Re: Unable to move bullets to left of table.

Discussion in 'HTML' started by dorayme, Aug 19, 2008.

  1. dorayme

    dorayme Guest

    In article <>,
    DLU <> wrote:

    > <body>
    > <!-- TABLE:: CNRCC COMMITTEES -->
    > <tbody>


    Have you no means to check simple validity of a document as a first step?

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Aug 19, 2008
    #1
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  2. dorayme

    Bergamot Guest

    Neredbojias wrote:
    > On 20 Aug 2008, DLU <> wrote:
    >
    >> I still have not found a way to move the bullets (<li><a
    >> to the left as I would like to.

    >
    > ul {
    > margin:0;
    > padding-left:1em;
    > }


    Make that padding-left:20px;

    IE doesn't do well with em values here, only px will do.

    --
    Berg
    Bergamot, Aug 21, 2008
    #2
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  3. dorayme

    Neredbojias Guest

    On 21 Aug 2008, Bergamot <> wrote:

    >
    > Neredbojias wrote:
    >> On 20 Aug 2008, DLU <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> I still have not found a way to move the bullets (<li><a
    >>> to the left as I would like to.

    >>
    >> ul {
    >> margin:0;
    >> padding-left:1em;
    >> }

    >
    > Make that padding-left:20px;
    >
    > IE doesn't do well with em values here, only px will do.


    Not saying you're wrong, but ems seem to work ok in my home page:

    http://www.neredbojias.net/

    Maybe the font matters.

    --
    Neredbojias
    http://www.neredbojias.net/
    Great Sights and Sounds
    Fmail for p/w for Specials
    Neredbojias, Aug 22, 2008
    #3
  4. DLU wrote:

    > Neredbojias wrote:
    > >On 20 Aug 2008, DLU <> wrote:
    > >
    > > > Just the same, I still have not found a way to move the bullets
    > > > (<li><a to the left as I would like to. I an not interpret the
    > > > CSS for the file to see if I could change the margin size there.

    > >
    > > To move list bullets left in general, try something like
    > >
    > > ul {
    > > margin:0;
    > > padding-left:1em;
    > > }
    > >
    > > ...in your css.
    > >

    > I have been spending hours trying to correct the great majority of
    > invalid codes. Some of them are things like the center command which
    > it tells me is not used any more, so I use the font center command
    > from the tool bar. Several others were for </li> which the validator
    > says I do not need as it is implicit in <li>.
    >
    > I still have a problem trying to understand where to put the alt in
    > with the <img=src. Every table has the corners expressed that way
    > and the validator says it has to have an alt with it. Will post this
    > later as some <img lines do not have that error.


    You can put the alt in just about anywhere inside the <img> tag, like
    this:
    <img src="imagefile.jpg" width="200" height="100" alt="text here" />
    or even:
    <img alt="text here" src="imagefile.jpg" />

    --
    Kim André Akerø
    -
    (remove NOSPAM to contact me directly)
    Kim André Akerø, Aug 22, 2008
    #4
  5. Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Kim André Akerø
    <> writing in news:6h7qhdFjgbn8U1
    @mid.individual.net:

    >> I still have a problem trying to understand where to put the alt in
    >> with the <img=src. Every table has the corners expressed that way
    >> and the validator says it has to have an alt with it. Will post this
    >> later as some <img lines do not have that error.


    I get the feeling that you are using sliced images in a table. Yes?
    There are other, better ways of doing this. This method is a nightmare
    to maintain. As to this particular issue, the alt attribute should be
    left blank if the image is for decorative purposes only, eg: <img
    src="topleft.png" alt="" height="10" width="10">

    >
    > You can put the alt in just about anywhere inside the <img> tag, like
    > this:
    ><img src="imagefile.jpg" width="200" height="100" alt="text here" />
    > or even:
    ><img alt="text here" src="imagefile.jpg" />
    >


    Height and width should always be expressed so that browser knows how
    much space to allocate for the image, once it is completely downloaded.

