Re: WxPython versus Tkinter.

Discussion in 'Python' started by Littlefield, Tyler, Jan 25, 2011.

  1. >Wow! I, I, I, I... is there a sentence that doesn't talk about your
    self interests?
    It is clear you have been taking lessons from RR; the word I does not
    convey self interest, in fact, it is the best word suited to speaking of
    oppinions (which is all that these are), in the first person. Lets move
    on, shall we?
    >You haven't downloaded any inaccessible program made with Tkinter, you

    didn't have any problems, You can create an accessible program if you
    can't find
    >an accessible one, you care only to please the other for working with

    you and so on.
    No. I said, I can find a program that is accessible, if I find one that
    isn't. Totally different from making one, and any user at all has said
    power. Granted, there are conditions where this doesn't work, but my
    idea of -fixing- TKInter would solve a lot of problems.
    >Don't you care that most programmers don't know about accessibility

    and they just don't create accessible programs not because they don't
    want, but because
    >they don't know about this thing?

    Of course I do. Non accessibility hurts you, as much as me, as much as
    anyone else when I have to take time away to try to make a program
    accessible. But, here is the thing; I have suggested work on TKInter to
    make such programs accessible, and I am perfectly willing to
    participate, as much as time allows, in such work. You are trying to
    make me come across as some evil cruel person because I don't submit to
    "hit them over the head with the hammer that is the ADA and force
    compliance," but rather I want to work with someone. At the end of the
    day, you lose, I win in general. People have made comments about the
    fact that all you did was parrot the evilness of TKInter to many
    threads, and now you've made comments on laws in existance that will
    help us. If you will note, no one even blinked at said laws. Now, the
    idea of fixing the problem (and not just switching libraries out of the
    STDLib, because as Ixokai already pointed out in another post, that
    won't happen), will get us much farther; whether or not Python, or
    anything else uses TKInter, it will be accessible, with some work put
    into talking to the community and I'll probably jump in the trenches
    myself and hammer out some code.
    >Retorical question... It is obviously that you don't care.

    Nope. I, as a blind person obviously don't care. Which is why I've spent
    so much time trying to push the idea of fixing TKInter. what a horrible
    horrible person I am.
    >Ok, you don't care. There are very many like you. But do you think

    that this is the right atitude? To not care about the >others at all but
    only about your selfish interests because the alternative is a loss of
    time?
    A loss of time? Where. I am not a proponent of forcing a lib into the
    STDLib while said library currently has problems (RR's segfaults, I'm
    "looking" at you). I know and accept the fact that Python is not going
    to become unstable with a library, in the hopes that some day people
    will start using wx since it's just there and voila, everything will be
    peaches and cream for us screen-reader using folks.
    >Can't you see that this isn't normal? Can't you see that some people

    don't even believe you that you are blind but you >still promote the
    non-accessible programs?
    RR's non-belief of me being blind or otherwise was to help his own
    argument, not because I'm promoting anything.
    >But there could be an explanation for this too. You might look great

    in your gang if the other blind people you know are >not able to use
    some programs but you are able to create your own which are accessible.
    You will appear really special.
    Yep. I'm talking about fixing a library to be more accessible so I can
    look great in my "gang" of sighted people I try so hard to blend in
    with, by daring to use such words as "watch."

    You mentioned the millions of people that I may help by quoting
    accessibility laws at, and here I say, you over estimate your self
    importance. If I went into my school and started yelling about the ADA,
    I would possibly get somewhere, but they would end up doing the bear
    minimum in order to comply with such laws. As a result, I don't really
    get what I want, and someone walks away from the encounter with the idea
    that all the blind people are the same, which may be a problem for
    someone who wishes to get employed.

    Now, on the other hand, if I were to walk into somewhere, say "hey, this
    is really unaccessible, and this is how we can fix it," from my
    experience, 9 times out of ten it will get fixed. That other 10% is
    where the ADA and other such laws come in. Through this encounter,
    someone walks away with a lot more respect for me, and if something
    should come up later, I can generally go talk to them.

