Re: To what extent can Java be written in Chinese?

Discussion in 'Java' started by Lew, May 22, 2010.

  1. Lew

    Lew Guest

    Peter Olcott wrote:
    > http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jls/second_edition/html/lexical.doc.html
    >
    > I already have this link, and these seems to indicate that
    > the only internationalization of the Java language pertains
    > to identifiers. From this document it looks like no local
    > (non ASCII) punctuation or local (non ASCII) decimal digits
    > are allowed in the Java language. Its this definitively
    > correct?


    That is correct, insofar as non-String constants and other non-identifier
    elements outside of comments are concerned, but of course you can
    internationalize the display of those values to your heart's content.

    There really is no such thing as "punctuation" in the Java language, as the
    term is usually understood. There are non-alphabetic, non-numeric characters
    in the language like semicolon (';') that have specific semantics.

    You should not use an out-of-date language specification, though. Use the
    current one.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, May 22, 2010
    #1
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  2. Lew

    Jeff Higgins Guest

    On 5/22/2010 4:28 PM, Peter Olcott wrote:
    > "Lew"<> wrote in message
    > news:ht9dor$icr$...
    >> Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>>
    >>> http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jls/second_edition/html/lexical.doc.html
    >>>
    >>> I already have this link, and these seems to indicate
    >>> that
    >>> the only internationalization of the Java language
    >>> pertains
    >>> to identifiers. From this document it looks like no local
    >>> (non ASCII) punctuation or local (non ASCII) decimal
    >>> digits
    >>> are allowed in the Java language. Its this definitively
    >>> correct?

    >>
    >> That is correct, insofar as non-String constants and other
    >> non-identifier elements outside of comments are concerned,
    >> but of course you can internationalize the display of
    >> those values to your heart's content.
    >>
    >> There really is no such thing as "punctuation" in the Java
    >> language, as the term is usually understood. There are
    >> non-alphabetic, non-numeric characters in the language
    >> like semicolon (';') that have specific semantics.
    >>
    >> You should not use an out-of-date language specification,
    >> though. Use the current one.

    >
    > Got a link to this?
    >
    >>
    >> --
    >> Lew

    >
    > One guy in another group was telling me that the typical way
    > to internationalize a computer language would be to take the
    > local punctuation marks and translate them in their ASCII
    > equivalents. The case in point was a Comma as the delimiter
    > between parameters.
    >
    >

    A preprocessor?
     
    Jeff Higgins, May 22, 2010
    #2
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  3. Lew

    Lew Guest

    Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>> http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jls/second_edition/html/lexical.doc.html


    Lew wrote:
    >> You should not use an out-of-date language specification,
    >> though. Use the current one.


    Peter Olcott wrote:
    > Got a link to this?


    Yes, and you do, too.

    What, you missed the one in Jeff Higgins's reply to your post a half hour
    earlier than mine?

    I didn't think it necessary to repeat information another respondent had
    already just provided you.

    Failing that, GIYF, or just follow the usual links through java.sun.com.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, May 22, 2010
    #3
  4. Lew

    markspace Guest

    Peter Olcott wrote:

    > One guy in another group was telling me that the typical way
    > to internationalize a computer language would be to take the
    > local punctuation marks and translate them in their ASCII
    > equivalents. The case in point was a Comma as the delimiter
    > between parameters.


    I think a better way might be to use an IDE that understands Java, and
    therefore uses the correct punctuation marks/code points to begin with.

    Are you actually having an issue with this? Or just speculating that it
    might be an issue?

    I'd get one of your "foreign" coders to try out either NetBeans or
    Eclipse to see if there are any issues, before going off half-cocked
    with some sort of weird translation scheme. I couldn't imagine trying
    to write code with Notepad or something, so I don't see how requiring an
    IDE of some sort would be an issue.
     
    markspace, May 23, 2010
    #4
  5. Lew

    Lew Guest

    Peter Olcott wrote:
    > There are apparently Chinese equivalents to the digit [0-9].
    > How does Java handle this for Chinese programmers?