    The alt attribute should be a short description of the image, unless the
    image is for decorative purposes only, eg:
    <img src="catpaint.jpg" height="320" width="240" alt="Cat using paw to
    paint on refrigerator door">


    --
    Adrienne Boswell at Home
    Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    Adrienne Boswell, Aug 22, 2008
    #5
  6. Adrienne Boswell wrote:

    > Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Kim André Akerø
    > <> writing in news:6h7qhdFjgbn8U1
    > @mid.individual.net:
    >
    > >> I still have a problem trying to understand where to put the alt in
    > >> with the <img=src. Every table has the corners expressed that way
    > >> and the validator says it has to have an alt with it. Will post

    > this >> later as some <img lines do not have that error.
    >
    > I get the feeling that you are using sliced images in a table. Yes?
    > There are other, better ways of doing this. This method is a
    > nightmare to maintain. As to this particular issue, the alt
    > attribute should be left blank if the image is for decorative
    > purposes only, eg: <img src="topleft.png" alt="" height="10"
    > width="10">
    >
    > >
    > > You can put the alt in just about anywhere inside the <img> tag,
    > > like this:
    > > <img src="imagefile.jpg" width="200" height="100" alt="text here" />
    > > or even:
    > > <img alt="text here" src="imagefile.jpg" />
    > >

    >
    > Height and width should always be expressed so that browser knows how
    > much space to allocate for the image, once it is completely
    > downloaded.
    >
    > The alt attribute should be a short description of the image, unless
    > the image is for decorative purposes only, eg:
    > <img src="catpaint.jpg" height="320" width="240" alt="Cat using paw
    > to paint on refrigerator door">


    I always specify width and height myself. I just wanted to point out
    that these attributes don't have to be in any particular order inside
    the <img> tag.

    --
    Kim André Akerø
    -
    (remove NOSPAM to contact me directly)
    Kim André Akerø, Aug 22, 2008
    #6
  7. dorayme

    dorayme Guest

    In article <Xns9B023C4BDE65Farbpenyahoocom@69.16.185.247>,
    Adrienne Boswell <> wrote:

    > The alt attribute should be a short description of the image, unless the
    > image is for decorative purposes only, eg:
    > <img src="catpaint.jpg" height="320" width="240" alt="Cat using paw to
    > paint on refrigerator door">


    If it is a link to somewhere, some people use alt to inform where user
    goes if he clicks.

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Aug 22, 2008
    #7
  8. dorayme

    Bergamot Guest

    DLU wrote:
    >
    > I still have a problem trying to understand where to put the alt in with
    > the <img=src. Every table has the corners expressed that way and the
    > validator says it has to have an alt with it.


    If these are decorative images, use a blank alt, e.g.
    <img src="url" alt="">

    Use meaningful text on images that are part of the content. When in
    doubt, read the page out loud, substituting the alt text when you come
    to the image. Use what helps the page make sense. Sometimes blank text
    is the right choice.

    --
    Berg
    Bergamot, Aug 23, 2008
    #8
  9. dorayme

    dorayme Guest

    In article <>,
    DLU <> wrote:

    > Bergamot wrote:
    > > DLU wrote:
    > >> I still have a problem trying to understand where to put the alt in with
    > >> the <img=src. Every table has the corners expressed that way and the
    > >> validator says it has to have an alt with it.

    > >
    > > If these are decorative images, use a blank alt, e.g.
    > > <img src="url" alt="">
    > >
    > > Use meaningful text on images that are part of the content. When in
    > > doubt, read the page out loud, substituting the alt text when you come
    > > to the image. Use what helps the page make sense. Sometimes blank text
    > > is the right choice.
    > >

    > Thanks all for the help here. I am working on cleaning the site up. I
    > am surprised that the site I copied had many of these errors and the
    > webmaster did not catch them.
    > I got a message from him as one of the mailto: links was coming up 404
    > and he says that could be a dangerous situation. I found the problem
    > fortunately. I will be a couple of days cleaning the page up.
    >
    > dorayme has been particularly helpful, I sent him the URL with the
    > passwords. It is for an environmental organization, so hopefully most
    > of you like clean air and water.


    Me in particular, due to my constant swimming and attempts to catch
    Phelps. But there was a time that I used to prefer smoky environments,
    criminal situations and dirty everything. But, like William Munny in
    Unforgiven, I am not like that no more.

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Aug 23, 2008
    #9
  10. dorayme

    John Hosking Guest

    DLU wrote:
    > Thanks all for the help here. I am working on cleaning the site up. I
    > am surprised that the site I copied had many of these errors and the
    > webmaster did not catch them.
    > I got a message from him as one of the mailto: links was coming up 404


    This doesn't make sense to me. I don't know what you mean by it.

    > and he says that could be a dangerous situation.


