    http://users.utu.fi/athein/
     
    Ari Heino, Sep 17, 2008
    #4
  5. richard <> writes:

    > If html is not about presentation, then WTF do you use?


    CSS. HTML marks up what the text *is*, and CSS suggests how it should
    *look*.

    > I have seen other sites do the same demo. I only presented a table
    > like affair just to compare with.


    Bad example, then. Your "table like affair" is just that - a grid of
    tabular data for which a table element *would* be appropriate. If you
    mean to demonstrate how to use divs for page layout, then you should
    use an example that uses them for... wait for it... page layout.

    sherm--

    --
    My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
    Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
     
    Sherm Pendley, Sep 17, 2008
    #5
  6. Chaddy2222

    dorayme Guest

    In article <>,
    Sherm Pendley <> wrote:

    > HTML is not about presentation.


    Many people know or think they know what you mean. I would rather say it
    is not about *nice styling*.

    In the ordinary meaning of presentation - let us confine things to the
    visual for the moment but everything I say applies to sound and touch
    too - HTML is essentially about presentation. Its heart and soul is
    presentation and nothing else at all. If you turn off all author
    stylesheets you are left with one thing only, a basic presentation. You
    are not left with some primordial soup.

    The whole idea of the semantics of HTML elements as far as a browser is
    concerned is to know how to present the material at least in a basic
    form. It is all about presentation. It is not about something mysterious
    called meaning. It is about presenting visual patterns in a form that by
    custom and practice is known to readers. When a reader sees a short bold
    bigger than the rest line of text, he immediately knows here is
    something that is a clue to the text below.

    Yes, it is a heading! Humans understand wha a heading is, what it does
    when properly applied. But a heading is not some mysterious semantic
    object that somehow speaks for itself no matter what the hell it "looks
    like". How it looks is absolutely part of its nature and the very thing
    that the browser is concerned to produce and the human to recognise. The
    human does recognises the presentation, the look. It and it alone is the
    clue.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Sep 17, 2008
    #6
  7. Chaddy2222

    dorayme Guest

    In article <garnd7$1vfv$>,
    Ari Heino <> wrote:

    > Trying to do tricks with divs and lists when presenting tabular data is
    > like replacing a fuse with an iron bolt. May work but go ahead and try
    > and see what happens.


    I don't think so Ari! One can perfectly well present all manner of
    tabular data in non *HTML table* form. A bolt is so fusey that it is not
    a fuse at all, it is more like a man who is hard wired to suffer
    premature ejaculation rather than one who is merely not as good as
    Anthony or Casanova or Don Juan.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Sep 17, 2008
    #7
  8. Chaddy2222

    rf Guest

    "dorayme" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <garnd7$1vfv$>,
    > Ari Heino <> wrote:
    >
    >> Trying to do tricks with divs and lists when presenting tabular data is
    >> like replacing a fuse with an iron bolt. May work but go ahead and try
    >> and see what happens.


    I would say more like replacing a fuse with a peice of string. A fuse and a
    peice of string are designed for totally different purposes.

    > I don't think so Ari! One can perfectly well present all manner of
    > tabular data in non *HTML table* form.


    And when one narrows the browser canvas (try it) the "table" is no longer a
    table.

    Tables don't wrap rows. Richard's approach does.

    When trying to read my bus timetable I would much rather have a horizontal
    scroll bar (if required) than wrapped rows.
     
    rf, Sep 18, 2008
    #8
  9. richard wrote:
    > On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 00:53:06 GMT, "rf" <> wrote:
    >
    >> "dorayme" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> In article <garnd7$1vfv$>,
    >>> Ari Heino <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Trying to do tricks with divs and lists when presenting tabular data is
    >>>> like replacing a fuse with an iron bolt. May work but go ahead and try
    >>>> and see what happens.

    >> I would say more like replacing a fuse with a peice of string. A fuse and a
    >> peice of string are designed for totally different purposes.
    >>
    >>> I don't think so Ari! One can perfectly well present all manner of
    >>> tabular data in non *HTML table* form.

    >> And when one narrows the browser canvas (try it) the "table" is no longer a
    >> table.
    >>
    >> Tables don't wrap rows. Richard's approach does.
    >>
    >> When trying to read my bus timetable I would much rather have a horizontal
    >> scroll bar (if required) than wrapped rows.
    >>

    >
    > That's only because I don't expect people to have 100px wide screens.
    > I should have that fixed in the next version.
    >


    No but they may have only a few hundred with their cell.

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
     
    Jonathan N. Little, Sep 18, 2008
    #9
  10. Chaddy2222

    rf Guest

    "richard" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 00:53:06 GMT, "rf" <> wrote:


    >>And when one narrows the browser canvas (try it) the "table" is no longer
    >>a
    >>table.
    >>
    >>Tables don't wrap rows. Richard's approach does.
    >>
    >>When trying to read my bus timetable I would much rather have a horizontal
    >>scroll bar (if required) than wrapped rows.
    >>

    >
    > That's only because I don't expect people to have 100px wide screens.
    > I should have that fixed in the next version.



    The "example" you posted was only 100px or so wide. My real-world bus
    timetable is wider than that. Your table replacement does not work with my
    bus timetable.
     
    rf, Sep 18, 2008
    #10
  11. Chaddy2222

    Neredbojias Guest

    Neredbojias, Sep 18, 2008
    #11
  12. Chaddy2222

    dorayme Guest

    In article <SDhAk.37244$>,
    "rf" <> wrote:

    >
    > "dorayme" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > One can perfectly well present all manner of
    > > tabular data in non *HTML table* form.

    >
    > And when one narrows the browser canvas (try it) the "table" is no longer a
    > table


    Well, I was meaning something broader than emulating an actual grid. For
    example, one can float a couple of narrow lists together so they match
    up item for item and the author can prevent wrapping.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Sep 18, 2008
    #12
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