    By making them use '0' through '9', as Jeff Higgins explained upthread.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, May 23, 2010
    #5
  6. "Lew" <> wrote in message
    news:hta6lq$jh8$...
    > Peter Olcott wrote:
    >> There are apparently Chinese equivalents to the digit [0-9].
    >> How does Java handle this for Chinese programmers?

    >
    > By making them use '0' through '9', as Jeff Higgins explained upthread.
    >


    if you have seen many Asian sites, most often they end up just using the
    Western/Arabic number system anyways...

    note though that to be "proper" they would need a lot more characters than
    just the numbers (it is not exactly a direct analogue of decimal), with many
    of the characters serving essentially as scales (it can be compared to a
    multiply-add chain...).

    it can be compared with traditional spoken-English usage, where many extra
    words are used to signify different units and scales ("hundred", "thousand",
    ....), rather than simply giving a string of digits.


    now, considering the relative effort of typing CJK characters vs typing the
    Arabic numerals, and one can ask if they are really missing out on much...
     
    BGB / cr88192, May 23, 2010
    #6
  7. Lew

    Jeff Higgins Guest

    On 5/22/2010 10:52 PM, Peter Olcott wrote:

    >
    > I am designing my own computer language from scratch. It is
    > a subset of Java / C++. I want to understand how Java goes
    > about making their language available to Chinese programmers
    > so that I can understand how Java internationalizes their
    > language.
    >
    > There are apparently Chinese equivalents to the digit [0-9].
    > How does Java handle this for Chinese programmers?
    >
    >


    <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChinesePython>
     
    Jeff Higgins, May 23, 2010
    #7
  8. Lew

    Tom Anderson Guest

    On Sun, 23 May 2010, Jeff Higgins wrote:

    > On 5/22/2010 10:52 PM, Peter Olcott wrote:
    >
    >> I am designing my own computer language from scratch. It is a subset of
    >> Java / C++. I want to understand how Java goes about making their
    >> language available to Chinese programmers so that I can understand how
    >> Java internationalizes their language.
    >>
    >> There are apparently Chinese equivalents to the digit [0-9].
    >> How does Java handle this for Chinese programmers?

    >
    > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChinesePython>


    http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/weblog/images/chinese-python-poster.jpg

    tom

    --
    One horse laugh is worth a thousand syllogisms. -- H. L. Mencken
     
    Tom Anderson, May 23, 2010
    #8
  9. Lew

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 23-05-2010 09:58, Peter Olcott wrote:
    > "Lew"<> wrote in message
    > news:hta6lq$jh8$...
    >> Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>> There are apparently Chinese equivalents to the digit
    >>> [0-9].
    >>> How does Java handle this for Chinese programmers?

    >>
    >> By making them use '0' through '9', as Jeff Higgins
    >> explained upthread.

    >
    > I am guessing that this prohibits mainland China developers
    > from using java, because of their cultural purity laws.


    I don't know much about China.

    But what do they do when writing C code for GCC on
    their Linux flavor?

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, May 23, 2010
    #9
  10. Lew

    Lew Guest

    Peter Olcott wrote:
    > In China because of their cultural purity laws they would
    > miss out on being able to use Java for development at all.


    Mainland China. They might not be so restrictive in Taiwan.

    Are you quite sure that what you say is even true in mainland China? Care to
    cite some references to substantiate that claim?

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, May 23, 2010
    #10
  11. Lew

    Lew Guest

    Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>> There are apparently Chinese equivalents to the digit
    >>> [0-9].
    >>> How does Java handle this for Chinese programmers?


    Lew wrote:
    >> By making them use '0' through '9', as Jeff Higgins
    >> explained upthread.


    Peter Olcott wrote:
    >> --
    >> Lew


    Don't quote sigs.

    > Isn't this a little ethnocentristic?


