Re: Terminating list items with (suitable) punctuation

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Karl Groves, Apr 18, 2004.

  1. Karl Groves

    Karl Groves Guest

    "jake" <> wrote in message
    news:$...
    >
    > My question is directed to those of you who have sight problems and use
    > screen-readers or talking browsers to access Web pages.
    >
    > When a list of items is displayed, it seems to be common practice (well,
    > 'frequent practice', anyway) not to put any punctuation at the end of
    > each list item, causing the words to run together when spoken.
    >
    > I normally put a punctuation mark (normally just a comma) at the end of
    > each item to stop this happening.
    >
    > (I also put punctuation anywhere on a page where it seems to me that
    > words are 'running together').
    >
    > It has been suggested to me that this is unnecessary as people who
    > regularly use screen-readers, etc. do not find this a problem in
    > practice.
    >
    > I'd appreciate your comments on this point if you are a regular
    > screen-reader (or similar technology) user.
    >


    (Please keep in mind that I am not blind, so my perception is undoubtedly
    different)

    Screenreaders that I've experienced (Jaws, Window Eyes, and Homepage Reader)
    all create a pause at the end of each list item.
    So, in my experience, punctuation at the end of each list item does not seem
    to be necessary.

    (Added alt.html - which has considerably more traffic than the others you've
    listed)

    -Karl
     
    Karl Groves, Apr 18, 2004
    #1
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  2. Karl Groves

    jake Guest

    In message <c5u3it$724$>, Karl Groves
    <> writes
    >
    >"jake" <> wrote in message
    >news:$...
    >>
    >> My question is directed to those of you who have sight problems and use
    >> screen-readers or talking browsers to access Web pages.
    >>
    >> When a list of items is displayed, it seems to be common practice (well,
    >> 'frequent practice', anyway) not to put any punctuation at the end of
    >> each list item, causing the words to run together when spoken.
    >>
    >> I normally put a punctuation mark (normally just a comma) at the end of
    >> each item to stop this happening.
    >>
    >> (I also put punctuation anywhere on a page where it seems to me that
    >> words are 'running together').
    >>
    >> It has been suggested to me that this is unnecessary as people who
    >> regularly use screen-readers, etc. do not find this a problem in
    >> practice.
    >>
    >> I'd appreciate your comments on this point if you are a regular
    >> screen-reader (or similar technology) user.
    >>

    >
    >(Please keep in mind that I am not blind, so my perception is undoubtedly
    >different)
    >
    >Screenreaders that I've experienced (Jaws, Window Eyes, and Homepage Reader)
    >all create a pause at the end of each list item.
    >So, in my experience, punctuation at the end of each list item does not seem
    >to be necessary.
    >
    >(Added alt.html - which has considerably more traffic than the others you've
    >listed)
    >
    >-Karl
    >
    >

    Thanks Karl.

    I left alt.html off the list as the accessibility groups seemed the
    right place to post. But maybe you're right.

    Incidentally, HPR (which I test with) doesn't seem to automatically
    pause at the end of each list item if there's no punctuation -- at least
    not consistently -- hence why I normally add punctuation.

    Somebody (apologies -- can't remember who) recently posted an example
    (.wav file) on alt.html.critique showing the voice output from a version
    of the Windows OS which exhibited the same problem.

    regards.

    --
    Jake
     
    jake, Apr 18, 2004
    #2
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  3. Karl Groves

    Karl Groves Guest

    "jake" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In message <c5u3it$724$>, Karl Groves
    > <> writes
    > >
    > >"jake" <> wrote in message
    > >news:$...
    > >>
    > >> My question is directed to those of you who have sight problems and use
    > >> screen-readers or talking browsers to access Web pages.
    > >>
    > >> When a list of items is displayed, it seems to be common practice

    (well,
    > >> 'frequent practice', anyway) not to put any punctuation at the end of
    > >> each list item, causing the words to run together when spoken.
    > >>
    > >> I normally put a punctuation mark (normally just a comma) at the end of
    > >> each item to stop this happening.
    > >>
    > >> (I also put punctuation anywhere on a page where it seems to me that
    > >> words are 'running together').
    > >>
    > >> It has been suggested to me that this is unnecessary as people who
    > >> regularly use screen-readers, etc. do not find this a problem in
    > >> practice.
    > >>
    > >> I'd appreciate your comments on this point if you are a regular
    > >> screen-reader (or similar technology) user.
    > >>