    You have this "pity me," "I don't want to be a part of the sighted
    community," attitude, which will get you nowhere. If you limit yourself
    (by not doing such things as watching tv, or using phones with
    touchpads), that is -your- own fault, and no one elses. I say this
    because I used to be the same way, and I can garentee, if you give it
    time and start being a lot different with people, rather than just
    promoting your ADA laws and hiding behind your wall you've put up to
    save you from having to deal with things, you will be much happier. My
    preaching done with, I'd like to urge everyone to put this in a bit of
    perspective; essentially, what I don't want is someone walking away with
    Octavian's attitude as a stariotype for us all.
     
    Littlefield, Tyler, Jan 25, 2011
    #1
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  2. Littlefield, Tyler

    rantingrick Guest

    On Jan 25, 9:13 am, Nicholas Devenish <> wrote:

    > I think even more damaging to any python newcomers than choosing the
    > 'wrong' gui toolkit would be stumbling across this thread whilst looking
    > for a toolkit; and thinking some of the behaviour here was
    > representative of the python (or wx) community as a whole, which
    > couldn't be further from the truth. I know that if I had found this
    > thread when looking around I would certainly have been put off of wx
    > (which is the toolkit I decided on when looking around).


    Well then that would show how shallow and jealous you are. It would
    also show how you have no ability to think for yourself. That you are
    an emotional creature who refuses to use reason and logic in your
    decision process. Stop jumping on the troll wagon and start thinking
    for yourself!
     
    rantingrick, Jan 25, 2011
    #2
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  3. Littlefield, Tyler

    CM Guest

    On Jan 25, 10:13 am, Nicholas Devenish <> wrote:

    Nicholas,

    > I think even more damaging to any python newcomers than choosing the
    > 'wrong' gui toolkit would be stumbling across this thread whilst looking
    > for a toolkit; and thinking some of the behaviour here was
    > representative of the python (or wx) community as a whole, which
    > couldn't be further from the truth. I know that if I had found this
    > thread when looking around I would certainly have been put off of wx
    > (which is the toolkit I decided on when looking around).


    I don't know--you sound too reasonable to extrapolate from this goofy
    thread to a huge toolkit project that has been around for years and is
    used in project such as Audacity (that's the wxWidgets version, but
    close enough). But yes, it almost at times seemed like--from what I
    could manage to read--this thread was a "psy-ops" (psychological
    operations) trick to turn off wxPython adopters by associating it with
    juvenile nonsense, and yes, on a quick scan it could turn people
    off.

    Which would be a shame, because, as you, Andrea, and others have
    noted, wxPython is a nice toolkit. For those interested, download it
    and make sure to download the Demo, that shows what can be done with
    it. (Very early in this discussion the screenshots on the website
    came up; they are horrifically out of date and wxPython deserves
    better and looks great on, say, Windows 7 or Ubuntu....well, it looks
    native, and that's the point).

    > Perhaps there is room for a balanced, adult discussion on the future of
    > GUI toolkits in python; But I don't believe that this can happen here
    > without substantial changes to a certain persons attitudes (or other
    > peoples kill files).


    It would be more likely that wxPython would be in the stdlib than
    those attitudes will change. :D

    But what I would enjoy is a discussion about GUIs in terms of "develop
    once, deploy many". For example, pyjamas, since I think being able to
    develop one GUI that works as desktop or web-based is kind of
    exciting. Unfortunately, it seems it is far off from anything easily
    usable at this point. Part of that might be it doesn't have a big
    enough community of developers yet. It's also just really difficult,
    I'm sure.

    Another interesting issue in this is mobile phone app development. It
    is frustrating to devote a lot of time to learning a desktop widget
    toolkit and Python and while that is occurring the culture moves more
    and more toward app use in which that is not too applicable. Some of
    that cannot be helped if Apple, e.g., restricts what can be used on
    their phones. I guess for Android one can already develop with PyQt
    and it will run on desktop or phone?
     
    CM, Jan 25, 2011
    #3
  4. On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 11:16 AM, CM <> wrote:

    > Another interesting issue in this is mobile phone app development.  It
    > is frustrating to devote a lot of time to learning a desktop widget
    > toolkit and Python and while that is occurring the culture moves more
    > and more toward app use in which that is not too applicable.  Some of
    > that cannot be helped if Apple, e.g., restricts what can be used on
    > their phones.  I guess for Android one can already develop with PyQt
    > and it will run on desktop or phone?