    No.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, May 23, 2010
    #11
  12. Lew

    Jeff Higgins Guest

    On 5/23/2010 1:29 PM, Peter Olcott wrote:
    > "Arne Vajhøj"<> wrote in message
    > news:4bf936f1$0$285$...
    >> On 23-05-2010 09:58, Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>> "Lew"<> wrote in message
    >>> news:hta6lq$jh8$...
    >>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>>>> There are apparently Chinese equivalents to the digit
    >>>>> [0-9].
    >>>>> How does Java handle this for Chinese programmers?
    >>>>
    >>>> By making them use '0' through '9', as Jeff Higgins
    >>>> explained upthread.
    >>>
    >>> I am guessing that this prohibits mainland China
    >>> developers
    >>> from using java, because of their cultural purity laws.

    >>
    >> I don't know much about China.
    >>
    >> But what do they do when writing C code for GCC on
    >> their Linux flavor?
    >>
    >> Arne
    >>

    >
    > From what I understand they must write all code in assembly
    > language because no other language is sufficiently adapted
    > to their culture.
    >
    >

    Sounds like a big opportunity for the right language developer.
     
    Jeff Higgins, May 23, 2010
    #12
  13. Jeff Higgins wrote:
    > On 5/23/2010 1:29 PM, Peter Olcott wrote:
    >> "Arne Vajhøj"<> wrote in message
    >> news:4bf936f1$0$285$...
    >>> On 23-05-2010 09:58, Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>>> "Lew"<> wrote in message
    >>>> news:hta6lq$jh8$...
    >>>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>>>>> There are apparently Chinese equivalents to the digit
    >>>>>> [0-9].
    >>>>>> How does Java handle this for Chinese programmers?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> By making them use '0' through '9', as Jeff Higgins
    >>>>> explained upthread.
    >>>>
    >>>> I am guessing that this prohibits mainland China
    >>>> developers
    >>>> from using java, because of their cultural purity laws.
    >>>
    >>> I don't know much about China.
    >>>
    >>> But what do they do when writing C code for GCC on
    >>> their Linux flavor?
    >>>
    >>> Arne
    >>>

    >>
    >> From what I understand they must write all code in assembly
    >> language because no other language is sufficiently adapted
    >> to their culture.
    >>
    >>

    > Sounds like a big opportunity for the right language developer.


    Writing a preprocessor that allows "Java in Chinese" would take at most a
    few weeks.
     
    Mike Schilling, May 23, 2010
    #13
  14. Lew

    Jeff Higgins Guest

    On 5/23/2010 1:29 PM, Peter Olcott wrote:
    > "Arne Vajhøj"<> wrote in message
    > news:4bf936f1$0$285$...
    >> On 23-05-2010 09:58, Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>> "Lew"<> wrote in message
    >>> news:hta6lq$jh8$...
    >>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>>>> There are apparently Chinese equivalents to the digit
    >>>>> [0-9].
    >>>>> How does Java handle this for Chinese programmers?
    >>>>
    >>>> By making them use '0' through '9', as Jeff Higgins
    >>>> explained upthread.
    >>>
    >>> I am guessing that this prohibits mainland China
    >>> developers
    >>> from using java, because of their cultural purity laws.

    >>
    >> I don't know much about China.
    >>
    >> But what do they do when writing C code for GCC on
    >> their Linux flavor?
    >>
    >> Arne
    >>

    >
    > From what I understand they must write all code in assembly
    > language because no other language is sufficiently adapted
    > to their culture.
    >
    >

    Are there pure Chinese operating systems running pure Chinese
    processors? What is the Chinese word for Boolean?
     
