Re: Why not perfect alignment?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by C A Upsdell, Oct 25, 2009.

  1. C A Upsdell

    C A Upsdell Guest

    dorayme wrote:
    > Can't think of any good reason for the text not to be as crisp for both
    > *visible* paragraphs at:
    >
    > <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/alt/indexAlignment.html>
    >
    > Here is an even purer case:
    >
    > <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/alt/indexAlignment2.html>
    >
    > Notice that the background is not set (the phenomena is dependent on the
    > transparency of the backgrounds to the elements).
    >
    > It is mildly surprising that blurring occurs, that there is not perfect
    > registration.
    >
    > The only theory that comes to my mind does not *quite* satisfy me:
    > elements are on layers in a fluid which has a refractive index different
    > to a vacuum.


    Kind of looks like ClearType gone awry. If you disable ClearType, the
    problem disappears.
    C A Upsdell, Oct 25, 2009
    #1
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  2. C A Upsdell

    dorayme Guest

    In article <hc09pc$lo8$-september.org>,
    C A Upsdell <> wrote:

    > dorayme wrote:
    > > Can't think of any good reason for the text not to be as crisp for both
    > > *visible* paragraphs at:
    > >
    > > <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/alt/indexAlignment.html>
    > >
    > > Here is an even purer case:
    > >
    > > <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/alt/indexAlignment2.html>
    > >
    > > Notice that the background is not set (the phenomena is dependent on the
    > > transparency of the backgrounds to the elements).
    > >
    > > It is mildly surprising that blurring occurs, that there is not perfect
    > > registration.
    > >
    > > The only theory that comes to my mind does not *quite* satisfy me:
    > > elements are on layers in a fluid which has a refractive index different
    > > to a vacuum.

    >
    > Kind of looks like ClearType gone awry. If you disable ClearType, the
    > problem disappears.


    Interesting. I do not get any noticeable differences when I alter the
    font-smoothing settings in my Mac Tiger OS control panel but it may not
    kick in auto without restarting browsers or the whole machine which I
    have not yet fully tested.

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Oct 25, 2009
    #2
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  3. C A Upsdell

    C A Upsdell Guest

    dorayme wrote:
    > In article <hc09pc$lo8$-september.org>,
    > C A Upsdell <> wrote:
    >
    >> dorayme wrote:
    >>> Can't think of any good reason for the text not to be as crisp for both
    >>> *visible* paragraphs at:
    >>>
    >>> <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/alt/indexAlignment.html>
    >>>
    >>> Here is an even purer case:
    >>>
    >>> <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/alt/indexAlignment2.html>
    >>>
    >>> Notice that the background is not set (the phenomena is dependent on the
    >>> transparency of the backgrounds to the elements).
    >>>
    >>> It is mildly surprising that blurring occurs, that there is not perfect
    >>> registration.
    >>>
    >>> The only theory that comes to my mind does not *quite* satisfy me:
    >>> elements are on layers in a fluid which has a refractive index different
    >>> to a vacuum.

    >> Kind of looks like ClearType gone awry. If you disable ClearType, the
    >> problem disappears.

    >
    > Interesting. I do not get any noticeable differences when I alter the
    > font-smoothing settings in my Mac Tiger OS control panel but it may not
    > kick in auto without restarting browsers or the whole machine which I
    > have not yet fully tested.


    I have Windows XP with an LCD monitor. I don't know what you see when
    you view the pages you cited, but what I see with FF 3.5 is fat dark
    grey text with coloured fringes where you overlaid the text. Turning
    off ClearType immediately transformed the text to its normal appearance.
    C A Upsdell, Oct 25, 2009
    #3
  4. C A Upsdell

    dorayme Guest

    In article <hc17as$3ik$-september.org>,
    C A Upsdell <> wrote:

    > dorayme wrote:
    > > In article <hc09pc$lo8$-september.org>,
    > > C A Upsdell <> wrote:
    > >
    > >> dorayme wrote:
    > >>> Can't think of any good reason for the text not to be as crisp for both
    > >>> *visible* paragraphs at:
    > >>>
    > >>> <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/alt/indexAlignment.html>
    > >>>
    > >>> Here is an even purer case:
    > >>>
    > >>> <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/alt/indexAlignment2.html>
    > >>>
    > >>> Notice that the background is not set (the phenomena is dependent on the
    > >>> transparency of the backgrounds to the elements).
    > >>>
    > >>> It is mildly surprising that blurring occurs, that there is not perfect
    > >>> registration.
    > >>>

    ....
    > >> Kind of looks like ClearType gone awry. If you disable ClearType, the
    > >> problem disappears.

    > >
    > > Interesting. I do not get any noticeable differences when I alter the
    > > font-smoothing settings in my Mac Tiger OS control panel but it may not
    > > kick in auto without restarting browsers or the whole machine which I
    > > have not yet fully tested.

    >
    > I have Windows XP with an LCD monitor. I don't know what you see when
    > you view the pages you cited, but what I see with FF 3.5 is fat dark
    > grey text with coloured fringes where you overlaid the text. Turning
    > off ClearType immediately transformed the text to its normal appearance.