    No. It's very difficult to do real development on android unless
    you're using Java, and even if that weren't the case Qt itself would
    require an enormous effort to port. Perhaps you meant MeeGo?

    Geremy Condra
     
    geremy condra, Jan 25, 2011
    #4
  5. Littlefield, Tyler

    CM Guest

    On Jan 25, 2:33 pm, geremy condra <> wrote:
    > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 11:16 AM, CM <> wrote:
    > > Another interesting issue in this is mobile phone app development.  It
    > > is frustrating to devote a lot of time to learning a desktop widget
    > > toolkit and Python and while that is occurring the culture moves more
    > > and more toward app use in which that is not too applicable.  Some of
    > > that cannot be helped if Apple, e.g., restricts what can be used on
    > > their phones.  I guess for Android one can already develop with PyQt
    > > and it will run on desktop or phone?

    >
    > No. It's very difficult to do real development on android unless
    > you're using Java, and even if that weren't the case Qt itself would
    > require an enormous effort to port. Perhaps you meant MeeGo?


    I think insted of Android I should have said "Nokia phones". Is that
    closer? I am completely out of the mobile phones loop, so I have no
    sense of any of this. What is MeeGo?

    At this point, can Python be used for app development on any mobile
    phone (realistically)?

    Thanks.
     
    CM, Jan 25, 2011
    #5
  6. On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 11:40 AM, CM <> wrote:
    > On Jan 25, 2:33 pm, geremy condra <> wrote:
    >> On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 11:16 AM, CM <> wrote:
    >> > I guess for Android one can already develop with PyQt
    >> > and it will run on desktop or phone?

    >>
    >> No. It's very difficult to do real development on android unless
    >> you're using Java, and even if that weren't the case Qt itself would
    >> require an enormous effort to port. Perhaps you meant MeeGo?

    >
    > I think insted of Android I should have said "Nokia phones".  Is that
    > closer?  I am completely out of the mobile phones loop, so I have no
    > sense of any of this.  What is MeeGo?


    MeeGo is Nokia's next generation mobile OS, and Symbian is its current one.

    > At this point, can Python be used for app development on any mobile
    > phone (realistically)?


    Python development on either Symbian or MeeGo is reasonably painless.

    Geremy Condra
     
    geremy condra, Jan 25, 2011
    #6
  7. On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 11:24 AM, Octavian Rasnita <> wrote:

    > Yes, I know, that's life, which is not right, that's faith, bla bla, but it doesn't mean that my atitude need to be changed.


    There's a difference between having an opinion and having an attitude.
    You have both, and it doesn't do you a lot of favors.

    Geremy Condra
     
    geremy condra, Jan 25, 2011
    #7
  8. Littlefield, Tyler

    rantingrick Guest

    On Jan 25, 1:40 pm, CM <> wrote:

    > At this point, can Python be used for app development on any mobile
    > phone (realistically)?


    No as long as Tkinter is in the stdlib (if your talking stdlib?)
     
    rantingrick, Jan 25, 2011
    #8
  9. Littlefield, Tyler

    rantingrick Guest

    On Jan 25, 2:01 pm, geremy condra <> wrote:
    > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 11:24 AM, Octavian Rasnita <> wrote:
    > > Yes, I know, that's life, which is not right, that's faith, bla bla, but it doesn't mean that my atitude need to be changed.

    >
    > There's a difference between having an opinion and having an attitude.
    > You have both, and it doesn't do you a lot of favors.


    There is likewise a difference between reading someones words
    (objectively) uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices, or not.
    You understand?
     
    rantingrick, Jan 25, 2011
    #9

  10. > this thread was a "psy-ops" (psychological

    operations) trick to turn off wxPython adopters by associating it with
    juvenile nonsense

    Do you think the need for accessibility is a nonsense?
    Or do you think it is something juvenile?


    Octavian
     
    Octavian Rasnita, Jan 25, 2011
    #10
  11. From: "geremy condra" <>
    > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 11:24 AM, Octavian Rasnita <> wrote:
    >
    >> Yes, I know, that's life, which is not right, that's faith, bla bla, but it doesn't mean that my atitude need to be changed.

    >
    > There's a difference between having an opinion and having an attitude.
    > You have both, and it doesn't do you a lot of favors.



