Re: What should go in the alt paramater...

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Richard, Jul 24, 2003.

  1. Richard

    Richard Guest

    "EightNineThree" <> wrote in message
    news:bfnjkn$cps$...
    >
    > "Talc Ta Matt" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > >If alternative text will not contribute to the understanding of the

    > content,
    > > >then the alt attribute should be empty. (alt="")

    > >
    > > What exactly is the point of even including it then?

    >
    > Here's why:
    > http://karlcore.com/images/joe.jpg
    >
    > WTF do those images do? What does a blind person hear as their

    screenreader
    > goes over that page? How are they supposed to know what those images
    > depict? How are they supposed to know what images depict links? How are
    > they supposed to know where those links take them?
    >


    My sentiments on this thought is this, if a person has been blind his entire
    life, how can that person visualize what is supposed to be there to begin
    with?
    If the "alt" says "homer simpson", how does a person who has never seen an
    image of "homer simpson" visualize it? What if I am not referring to the
    cartoon character?

    Are we to design the sites for that very small percentage of users who may
    be visually impaired?
    No. We are to design sites which appease to those we want to attract to our
    sites.
    Of course we could design a specific site which is purely text for those who
    are visually impaired.
    But then, how does one go about making that version available on the home
    page?

    Quite frankly, some of the so called text readers in use today, leave a lot
    to be desired.
    Simply due to the fact that the English language has to many variables to
    contend with.
    I tried out two such readers and neither could distinguish between the noun
    "contents" or verb "contents".
    A simple word such as "read" is pronounce d as "re add".
    So would it read "reed" as "re ed"?
    Then how does the reader know the difference between what I want to read and
    that which I have read?
    Richard, Jul 24, 2003
    #1
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  2. While the city slept, Richard <anom@anom> feverishly typed:

    > "EightNineThree" <> wrote in
    > message news:bfnjkn$cps$...


    > My sentiments on this thought is this, if a person has been blind his
    > entire life, how can that person visualize what is supposed to be
    > there to begin with?
    > If the "alt" says "homer simpson", how does a person who has never
    > seen an image of "homer simpson" visualize it? What if I am not
    > referring to the cartoon character?


    You seem to be making the assumption that all blind people have been blind
    from birth, which is not the case. Your argument is invalid in any case, as
    alt text is supposed to be alternative text to replace the picture if it is
    not viewable - for whatever reason.

    > Are we to design the sites for that very small percentage of users
    > who may be visually impaired?


    Yes. It is perfectly simple to create a site which is visually appealing,
    and which satisfies accessibility requirements. If you are incapable of
    doing that, you are clearly in the wrong job.

    > Quite frankly, some of the so called text readers in use today, leave
    > a lot to be desired.


    You do make valid points here. But it is for the software manufacturers to
    produce decent readers, and it is for us to provide the content. Just as it
    is for the software manufacturers to produce browsers that adhere to the W3C
    specs, and for us to produce web documents based on the specs.

    > Simply due to the fact that the English language has to many
    > variables to contend with.
    > I tried out two such readers and neither could distinguish between
    > the noun "contents" or verb "contents".
    > A simple word such as "read" is pronounce d as "re add".
    > So would it read "reed" as "re ed"?


    You seem to have the Nottinghamshire version. ;-)

    > Then how does the reader know the difference between what I want to
    > read and that which I have read?


    This has been a problem with speech synthesisers for many years now, but
    they are getting better (I remember in the 80's having to provide text to a
    speech synthesiser phonetically). See my above comment on how the
    responsibility between software manufacturers and web designers is split.

    Cheers,
    Nige

    --
    Nigel Moss.

    Email address is not valid. . Take the dog out!
    http://www.nigenet.org.uk | Boycott E$$O!! http://www.stopesso.com
    "How strange the change from major to minor..."
    nice.guy.nige, Jul 24, 2003
    #2
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  3. While the city slept, jake <> feverishly
    typed:

    > In message <>, Richard
    > <anom@anom.?.invalid> writes

    [accessible versions of sites]
    >> But then, how does one go about making that version available on the
    >> home page?
    >> Via a link marked 'accessible version'.


    I'd imagine most of Richard's ilk prefer to label that link 'skip intro' ;-)

    Cheers,
    Nige

    --
    Nigel Moss.

    Email address is not valid. . Take the dog out!
    http://www.nigenet.org.uk | Boycott E$$O!! http://www.stopesso.com
    "How strange the change from major to minor..."
    nice.guy.nige, Jul 25, 2003
    #3
  4. In article <LpDkmueCbEI$>, jake wrote:
    > >Of course we could design a specific site which is purely text for those who
    > >are visually impaired.

    >
    > Not normally necessary if the site is designed with accessibility in
    > mind from the beginning. If an alternative site is really necessary ,
    > even then it doesn't have to be 'text only' -- just 'accessible'.


    And, remember that text-only is no way more accessible if it is same as
    normal version, exept that instead images there is text. I have seen this
    kind things.

    --
    Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
    Saapi lähettää meiliä, jos aihe ei liity ryhmään, tai on yksityinen
    tjsp., mutta älä lähetä samaa viestiä meilitse ja ryhmään.
    Lauri Raittila, Jul 25, 2003
    #4
  5. Richard

    Chris Morris Guest

    "Richard" <anom@anom> writes:
    > Are we to design the sites for that very small percentage of users
    > who may be visually impaired?


    RNIB estimates 1 in 30 in Britain are *to some degree*. That's not
    what I'd call a 'very small percentage'.

    > No. We are to design sites which appease to those we want to attract
    > to our sites.


    I want to attract 'people using the web'. It seems simpler than
    making arbitrary assumptions about what people are interested in
    and/or how much money they have purely on the basis of what browser
    they're using.

    > Of course we could design a specific site which is purely text for
    > those who are visually impaired.


    You could, but it'd be a bit silly when *every* non-text element in
    HTML has some mechanism to provide a text alternative for those
    situations where the non-text element is not possible to display.

    > But then, how does one go about making that version available on the
    > home page?


    Design accessibly and it can *be* the home page and Joe Internet
    Explorer User need never notice the difference.

    --
    Chris
    Chris Morris, Jul 25, 2003
    #5
  6. "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote:

    > <img alt="Homer Simpson" src="homer.png">
    >
    > You could also go and ask a blind person what he thinks about the
    > issue. Or read what organizations for the blind have said about it.


    Or visit http://images.google.com/images?q="Homer Simpson"

    --
    Meanwhile at the Google Ranch ...
    "I can't read this bloody site; it's all Falsh and JavaScrap."
    "Forget it and move on! Still 2 718 281 828 pages to crawl."
    Andreas Prilop, Jul 26, 2003
    #6
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