    OK, in indexAlignment.html above, you are getting *no difference*
    between the two visible paragraphs, I assume, when you turn off
    ClearType. And you are getting no difference between the visible
    paragraph in indexAlignment2.html and either para in indexAlignment.html.

    I am not getting *coloured* fringes (on any of my LCD displays) but that
    may simply be that I have monitors calibrated differently to you
    (probably less contrasty):

    <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/justPics/indexAlignment.png>

    and

    <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/justPics/indexAlignment2.png>>

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Oct 25, 2009
    #4
  5. C A Upsdell

    dorayme Guest

    In article <hc17as$3ik$-september.org>,
    C A Upsdell <> wrote:

    ....
    >
    > I have Windows XP with an LCD monitor. I don't know what you see when
    > you view the pages you cited, but what I see with FF 3.5 is fat dark
    > grey text with coloured fringes where you overlaid the text. Turning
    > off ClearType immediately transformed the text to its normal appearance.


    In fact, I did not test in my Opera 9.64. In Opera, there is no fringing
    or extra blackening. So, the browser is obviously some important factor.

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Oct 25, 2009
    #5
  6. C A Upsdell

    picayunish Guest

    dorayme wrote:
    > In article <hc17as$3ik$-september.org>,
    > C A Upsdell <> wrote:
    >
    >> dorayme wrote:
    >> > In article <hc09pc$lo8$-september.org>,
    >> > C A Upsdell <> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> dorayme wrote:
    >> >>> Can't think of any good reason for the text not to be as crisp for both
    >> >>> *visible* paragraphs at:
    >> >>>
    >> >>> <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/alt/indexAlignment.html>
    >> >>>
    >> >>> Here is an even purer case:
    >> >>>
    >> >>> <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/alt/indexAlignment2.html>
    >> >>>
    >> >>> Notice that the background is not set (the phenomena is dependent on the
    >> >>> transparency of the backgrounds to the elements).
    >> >>>
    >> >>> It is mildly surprising that blurring occurs, that there is not perfect
    >> >>> registration.
    >> >>>

    > ...
    >> >> Kind of looks like ClearType gone awry. If you disable ClearType, the
    >> >> problem disappears.
    >> >
    >> > Interesting. I do not get any noticeable differences when I alter the
    >> > font-smoothing settings in my Mac Tiger OS control panel but it may not
    >> > kick in auto without restarting browsers or the whole machine which I
    >> > have not yet fully tested.

    >>
    >> I have Windows XP with an LCD monitor. I don't know what you see when
    >> you view the pages you cited, but what I see with FF 3.5 is fat dark
    >> grey text with coloured fringes where you overlaid the text. Turning
    >> off ClearType immediately transformed the text to its normal appearance.

    >
    > OK, in indexAlignment.html above, you are getting *no difference*
    > between the two visible paragraphs, I assume, when you turn off
    > ClearType. And you are getting no difference between the visible
    > paragraph in indexAlignment2.html and either para in indexAlignment.html.
    >
    > I am not getting *coloured* fringes (on any of my LCD displays) but that
    > may simply be that I have monitors calibrated differently to you
    > (probably less contrasty):
    >
    > <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/justPics/indexAlignment.png>
    >
    > and
    >
    > <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/justPics/indexAlignment2.png>>


    This is what we see.
    http://www.evandervaart.nl/news/indexAlignment.png [1920x1080 205kB]
    --
    Edwin van der Vaart
    picayunish, Oct 25, 2009
    #6
  7. C A Upsdell

    C A Upsdell Guest

    dorayme wrote:
    > In article <hc17as$3ik$-september.org>,
    > C A Upsdell <> wrote:
    >
    > ...
    >> I have Windows XP with an LCD monitor. I don't know what you see when
    >> you view the pages you cited, but what I see with FF 3.5 is fat dark
    >> grey text with coloured fringes where you overlaid the text. Turning
    >> off ClearType immediately transformed the text to its normal appearance.

    >
    > In fact, I did not test in my Opera 9.64. In Opera, there is no fringing
    > or extra blackening. So, the browser is obviously some important factor.
    >


    tested in Opera 10 and Safari 4 (Windows). The overlaid text is darker,
    but crisp and without fringes. But this is likely something as simple
    as Opera and Safari not using the APIs which result in Windows ClearType
    being applied.
    C A Upsdell, Oct 25, 2009
    #7
  8. C A Upsdell

    dorayme Guest

    In article <99254$4ae43a23$4df973c8$>,
    picayunish <> wrote:

    >> >> dorayme wrote:
    >> >>> <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/alt/indexAlignment.html>
    >> >>> <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/alt/indexAlignment2.html>


    > This is what we see.
    > http://www.evandervaart.nl/news/indexAlignment.png [1920x1080 205kB]


    Looks to me your screen is way more contrasty than mine and that can get
    you the colours.

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Oct 25, 2009
    #8
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