    I don't understand. Please be more clear.
    Have I said something wrong? Did I use bad words? Or what was it wrong?
    I have just an opinion, but that opinion won't change until the opinion of those who pretend that the discrimination is something normal.
    Do you think that this is not normal?

    Or you recommend me to be just like Tyler that can't use all the apps he could use if they were accessible, but he doesn't care because he cares much more to play nice in order to be accepted in this not-right society?

    Octavian
     
    Octavian Rasnita, Jan 25, 2011
    #11
  12. On 01/25/2011 03:55 PM, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
    >
    >> this thread was a "psy-ops" (psychological
    >> operations) trick to turn off wxPython adopters by associating it with
    >> juvenile nonsense

    >
    > Do you think the need for accessibility is a nonsense?
    > Or do you think it is something juvenile?
    >
    >
    > Octavian
    >


    Do you honestly think he was talking about the accessibility problem?
    IMO that should move to another thread, because this one is simply
    about, as the subject suggests, "WxPython versus Tkinter".
     
    Corey Richardson, Jan 25, 2011
    #12
  13. On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Octavian Rasnita <> wrote:
    > From: "geremy condra" <>
    >> On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 11:24 AM, Octavian Rasnita <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Yes, I know, that's life, which is not right, that's faith, bla bla, but it doesn't mean that my atitude need to be changed.

    >>
    >> There's a difference between having an opinion and having an attitude.
    >> You have both, and it doesn't do you a lot of favors.

    >
    >
    > I don't understand. Please be more clear.


    There's a difference between what you say and how you say it. If a
    friend came up to you and said "give me $100 right now!", you probably
    wouldn't do it. If the same friend came up to you and said "I know
    this is a big thing to ask, but I really need $100 and I can't
    guarantee I'll be able to pay you back. Could you please help me?" I
    don't know very many people who would refuse if they were able to
    help. The reason is simple: the first does not acknowledge the value
    of the person doing the favor, and the second does.

    More concretely, you have an opinion that not supporting accessibility
    is discrimination. Tyler has an opinion that not supporting
    accessibility is a bug. Are you going to demand that he change his
    opinion? Or are you going to ask that he consider yours?

    > Have I said something wrong? Did I use bad words? Or what was it wrong?


    I think it was uncivil. It was rude, unkind, and generally
    disagreeable. I lost respect for you, and by proxy, for your point of
    view. In other words, you lost support not because fewer people agree
    with your position, but because fewer people want to agree with you.

    > I have just an opinion, but that opinion won't change until the opinion of those who pretend that the discrimination is something normal.
    > Do you think that this is not normal?


    I didn't ask you to change your opinion. I told you that you would be
    more effective if you changed your attitude. Like rantingrick, you're
    free to ignore that advice, but it is good advice for both you and the
    community, and I urge you to take it.

    > Or you recommend me to be just like Tyler that can't use all the apps he could use if they were accessible, but he doesn't care because he cares much more to play nice in order to be accepted in this not-right society?


    I would recommend that you learn to be civil to those you disagree
    with. The alternative is to be surrounded by them.

    Geremy Condra
     
    geremy condra, Jan 25, 2011
    #13
  14. Littlefield, Tyler

    rantingrick Guest

    On Jan 25, 3:41 pm, Corey Richardson <> wrote:

    > Do you honestly think he was talking about the accessibility problem?
    > IMO that should move to another thread, because this one is simply
    > about, as the subject suggests, "WxPython versus Tkinter".


    Corey again (like many) you lack a global perspective. Anybody who has
    read along with his thread knows we are covering some pretty big
    issues here. WxPython is just the vehicle. The big picture is simply:
    Tkinter is old and in many ways insufficient for 21st century GUIs. We
    need to decide what should come next. I believe wxPython is our best
    hope. Wx may not be the best it can be, but it is the best we have at
    this time. There is more than "meets the eye" Corey!
     
    rantingrick, Jan 25, 2011
    #14
  15. Littlefield, Tyler

    rantingrick Guest

    On Jan 25, 4:45 pm, Nicholas Devenish <> wrote:

    > But this thread is not about that, and the accessibility issue is mostly
    > a red herring that rantingrick has grabbed hold of to swing around like
    > a battleaxe, because nobody is going to say that accessibility doesn't
    > matter.


