Really cool site about CSS

[VB Programmer]

Take a look at the SAME site, with different CSS style sheets:
http://www.csszengarden.com/


Cool stuff.


Interesting article on CSS vs Tables:
http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/index.html

Are any of you using purely CSS and no tables for page layouts? Just
wondering.

 

[pmb]

And take a look at that SAME site, with different browsers! And notice
the difference! The main issue with that kind of layout is that they
are poorly rendered in old browsers, for example Internet Explorer 5.

 

[VB Programmer]

Is it really possible to get page layouts like this without using frames?
Or do you need basic frames to place side-bar nav, header, footer elements,
etc...?

Interesting.

 

[Colin Young]

And why should we be continuing to support browsers that are several years
old and don't provide compliance with accepted standards? Continuing to
insist on support for old, outdated browsers just ends of costing lots of
money and time for no real gain.

See http://www.alistapart.com/articles/tohell/ and note that the article was
written in 2001 and even back then non-compliant browsers were considered
obsolete. It's now 3 years later and you're still concerned about IE 5?
Please. Just because some brain-dead browser that hardly anyone uses can't
render the page properly is no reason to call it an issue.

Colin

 

[Colin Young]

Yep. I only use tables for tabular data. It's made my life much easier.

Another good site is http://www.alistapart.com/

Colin

 

[VB Programmer]

So, if you wanted to do a side-bar navigation, with a header and footer, you
wouldn't uses any tables, just css? If so, how do you position it exactly
like you want?

Great link btw.

 

[George Ter-Saakov]

Actually it's money that counts.
You can have the most perfect and advanced site that is working with IE 9.0
( i know it does not exist yet) but it will be a dead site since there are
still thousands of user who is using IE 5.0

Of course you can not bow to anyone who does not want to upgrade the system.
But if the percentage of the people who is using IE 5.0 is high i would say
your site must work with IE 5.0


It's matter of your marketing team (or what ever it's called) to make the
cutoff point (browser version).

For my home page cutoff point is IE 6.0 since i doubt that anyone will be
visiting it and i have IE 6.0 ( i am trying to be sarcastic).

George.

 

[VB Programmer]

I would like to visit your site using IE .01 alpha. I bet it would look
GREAT!

LOL

 

[Kevin Spencer]

You both have good points. It really depends upon the requirements of your
client/customer. I agree that it isn't generally fruitful to develop for
obsolete browsers, but the customer is always right! So, I would recommend
using CSS (and do), but if a client told me that my web app has to be
compliant with Netscrape 4, I would have to bite the bullet and make it
compliant with Netscrape 4.

--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
..Net Developer
Microsoft MVP
Big things are made up
of lots of little things.

 

[Colin Young]

I'd actually be inclined to walk away from the deal if they insisted on it
looking the same in NN4. Functioning is another matter, but no amount of
extra billable hours are worth it to me. It's lucky for those sorts of
clients there are people like you around

Colin

 

[Colin Young]

My point is that the number of people still using IE 5 is so tiny that there
just isn't a way to justify the effort for most sites.

Colin

 

[Colin Young]

I don't attempt to get an exact position. Remember, the web isn't paper.
Your design is going to get stuffed into all kinds of weird browser
configurations. The best you can aim for is to make it readable and
functional in all of them and look good in most of them.

Header, footer and side bar use 4 div tags: 1 each for the header and footer
and one for the nav (using float: left) and one for the content (also using
float: left). Set widths as required.

Colin

 

[George]

I agree with you here
When customer is asking me "can we make it work on any browser" my reply is always
"depends how much money you got" .

George
My Site - Body Jewelry
I'd actually be inclined to walk away from the deal if they insisted on it
looking the same in NN4. Functioning is another matter, but no amount of
extra billable hours are worth it to me. It's lucky for those sorts of
clients there are people like you around

Colin

 

[George]

Haha.
Do you just saying it just to say anything?
Is it backed up by any data?

http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/bstats/latest.html#IEVersions
IE 5 - 13.3% plus Netscape another 3% plus some other browsers like Mozila or OPera and
you will get 20% of users can not properly view use your site if you designed it with CSS.

Is it tiny? On my site it's about 400 unique people a day.
I know some people would kill for that amount


George
My Site - Body Jewelry
My point is that the number of people still using IE 5 is so tiny that there
just isn't a way to justify the effort for most sites.

 

[Kevin Spencer]

Oh, believe me, Colin. I would be inclined to wlak away from such a project
as well! However, there are times when one has to do such things.
Fortunately, I don't encounter those situations in my work!

--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
..Net Developer
Microsoft MVP
Big things are made up
of lots of little things.

 

[Colin Young]

No, I'm not just saying it. My sites get under 5% of users using all
browsers other than IE6, and most of that 5% are using Netscape 6. Well
under 1% of our users use a non-compliant browser. The thing to keep in mind
with the IE 5 stats is that on the Mac, the latest version of IE is 5, and
it provides pretty decent standards supports (much better than IE5 on
Windows ever did).

If I design my site using CSS, Mozilla will actually provide better support
than IE. Opera also provides excellent support for CSS. Text-only browsers
will also work better with a CSS sight. If you don't believe me, I challenge
you to install Lynx and view a site that uses tables and a site that uses
CSS for layout.

To justify the development effort, you need to look at what you are trying
to do with your site. It's often a simple financial matter. If the cost to
make the site work for the tiny percentage of users with out of date
browsers exceeds the increase in revenue you'll get from those users, it
isn't worth it. And, when you consider that if they haven't upgraded their
browsers, they may be less likely to be buying or researching products on
the internet, it's likely not worth it.

You have to do the analysis on your own project and determine what the
acceptable trade-offs are. Too often site specs demand down-level
compatibility without considering the costs involved.

Colin

Haha.
Do you just saying it just to say anything?
Is it backed up by any data?

http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/bstats/latest.html#IEVersions
IE 5 - 13.3% plus Netscape another 3% plus some other browsers like Mozila
or OPera and
you will get 20% of users can not properly view use your site if you
designed it with CSS.

Is it tiny? On my site it's about 400 unique people a day.
I know some people would kill for that amount


George
My Site - Body Jewelry
My point is that the number of people still using IE 5 is so tiny that there
just isn't a way to justify the effort for most sites.