Re: Why validate?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Denis McMahon, Dec 8, 2011.

  1. On Thu, 08 Dec 2011 01:46:06 -0800, Ganesh J Acharya wrote:

    > On Dec 8, 2:37 pm, "MG" <> wrote:
    >> "Ganesh J Acharya" <> wrote in
    >> messagenews:0e2ff83f-571c-4ce1-

    ...
    >> On Dec 8, 12:21 am, Ganesh J Acharya <> wrote:
    >>
    >> >> Wanted to discuss this one for a very long time.

    >>
    >> >> Why validate when most browsers ignore errors in an HTML, XHTML
    >> >> documents?
    >> > Why was
    >> > "/>" instead of ">".

    >>
    >> > introduced?

    >>
    >> One is xhtml (for a limited number of elements).
    >>
    >> The other is html

    >
    > This reference says
    >
    > http://www.personal.psu.edu/v23/presentations/accessibility/20errors/

    standards_errors.html#error8
    > "HTML 4.01 and XHTML require that all tags have end tags, including tags
    > like <br> (which would be <br /> - starting and closing in the same
    > tag)."


    I think you'll find that the reference is not in agreement with the html
    4.01 standard.

    Html 4.01 does not require the "<br />" style closing tag. If your
    reference says it does, you need to find a better reference.

    Rgds

    Denis McMahon
     
    Denis McMahon, Dec 8, 2011
    #1
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  2. On Dec 8, 4:02 pm, Denis McMahon <> wrote:
    > On Thu, 08 Dec 2011 01:46:06 -0800, Ganesh J Acharya wrote:
    > > On Dec 8, 2:37 pm, "MG" <> wrote:
    > >> "Ganesh J Acharya" <> wrote in
    > >> messagenews:0e2ff83f-571c-4ce1-

    >
    > ...
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >> On Dec 8, 12:21 am, Ganesh J Acharya <> wrote:

    >
    > >> >> Wanted to discuss this one for a very long time.

    >
    > >> >> Why validate when most browsers ignore errors in an HTML, XHTML
    > >> >> documents?
    > >> > Why was
    > >> > "/>" instead of ">".

    >
    > >> > introduced?

    >
    > >> One is xhtml (for a limited number of elements).

    >
    > >> The other is html

    >
    > > This reference says

    >
    > >http://www.personal.psu.edu/v23/presentations/accessibility/20errors/

    >
    > standards_errors.html#error8
    >
    > > "HTML 4.01 and XHTML require that all tags have end tags, including tags
    > > like <br> (which would be <br /> - starting and closing in the same
    > > tag)."

    >
    > I think you'll find that the reference is not in agreement with the html
    > 4.01 standard.
    >
    > Html 4.01 does not require the "<br />" style closing tag. If your
    > reference says it does, you need to find a better reference.
    >


    Thanks for the clarification
     
    Ganesh J Acharya, Dec 8, 2011
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. On Thu, 08 Dec 2011 03:43:49 -0800, Ganesh J Acharya wrote:

    >> > This reference says

    >>
    >> >http://www.personal.psu.edu/v23/presentations/accessibility/20errors/

    >>
    >> standards_errors.html#error8
    >>
    >> > "HTML 4.01 and XHTML require that all tags have end tags, including
    >> > tags like <br> (which would be <br /> - starting and closing in the
    >> > same tag)."

    >>
    >> I think you'll find that the reference is not in agreement with the
    >> html 4.01 standard.
    >>
    >> Html 4.01 does not require the "<br />" style closing tag. If your
    >> reference says it does, you need to find a better reference.


    > Thanks for the clarification


    p.s. My reference for HTML 4.01 is:

    http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/

    Here is a quote from section 3.2.1 of that document concerning the
    general requirements for start and end tags:

    "Some HTML element types allow authors to omit end tags (e.g., the P and
    LI element types). A few element types also allow the start tags to be
    omitted; for example, HEAD and BODY. The HTML DTD indicates for each
    element type whether the start tag and end tag are required."

    Contrast this with XHTML 1.0 as stated in section 4.3 of http://
    www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#diffs

    "In SGML-based HTML 4 certain elements were permitted to omit the end
    tag; with the elements that followed implying closure. XML does not allow
    end tags to be omitted. All elements other than those declared in the DTD
    as EMPTY must have an end tag. Elements that are declared in the DTD as
    EMPTY can have an end tag or can use empty element shorthand (see Empty
    Elements)."

    Thus html 4.01 can omit certain closing tags, but xhtml 1.0 can not. Nor
    can xhtml 1.1 (but if you want the reference for that, you can look it up
    yourself, there's a limit to how much spoon feeding of baby I'm prepared
    to do, and before you object to that turn of phrase, you're the one who
    is using some arbitrary website instead of w3.org as a reference, not me).