    Likewise this. Do you mean that the mailto link won't be useful for
    those who don't have mail clients configured to make use of it. "A
    dangerous situation" sounds like your server might get hacked or something.

    --
    John
    Possessive "its" has no apostrophe. Even on the Internet.
    John Hosking, Aug 23, 2008
    #10
  11. dorayme

    dorayme Guest

    In article <48afcb29$>,
    John Hosking <> wrote:

    > Possessive "its" has no apostrophe. Even on the Internet.


    A minor quibble, ""its"'s" is a possessive "its" in a literal sense and
    might be used to refer to one instance of an "its" you refer to that
    should not have an apostrophe.

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Aug 23, 2008
    #11
  12. Gazing into my crystal ball I observed dorayme
    <> writing in
    news::

    > In article <Xns9B023C4BDE65Farbpenyahoocom@69.16.185.247>,
    > Adrienne Boswell <> wrote:
    >
    >> The alt attribute should be a short description of the image, unless
    >> the image is for decorative purposes only, eg:
    >> <img src="catpaint.jpg" height="320" width="240" alt="Cat using paw
    >> to paint on refrigerator door">

    >
    > If it is a link to somewhere, some people use alt to inform where user
    > goes if he clicks.
    >


    Yes, they do, and that's a good idea, especially if it's a menu, and the
    menu is composed of images.

    --
    Adrienne Boswell at Home
    Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    Adrienne Boswell, Aug 23, 2008
    #12
  13. dorayme

    John Hosking Guest

    Adrienne Boswell wrote:
    > Gazing into my crystal ball I observed dorayme
    > <> writing in
    > news::
    >
    >> In article <Xns9B023C4BDE65Farbpenyahoocom@69.16.185.247>,
    >> Adrienne Boswell <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> The alt attribute should be a short description of the image, unless
    >>> the image is for decorative purposes only, eg:
    >>> <img src="catpaint.jpg" height="320" width="240" alt="Cat using paw
    >>> to paint on refrigerator door">

    >> If it is a link to somewhere, some people use alt to inform where user
    >> goes if he clicks.
    >>


    Heh, well, some people use the toilet without washing their hands
    afterwards. Frequency doesn't equate to propriety.
    >
    > Yes, they do, and that's a good idea, especially if it's a menu, and the
    > menu is composed of images.
    >


    Now wait a minute. Why not use title to to inform where user goes if he
    clicks, and alt to describe the image?

    When images are present, the user can hover over the link/image, see the
    title text, and decide whether to click. The user doesn't need the alt
    text to describe the image, because the image itself is visible.

    When images are not displayed (or one is missing), the alt text is
    displayed instead. The user can hover over the link/alt text, see the
    title text, and decide whether to click.

    So I have to disagree with the "good idea" assessment. Unless the menu
    example means we're talking only about text-as-graphic links, in which
    case the alt text will probably end up being very similiar to the title
    text.

    --
    John
    Or are there current browsers which don't behave in the way I've desribed?
    John Hosking, Aug 23, 2008
    #13
  14. dorayme

    John Hosking Guest

    [OT]: Possessive its (Was: Unable to move bullets to left of table.)

    dorayme wrote:
    > In article <48afcb29$>, John Hosking wrote:
    >
    >> Possessive "its" has no apostrophe. Even on the Internet.

    >
    > A minor quibble, ""its"'s" is a possessive "its" in a literal sense and
    > might be used to refer to one instance of an "its" you refer to that
    > should not have an apostrophe.
    >


    Um.

    Okay, after many minutes of reading and re-reading your quibble, I think
    I have figured out a way of understanding it where you might not be
    totally insane.

    If I were talking about the vowels of various short words, I might point
    out that the vowel in "its" is an "i". I can say,

    Concerning the present word, its vowel is an 'i'. [Line 1]

    (Which actually sidesteps the issue while using a separate, imported
    "its".) Or, shorter, much nastier, and closer to your quibble,

    Its's vowel is an "i". [Line 2] or
    "Its"'s vowel is an "i". [Line 3]

    Parallel to (using other short words "and", "dog", and the possessive
    "dog's")

    And's vowel is an "a". [Line 4] or
    "And"'s vowel is an "a". [Line 5]
    Dog's vowel is an "o". [Line 6] or
    "Dog"'s vowel is an "o". [Line 7]
    Dog's's vowel is an "o". [Line 8] or
    "Dog's"'s vowel is an "o". [Line 9]

    But if I correctly understand your quibble, I can then say I disagree.