    Jeff Higgins, May 23, 2010
    #14
  15. Lew

    Jeff Higgins Guest

    On 5/23/2010 1:47 PM, Mike Schilling wrote:
    > Jeff Higgins wrote:
    >> On 5/23/2010 1:29 PM, Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>> "Arne Vajhøj"<> wrote in message
    >>> news:4bf936f1$0$285$...
    >>>> On 23-05-2010 09:58, Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>>>> "Lew"<> wrote in message
    >>>>> news:hta6lq$jh8$...
    >>>>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>>>>>> There are apparently Chinese equivalents to the digit
    >>>>>>> [0-9].
    >>>>>>> How does Java handle this for Chinese programmers?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> By making them use '0' through '9', as Jeff Higgins
    >>>>>> explained upthread.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I am guessing that this prohibits mainland China
    >>>>> developers
    >>>>> from using java, because of their cultural purity laws.
    >>>>
    >>>> I don't know much about China.
    >>>>
    >>>> But what do they do when writing C code for GCC on
    >>>> their Linux flavor?
    >>>>
    >>>> Arne
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> From what I understand they must write all code in assembly
    >>> language because no other language is sufficiently adapted
    >>> to their culture.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> Sounds like a big opportunity for the right language developer.

    >
    > Writing a preprocessor that allows "Java in Chinese" would take at most a
    > few weeks.
    >
    >

    He didn't respond to my question about a preprocessor. Perhaps he didn't
    see my post.
     
    Jeff Higgins, May 23, 2010
    #15
  16. Lew

    Lew Guest

    Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>> In China because of their cultural purity laws they would
    >>> miss out on being able to use Java for development at
    >>> all.


    Lew wrote:
    >> Mainland China. They might not be so restrictive in
    >> Taiwan.
    >>
    >> Are you quite sure that what you say is even true in
    >> mainland China? Care to cite some references to
    >> substantiate that claim?


    Peter Olcott wrote:
    >> --
    >> Lew


    Please do not quote sigs.

    > I heard this from two different reliable sources on
    > newsgroups.


    Even if I accept your assessment of the reliability of undisclosed anonymous
    unconfirmed sources, which I do not, that does not mean there is no presence
    of Chinese-language programming in Java outside of mainland China.

    However, some brief googling for use of Java in (mainland) China indicates
    that there is some, for example in the Android mobile-phone market. Chinese
    outsourcing companies also produce a goodly amount of Java and Java EE software.

    According to http://www.codeweblog.com/java-language-overview/
    "... in China, Java is also in full swing"
    (Surely the pun was unintentional)
    (This does not strike me as more reliable than your unreliable sources,
    however having equally unreliable but contradictory information is informative
    in its own way.)

    There was at one time a "China Java Users Group", https://cnjug.dev.java.net/,
    thoughit does not seem extant now.

    <http://www.geometricglobal.com/Corporate/Careers/Current+Opportunities/Opportunities+in+China/index.aspx>
    has a job opportunity for a Java/J2EE developer in Shanghai.

    Oh, look! Here's a posting from today (23 May, 2010) for a Java Software
    Engineer in Beijing:
    <http://jobs.thomsonreuters.com/job/BEIJING,-BEIJING,-CHINA-Java-Software-Engineer-Job/778416/>

    So much for how "reliable" your sources are.

    --
    Lew
    Don't quote sigs.
     
    Lew, May 23, 2010
    #16
  17. Lew

    Jeff Higgins Guest

    On 5/23/2010 1:57 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
    > On 5/23/2010 1:29 PM, Peter Olcott wrote:
    >> "Arne Vajhøj"<> wrote in message
    >> news:4bf936f1$0$285$...
    >>> On 23-05-2010 09:58, Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>>> "Lew"<> wrote in message
    >>>> news:hta6lq$jh8$...
    >>>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>>>>> There are apparently Chinese equivalents to the digit
    >>>>>> [0-9].
    >>>>>> How does Java handle this for Chinese programmers?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> By making them use '0' through '9', as Jeff Higgins
    >>>>> explained upthread.
    >>>>
    >>>> I am guessing that this prohibits mainland China
    >>>> developers
    >>>> from using java, because of their cultural purity laws.
    >>>
    >>> I don't know much about China.
    >>>
    >>> But what do they do when writing C code for GCC on
    >>> their Linux flavor?
    >>>
    >>> Arne
    >>>

    >>
    >> From what I understand they must write all code in assembly
    >> language because no other language is sufficiently adapted
    >> to their culture.
    >>
    >>