    Rgds

    Denis McMahon
     
    Denis McMahon, Dec 8, 2011
    #3
  4. On Dec 8, 8:30 pm, Denis McMahon <> wrote:
    > On Thu, 08 Dec 2011 03:43:49 -0800, Ganesh J Acharya wrote:
    > >> > This reference says

    >
    > >> >http://www.personal.psu.edu/v23/presentations/accessibility/20errors/

    >
    > >> standards_errors.html#error8

    >
    > >> > "HTML 4.01 and XHTML require that all tags have end tags, including
    > >> > tags like <br> (which would be <br /> - starting and closing in the
    > >> > same tag)."

    >
    > >> I think you'll find that the reference is not in agreement with the
    > >> html 4.01 standard.

    >
    > >> Html 4.01 does not require the "<br />" style closing tag. If your
    > >> reference says it does, you need to find a better reference.

    > > Thanks for the clarification

    >
    > p.s. My reference for HTML 4.01 is:
    >
    > http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/
    >
    > Here is a quote from section 3.2.1 of that document concerning the
    > general requirements for start and end tags:
    >
    > "Some HTML element types allow authors to omit end tags (e.g., the P and
    > LI element types). A few element types also allow the start tags to be
    > omitted; for example, HEAD and BODY. The HTML DTD indicates for each
    > element type whether the start tag and end tag are required."
    >
    > Contrast this with XHTML 1.0 as stated in section 4.3 of http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#diffs
    >
    > "In SGML-based HTML 4 certain elements were permitted to omit the end
    > tag; with the elements that followed implying closure. XML does not allow
    > end tags to be omitted. All elements other than those declared in the DTD
    > as EMPTY must have an end tag. Elements that are declared in the DTD as
    > EMPTY can have an end tag or can use empty element shorthand (see Empty
    > Elements)."
    >
    > Thus html 4.01 can omit certain closing tags


    Regarding 4.6. Empty Elements
    <br/><hr/>

    Under http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#guidelines
    It says "for authors who wish their XHTML documents to render on
    existing HTML user agents."... "Include a space before the trailing /
    and > of empty elements"

    to make them
    <br />, <hr />

    Can someone kindly clarify this?
     
    Ganesh J Acharya, Dec 8, 2011
    #4
  5. On Thu, 08 Dec 2011 09:38:54 -0800, Ganesh J Acharya wrote:

    > On Dec 8, 8:30 pm, Denis McMahon <> wrote:
    >> On Thu, 08 Dec 2011 03:43:49 -0800, Ganesh J Acharya wrote:
    >> >> > This reference says

    >>
    >> >> >http://www.personal.psu.edu/v23/presentations/

    accessibility/20errors/
    >>
    >> >> standards_errors.html#error8

    >>
    >> >> > "HTML 4.01 and XHTML require that all tags have end tags,
    >> >> > including tags like <br> (which would be <br /> - starting and
    >> >> > closing in the same tag)."

    >>
    >> >> I think you'll find that the reference is not in agreement with the
    >> >> html 4.01 standard.

    >>
    >> >> Html 4.01 does not require the "<br />" style closing tag. If your
    >> >> reference says it does, you need to find a better reference.
    >> > Thanks for the clarification

    >>
    >> p.s. My reference for HTML 4.01 is:
    >>
    >> http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/
    >>
    >> Here is a quote from section 3.2.1 of that document concerning the
    >> general requirements for start and end tags:
    >>
    >> "Some HTML element types allow authors to omit end tags (e.g., the P
    >> and LI element types). A few element types also allow the start tags to
    >> be omitted; for example, HEAD and BODY. The HTML DTD indicates for each
    >> element type whether the start tag and end tag are required."
    >>
    >> Contrast this with XHTML 1.0 as stated in section 4.3 of
    >> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#diffs
    >>
    >> "In SGML-based HTML 4 certain elements were permitted to omit the end
    >> tag; with the elements that followed implying closure. XML does not
    >> allow end tags to be omitted. All elements other than those declared in
    >> the DTD as EMPTY must have an end tag. Elements that are declared in
    >> the DTD as EMPTY can have an end tag or can use empty element shorthand
    >> (see Empty Elements)."
    >>
    >> Thus html 4.01 can omit certain closing tags

    >
    > Regarding 4.6. Empty Elements
    > <br/><hr/>
    >
    > Under http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#guidelines It says "for authors who
    > wish their XHTML documents to render on existing HTML user agents."...
    > "Include a space before the trailing / and > of empty elements"
    >
    > to make them
    > <br />, <hr />
    >
    > Can someone kindly clarify this?


    Clarify what? You're responding to my comments on html 4.01 by quoting
    the xhtml 1.0 document - these are DIFFERENT SPECIFICATIONS FOR MARKUP -
    a web page should follow one or the other, not a mixture of the two (or
    more).