    Stop trying to exacerbate the situation Nick. You are one of the folks
    that has no fact based arguments to present so now you are plating the
    victim of my fact based argument. You are losing, and losing sucks!
    Stop trying to gain ground simply by hiding facts from the voters.
    Losers hate fact, because a fact based argument will dissolve BS
    faster than the speed of light. Get off the troll wagon and start
    contributing to the discussion in a positive way.
     
    rantingrick, Jan 25, 2011
    #15
  16. Littlefield, Tyler

    rantingrick Guest

    On Jan 25, 4:55 pm, geremy condra <> wrote:

    > There's a difference between what you say and how you say it. If a
    > friend came up to you and said "give me $100 right now!", you probably
    > wouldn't do it.


    What if someone was extorting him and he really needed the money
    "right now"?

    > If the same friend came up to you and said "I know
    > this is a big thing to ask, but I really need $100 and I can't
    > guarantee I'll be able to pay you back. Could you please help me?" I
    > don't know very many people who would refuse if they were able to
    > help. The reason is simple: the first does not acknowledge the value
    > of the person doing the favor, and the second does.


    No i see what this is about. YOU ARE PART OF THE ELITE and WE are part
    of the piss on peasants. We need to grovel at your feet and stroke
    your ego before you will give us an audience. We are nothing, we are
    pathetic, and you are all knowing. Ok, NOW i get it!

    > I would recommend that you learn to be civil to those you disagree
    > with. The alternative is to be surrounded by them.


    That sounds like a veiled threat to me Geremy! Your scare tactics are
    not working so go home.
     
    rantingrick, Jan 25, 2011
    #16
  17. On 1/25/2011 12:55 PM Octavian Rasnita said...
    >
    >> this thread was a "psy-ops" (psychological

    > operations) trick to turn off wxPython adopters by associating it with
    > juvenile nonsense
    >
    > Do you think the need for accessibility is a nonsense?
    > Or do you think it is something juvenile?


    Are third party installations nonsense? Or should python come with all
    libraries for all potential applications? And then always keep up with
    best of breed?

    Emile
     
    Emile van Sebille, Jan 25, 2011
    #17
  18. Littlefield, Tyler

    rantingrick Guest

    On Jan 25, 5:01 pm, Nicholas Devenish <> wrote:

    > why should I put my time and effort into learning a framework
    > with a community that is so hostile, when there are plenty of alternatives?


    That is exactly the point i have been making about this community (at
    c.l.py) We are not as noob friendly as we should be. If anyone dares
    commit ideas and they are not "accepted" yet, then that person will be
    pounced on and beaten. I have seen it time and time again. I have
    experienced this firsthand!
     
    rantingrick, Jan 25, 2011
    #18
  19. Littlefield, Tyler

    rantingrick Guest

    On Jan 25, 5:47 pm, Emile van Sebille <> wrote:

    > Are third party installations nonsense?


    Of course not.

    > Or should python come with all
    > libraries for all potential applications?


    Again, of course not. No one has suggested such bombastic ideas in
    this thread, you are the first.

    > And then always keep up with
    > best of breed?


    Yes, Python should be as close to the "cutting edge" as possible. What
    does that mean exactly? Well we don't wont to be so close that we cut
    a finger (web interfaces). However at the same time we don't want to
    find ourselves two decades behind in evolution (Tkinter). There must
    be some middle ground. I believe some form of modified wxPython IS
    that middle ground. Five to tens years from now, web/mobile interfaces
    may be the middle ground.

    How much longer are we going to wait? How much longer can we wait
    without making a move? The Tkinter module is like a scared rabbit,
    frozen with fear, and unable to move. So too are we.


    Change with the times are get left behind!
     
    rantingrick, Jan 25, 2011
    #19
  20. On 1/25/2011 3:33 PM rantingrick said...

    > Tkinter is old and in many ways insufficient for 21st century GUIs. We
    > need to decide what should come next. I believe wxPython is our best
    > hope. Wx may not be the best it can be, but it is the best we have at
    > this time.


    Then you should immediately volunteer to bring wxPython to python3
    compatibility -- as it is, it's not even close...

    Start thinking about upping your game from ranting to doing.

    Emile
     
    Emile van Sebille, Jan 26, 2011
    #20
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