    > >
    > >(Please keep in mind that I am not blind, so my perception is undoubtedly
    > >different)
    > >
    > >Screenreaders that I've experienced (Jaws, Window Eyes, and Homepage

    Reader)
    > >all create a pause at the end of each list item.
    > >So, in my experience, punctuation at the end of each list item does not

    seem
    > >to be necessary.
    > >
    > >(Added alt.html - which has considerably more traffic than the others

    you've
    > >listed)
    > >
    > >-Karl
    > >
    > >

    > Thanks Karl.
    >
    > I left alt.html off the list as the accessibility groups seemed the
    > right place to post. But maybe you're right.


    Don't get me wrong. The accessibility groups are most appropriate, IMO. Its
    just that there's hardly any traffic to them. :-(

    > Incidentally, HPR (which I test with) doesn't seem to automatically
    > pause at the end of each list item if there's no punctuation -- at least
    > not consistently -- hence why I normally add punctuation.


    Weird. I tested a UL list with HPR just before this post, and my version did
    pause.

    -Karl
     
    Karl Groves, Apr 18, 2004
    #3
  4. Karl Groves

    Eric Jarvis Guest

    Karl Groves wrote:
    >
    > "jake" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > >
    > > Incidentally, HPR (which I test with) doesn't seem to automatically
    > > pause at the end of each list item if there's no punctuation -- at least
    > > not consistently -- hence why I normally add punctuation.

    >
    > Weird. I tested a UL list with HPR just before this post, and my version did
    > pause.
    >


    I don't have a copy to check with, but is it possible that it's a
    configurable option?

    --
    eric
    www.ericjarvis.co.uk
    "live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
     
    Eric Jarvis, Apr 18, 2004
    #4
  5. Karl Groves

    jake Guest

    In message <>, Eric Jarvis
    <> writes
    >Karl Groves wrote:
    >>
    >> "jake" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >> >
    >> > Incidentally, HPR (which I test with) doesn't seem to automatically
    >> > pause at the end of each list item if there's no punctuation -- at least
    >> > not consistently -- hence why I normally add punctuation.

    >>
    >> Weird. I tested a UL list with HPR just before this post, and my version did
    >> pause.
    >>

    >
    >I don't have a copy to check with, but is it possible that it's a
    >configurable option?
    >

    Nope; not a configurable option. I think it's more likely to be a
    'feature' of the appropriate text-to-speech engine employed by the
    software.

    If the HTML mark-up says 'list', then you would expect the reader
    software to be smart enough to put a slight pause at the end of every
    <li>

    However, assuming that the pauses do go missing, the question is whether
    sight-impaired people find this a problem in practice. If they don't,
    then I guess it's nothing to be too concerned about.


    regards.

    --
    Jake
     
    jake, Apr 18, 2004
    #5
  6. Karl Groves

    jake Guest

    In message <c5u6c6$942$>, Karl Groves
    <> writes
    >
    >"jake" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> In message <c5u3it$724$>, Karl Groves
    >> <> writes
    >> >
    >> >"jake" <> wrote in message
    >> >news:$...
    >> >>
    >> >> My question is directed to those of you who have sight problems and use
    >> >> screen-readers or talking browsers to access Web pages.
    >> >>
    >> >> When a list of items is displayed, it seems to be common practice

    >(well,
    >> >> 'frequent practice', anyway) not to put any punctuation at the end of
    >> >> each list item, causing the words to run together when spoken.
    >> >>
    >> >> I normally put a punctuation mark (normally just a comma) at the end of
    >> >> each item to stop this happening.
    >> >>
    >> >> (I also put punctuation anywhere on a page where it seems to me that
    >> >> words are 'running together').
    >> >>
    >> >> It has been suggested to me that this is unnecessary as people who
    >> >> regularly use screen-readers, etc. do not find this a problem in
    >> >> practice.
    >> >>
    >> >> I'd appreciate your comments on this point if you are a regular
    >> >> screen-reader (or similar technology) user.
    >> >>

    [snip]

    >
    >> Incidentally, HPR (which I test with) doesn't seem to automatically
    >> pause at the end of each list item if there's no punctuation -- at least
    >> not consistently -- hence why I normally add punctuation.