    There are several different standards, specifications and
    recommendations, including html 2.0, html 3.2, html 4.01, xhtml 1.0, xhtml
    1.1, html 5. Some of these are considered "mature", some are felt to be
    dead ends in the development process, and some of these are still under
    development.

    Any web page should be written to be compliant with one, and only, of
    these documents, and should specify for maximum compatibility the one
    that it complies with using the doctype declaration.

    If you don't yet understand this, you have no place being involved in web
    site design or implementation at any level whatsoever!

    A web page should not, for example, be written with a mixture of html
    4.01 and xhtml 1.0 elements.

    Rgds

    Denis McMahon
     
    Denis McMahon, Dec 8, 2011
    #5
  6. On Dec 9, 2:56 am, Denis McMahon <> wrote:
    > On Thu, 08 Dec 2011 09:38:54 -0800, Ganesh J Acharya wrote:
    > > On Dec 8, 8:30 pm, Denis McMahon <> wrote:
    > >> On Thu, 08 Dec 2011 03:43:49 -0800, Ganesh J Acharya wrote:
    > >> >> > This reference says

    >
    > >> >> >http://www.personal.psu.edu/v23/presentations/

    >
    > accessibility/20errors/
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >> >> standards_errors.html#error8

    >
    > >> >> > "HTML 4.01 and XHTML require that all tags have end tags,
    > >> >> > including tags like <br> (which would be <br /> - starting and
    > >> >> > closing in the same tag)."

    >
    > >> >> I think you'll find that the reference is not in agreement with the
    > >> >> html 4.01 standard.

    >
    > >> >> Html 4.01 does not require the "<br />" style closing tag. If your
    > >> >> reference says it does, you need to find a better reference.
    > >> > Thanks for the clarification

    >
    > >> p.s. My reference for HTML 4.01 is:

    >
    > >>http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/

    >
    > >> Here is a quote from section 3.2.1 of that document concerning the
    > >> general requirements for start and end tags:

    >
    > >> "Some HTML element types allow authors to omit end tags (e.g., the P
    > >> and LI element types). A few element types also allow the start tags to
    > >> be omitted; for example, HEAD and BODY. The HTML DTD indicates for each
    > >> element type whether the start tag and end tag are required."

    >
    > >> Contrast this with XHTML 1.0 as stated in section 4.3 of
    > >>http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#diffs

    >
    > >> "In SGML-based HTML 4 certain elements were permitted to omit the end
    > >> tag; with the elements that followed implying closure. XML does not
    > >> allow end tags to be omitted. All elements other than those declared in
    > >> the DTD as EMPTY must have an end tag. Elements that are declared in
    > >> the DTD as EMPTY can have an end tag or can use empty element shorthand
    > >> (see Empty Elements)."

    >
    > >> Thus html 4.01 can omit certain closing tags

    >
    > > Regarding 4.6. Empty Elements
    > > <br/><hr/>

    >
    > > Underhttp://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#guidelinesIt says "for authors who
    > > wish their XHTML documents to render on existing HTML user agents."...
    > > "Include a space before the trailing / and > of empty elements"

    >
    > > to make them
    > > <br />, <hr />

    >
    > > Can someone kindly clarify this?

    >
    > Clarify what? You're responding to my comments on html 4.01 by quoting
    > the xhtml 1.0 document - these are DIFFERENT SPECIFICATIONS FOR MARKUP -
    > a web page should follow one or the other, not a mixture of the two (or
    > more).
    >
    > There are several different standards, specifications and
    > recommendations, including html 2.0, html 3.2, html 4.01, xhtml 1.0, xhtml
    > 1.1, html 5. Some of these are considered "mature", some are felt to be
    > dead ends in the development process, and some of these are still under
    > development.
    >
    > Any web page should be written to be compliant with one, and only, of
    > these documents, and should specify for maximum compatibility the one
    > that it complies with using the doctype declaration.
    >
    > If you don't yet understand this, you have no place being involved in web
    > site design or implementation at any level whatsoever!
    >
    > A web page should not, for example, be written with a mixture of html
    > 4.01 and xhtml 1.0 elements.


    ok, what happens otherwise?
     
    Ganesh J Acharya, Dec 10, 2011
    #6
  7. On Fri, 09 Dec 2011 20:54:29 -0800, Ganesh J Acharya wrote:

    >> A web page should not, for example, be written with a mixture of html
    >> 4.01 and xhtml 1.0 elements.

    >
    > ok, what happens otherwise?


    This has already been answered. If you still don't understand it, then
    there's no point my trying to further explain it.

    Rgds

    Denis McMahon
     
    Denis McMahon, Dec 10, 2011
    #7
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