    > Are there pure Chinese operating systems running pure Chinese
    > processors? What is the Chinese word for Boolean?
    >
    >

    <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loongson>
     
    Jeff Higgins, May 23, 2010
    #17
  18. Lew

    Jeff Higgins Guest

    On 5/23/2010 2:46 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
    > On 5/23/2010 1:57 PM, Jeff Higgins wrote:
    >> On 5/23/2010 1:29 PM, Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>> "Arne Vajhøj"<> wrote in message
    >>> news:4bf936f1$0$285$...
    >>>> On 23-05-2010 09:58, Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>>>> "Lew"<> wrote in message
    >>>>> news:hta6lq$jh8$...
    >>>>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>>>>>> There are apparently Chinese equivalents to the digit
    >>>>>>> [0-9].
    >>>>>>> How does Java handle this for Chinese programmers?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> By making them use '0' through '9', as Jeff Higgins
    >>>>>> explained upthread.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I am guessing that this prohibits mainland China
    >>>>> developers
    >>>>> from using java, because of their cultural purity laws.
    >>>>
    >>>> I don't know much about China.
    >>>>
    >>>> But what do they do when writing C code for GCC on
    >>>> their Linux flavor?
    >>>>
    >>>> Arne
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> From what I understand they must write all code in assembly
    >>> language because no other language is sufficiently adapted
    >>> to their culture.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> Are there pure Chinese operating systems running pure Chinese
    >> processors? What is the Chinese word for Boolean?
    >>
    >>

    > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loongson>
    >
    >

    <http://www.gdium.com/fr/group/58/home>
     
    Jeff Higgins, May 23, 2010
    #18
  19. On 05/23/2010 09:56 AM, Peter Olcott wrote:
    > "Lew"<> wrote in message
    > news:hta6lq$jh8$...
    >> Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>> There are apparently Chinese equivalents to the digit
    >>> [0-9].
    >>> How does Java handle this for Chinese programmers?

    >>
    >> By making them use '0' through '9', as Jeff Higgins
    >> explained upthread.

    >
    > Isn't this a little ethnocentristic?


    I think I read somewhere that Greek mathematicians preferred the
    Babylonian system when having to work with fractions, so preferring
    others' numeral systems is nothing new. Heck, the standard numerals in
    the Latin script are imported from Arabic--try doing long division with
    Roman numerals.

    Arabic numerals are probably the most widely-recognized number system,
    and I have seen it used even in Japanese publications. If it's important
    enough that people learn to recognize it for daily reading, than using
    it as the only supported numeral system in an already Angloamerocentric
    system isn't a big step.

    I would also like to note that there are Roman numerals that most
    programmers in the West would know pretty well, and they do have Unicode
    support. I don't know of any programming language that accepts said
    numerals as valid numbers. Well, non-esoteric programming language...

    --
    Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not
    tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth
     
    Joshua Cranmer, May 23, 2010
    #19
  20. Lew

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 23-05-2010 13:29, Peter Olcott wrote:
    > "Arne Vajhøj"<> wrote in message
    > news:4bf936f1$0$285$...
    >> On 23-05-2010 09:58, Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>> "Lew"<> wrote in message
    >>> news:hta6lq$jh8$...
    >>>> Peter Olcott wrote:
    >>>>> There are apparently Chinese equivalents to the digit
    >>>>> [0-9].
    >>>>> How does Java handle this for Chinese programmers?
    >>>>
    >>>> By making them use '0' through '9', as Jeff Higgins
    >>>> explained upthread.
    >>>
    >>> I am guessing that this prohibits mainland China
    >>> developers
    >>> from using java, because of their cultural purity laws.

    >>
    >> I don't know much about China.
    >>
    >> But what do they do when writing C code for GCC on
    >> their Linux flavor?

    >
    > From what I understand they must write all code in assembly
    > language because no other language is sufficiently adapted
    > to their culture.


    All code in assembly??

    I think someone has been playing a joke on you!

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, May 23, 2010
    #20
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