    >
    >Weird. I tested a UL list with HPR just before this post, and my version did
    >pause.
    >
    >-Karl
    >

    OK. I'll have to try and find a page where this happens -- and maybe you
    could test it?

    regards.
    >


    --
    Jake
     
    jake, Apr 18, 2004
    #6
  7. Karl Groves

    Eric Jarvis Guest

    jake wrote:
    > In message <>, Eric Jarvis
    > <> writes
    > >Karl Groves wrote:
    > >>
    > >> "jake" <> wrote in message
    > >> news:...
    > >> >
    > >> > Incidentally, HPR (which I test with) doesn't seem to automatically
    > >> > pause at the end of each list item if there's no punctuation -- at least
    > >> > not consistently -- hence why I normally add punctuation.
    > >>
    > >> Weird. I tested a UL list with HPR just before this post, and my version did
    > >> pause.
    > >>

    > >
    > >I don't have a copy to check with, but is it possible that it's a
    > >configurable option?
    > >

    > Nope; not a configurable option. I think it's more likely to be a
    > 'feature' of the appropriate text-to-speech engine employed by the
    > software.
    >
    > If the HTML mark-up says 'list', then you would expect the reader
    > software to be smart enough to put a slight pause at the end of every
    > <li>
    >
    > However, assuming that the pauses do go missing, the question is whether
    > sight-impaired people find this a problem in practice. If they don't,
    > then I guess it's nothing to be too concerned about.
    >


    personally I'm not worried yet since all my lists either have punctuation,
    or more often, have all the text marked up as separate paragraphs

    --
    eric
    www.ericjarvis.co.uk
    "live fast, die only if strictly necessary"
     
    Eric Jarvis, Apr 18, 2004
    #7
  8. Karl Groves

    Mark Parnell Guest

    On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 17:30:53 +0100, jake <>
    declared in
    alt.comp.accessibility,alt.html.web-accessibility,alt.web-accessability,alt.comp.blind-users,alt.html:

    > In message <>, Eric Jarvis
    > <> writes
    >>Karl Groves wrote:
    >>>
    >>> "jake" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>> >
    >>> > Incidentally, HPR (which I test with) doesn't seem to automatically
    >>> > pause at the end of each list item if there's no punctuation -- at least
    >>> > not consistently -- hence why I normally add punctuation.
    >>>
    >>> Weird. I tested a UL list with HPR just before this post, and my version did
    >>> pause.
    >>>

    >>
    >>I don't have a copy to check with, but is it possible that it's a
    >>configurable option?
    >>

    > Nope; not a configurable option. I think it's more likely to be a
    > 'feature' of the appropriate text-to-speech engine employed by the
    > software.


    Perhaps it only pauses if the <li> element is explicitly closed (i.e.
    </li>)?

    Just throwing suggestions around. :)

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
     
    Mark Parnell, Apr 19, 2004
    #8
  9. Karl Groves

    jake Guest

    In message <s90vy9ho1ymh$>, Mark Parnell
    <> writes
    >On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 17:30:53 +0100, jake <>
    >declared in
    >alt.comp.accessibility,alt.html.web-accessibility,alt.web-accessability,
    >alt.comp.blind-users,alt.html:
    >
    >> In message <>, Eric Jarvis
    >> <> writes
    >>>Karl Groves wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>> "jake" <> wrote in message
    >>>> news:...
    >>>> >
    >>>> > Incidentally, HPR (which I test with) doesn't seem to automatically
    >>>> > pause at the end of each list item if there's no punctuation -- at least
    >>>> > not consistently -- hence why I normally add punctuation.
    >>>>
    >>>> Weird. I tested a UL list with HPR just before this post, and my
    >>>>version did
    >>>> pause.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>I don't have a copy to check with, but is it possible that it's a
    >>>configurable option?
    >>>

    >> Nope; not a configurable option. I think it's more likely to be a
    >> 'feature' of the appropriate text-to-speech engine employed by the
    >> software.

    >
    >Perhaps it only pauses if the <li> element is explicitly closed (i.e.
    ></li>)?
    >
    >Just throwing suggestions around. :)
    >

    That's a theory worth testing; I'll let you know ;-)

    --
    Jake
     
    jake, Apr 19, 2004
    #9
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