    First of all, we know when writing these improbable lines that they will
    be confusing, so it's best to avoid the confusion altogether and aim for
    non-possessive usages such as Line 1 above or my first form, rewritten
    here:

    The vowel in "its" is an "i". [Line 10]

    Secondly, the lack of quote marks makes Lines 2, 4, 6, and 8 simpler and
    easier to read, but harder to understand. So maybe the forms in 3, 5, 7,
    and 9 are better.

    You point (I believe) to the form in Line 3, suggesting that the
    apostrophe (you Australians call it something else, I think) shows
    ownership of something (a vowel, in my example) by the possessive "its"
    in my .sig line. But, my dear Martian, it's a different word.

    "Its"'s vowel

    refers to something different than

    "Its vowel"

    So I think you're not (definitively) insane, just wrong. ;-)

    What we've learned:

    A. Possessive "its" has no apostrophe.
    B. Possessive "its"'s has exactly one apostrophe.

    --
    John
    C. The possessive of the contraction, "it's"'s, has two apostrophes.
    D. I have to stop spending so much time on Usenet
    John Hosking, Aug 23, 2008
    #14
  15. dorayme

    Neredbojias Guest

    On 23 Aug 2008, John Hosking <> wrote:

    > Now wait a minute. Why not use title to to inform where user goes if he
    > clicks, and alt to describe the image?


    Oh, that would be just peachy...

    Alt text is there to serve as content when the element cannot be rendered
    normally. Describing a missing thumbnail would likely be useless.

    --
    Neredbojias
    http://www.neredbojias.net/
    Great Sights and Sounds
    http://adult.neredbojias.net/ (adult)
    Neredbojias, Aug 23, 2008
    #15
  16. Re: [OT]: Possessive its (Was: Unable to move bullets to left of table.)

    On 2008-08-23, John Hosking wrote:
    ....
    > Its's vowel is an "i". [Line 2] or


    So is it's vowel.

    --
    Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster <http://Woodbine-Gerrard.com>
    ===================================================================
    Author:
    Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
    Chris F.A. Johnson, Aug 23, 2008
    #16
  17. Re: [OT]: Possessive its (Was: Unable to move bullets to left oftable.)

    Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
    > On 2008-08-23, John Hosking wrote:
    > ...
    >> Its's vowel is an "i". [Line 2] or

    >
    > So is it's vowel.
    >


    So is it is vowel?

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
    Jonathan N. Little, Aug 23, 2008
    #17
  18. dorayme

    dorayme Guest

    In article <48b01b18$>,
    John Hosking <> wrote:

    > Adrienne Boswell wrote:
    > > Gazing into my crystal ball I observed dorayme
    > > <> writing in
    > > news::
    > >
    > >> In article <Xns9B023C4BDE65Farbpenyahoocom@69.16.185.247>,
    > >> Adrienne Boswell <> wrote:
    > >>
    > >>> The alt attribute should be a short description of the image, unless
    > >>> the image is for decorative purposes only, eg:
    > >>> <img src="catpaint.jpg" height="320" width="240" alt="Cat using paw
    > >>> to paint on refrigerator door">
    > >> If it is a link to somewhere, some people use alt to inform where user
    > >> goes if he clicks.
    > >>

    >
    > Heh, well, some people use the toilet without washing their hands
    > afterwards. Frequency doesn't equate to propriety.
    > >


    You can read it another way. Imagine your teenage boy coming out of the
    bathroom, his mates honking on the twin horns of their beat up jalopy
    urging him to hurry up. Your boy has been well brought up but in his
    haste he is clearly going to bypass some of the lessons your good wife
    and you have so carefully taught him. You are sitting there with your
    slippers on, a pipe, a newspaper and note the absence of that
    unmistakable hammering sound of the bathroom tap having been turned on
    (you must fix that before your wife returns from visiting her sister
    down the coast). You remark - you feel more obliged when your wife is
    away - out of the corner of your mouth so he can clearly hear: "Some
    people wash their hands after visiting the bathroom"

    > > Yes, they do, and that's a good idea, especially if it's a menu, and the
    > > menu is composed of images.
    > >

    >
    > Now wait a minute. Why not use title to to inform where user goes if he
    > clicks, and alt to describe the image?
    >


    One reason is that it is a pesky thing to have a bit of redundant text
    floating near the working image of text (you mention this possibility
    but seem a little inconclusive about it? So is it ok not to have a title
    here? Is it ok to just have "takes you back to main index" in alt
    here?).

    And remember, there are contexts and contexts. Imagine an image that
    also has a proper html text caption that is also a link to an
    enlargement. You make the thumbnail a link anyway to make it even easier
    for the user. No need to have a title floating in this situation. It
    would be overkill.

    Perhaps some people might have some purist distinctions in mind. If the
    image means nothing in itself, it may be some abstract shape that
    accompanies clear html text links and has been made into a link going
    same place as the accompanying text, they might urge a blank alt but a
    meaningful title? Again, overkill in this context. Yes, I know what the
    evangelical pursist might defend with... to not double up in the first
    place, to avoid this situation altogether...

    The truth is, John, this whole area is not as well defined as your post
    suggests. There is not some big general truth of the matter. There are
    intelligent responses to particular contexts. One of them is to have the
    alt text say something useful that does not describe the picture.

    > When images are present, the user can hover over the link/image, see the
    > title text, and decide whether to click. The user doesn't need the alt
    > text to describe the image, because the image itself is visible.
    >
    > When images are not displayed (or one is missing), the alt text is
    > displayed instead. The user can hover over the link/alt text, see the
    > title text, and decide whether to click.
    >
    > So I have to disagree with the "good idea" assessment. Unless the menu
    > example means we're talking only about text-as-graphic links, in which
    > case the alt text will probably end up being very similiar to the title
    > text.


    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Aug 23, 2008
    #18
  19. On 2008-08-23, dorayme wrote:
    ....
    > You can read it another way. Imagine your teenage boy coming out of the
    > bathroom, his mates honking on the twin horns of their beat up jalopy
    > urging him to hurry up. Your boy has been well brought up but in his
    > haste he is clearly going to bypass some of the lessons your good wife
    > and you have so carefully taught him. You are sitting there with your
    > slippers on, a pipe, a newspaper and note the absence of that
    > unmistakable hammering sound of the bathroom tap having been turned on
    > (you must fix that before your wife returns from visiting her sister
    > down the coast). You remark - you feel more obliged when your wife is
    > away - out of the corner of your mouth so he can clearly hear: "Some
    > people wash their hands after visiting the bathroom"


    To which he replied, "The rest don't pee on their hands."

    --
    Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster <http://Woodbine-Gerrard.com>
    ===================================================================
    Author:
    Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
    Chris F.A. Johnson, Aug 24, 2008
    #19
  20. Gazing into my crystal ball I observed John Hosking
    <> writing in
    news:48b01b18$:

    >>> Adrienne Boswell <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> The alt attribute should be a short description of the image,
    >>>> unless the image is for decorative purposes only, eg:
    >>>> <img src="catpaint.jpg" height="320" width="240" alt="Cat using paw
    >>>> to paint on refrigerator door">
    >>> If it is a link to somewhere, some people use alt to inform where
    >>> user goes if he clicks.
    >>>

    >
    > Heh, well, some people use the toilet without washing their hands
    > afterwards. Frequency doesn't equate to propriety.
    >>
    >> Yes, they do, and that's a good idea, especially if it's a menu, and
    >> the menu is composed of images.
    >>

    >
    > Now wait a minute. Why not use title to to inform where user goes if
    > he clicks, and alt to describe the image?
    >
    > When images are present, the user can hover over the link/image, see
    > the title text, and decide whether to click. The user doesn't need the
    > alt text to describe the image, because the image itself is visible.
    >
    > When images are not displayed (or one is missing), the alt text is
    > displayed instead. The user can hover over the link/alt text, see the
    > title text, and decide whether to click.
    >


    Your point is well taken, however, I have seen many sites that use
    images for menu items, and for one reason or another, the images are
    missing (or I have turned off image because the site is taking waaay too
    long to load - and I need to be there). Being able to see the alt text
    on a menu item is helpful.

    Or take this scenario - the text on the images (the text is part of the
    image), is hard to read. In that case, an alt attribute is handy (I
    turn images off).

    I agree that the title attribute should be included, but the alt
    attribute will render without any user action.

    --
    Adrienne Boswell at Home
    Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    Adrienne Boswell, Aug 24, 2008
    #20
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