Reasonably priced C11 standard?

Discussion in 'C Programming' started by Keith Thompson, Jan 25, 2012.

  1. Years ago, I bought a PDF copy of the ISO C90 standard from ansi.org
    for $18. I later bought a PDF copy of the C99 standard for either
    $18 or $30

    Now when I look on webstore.ansi.org, the C99 standard is still
    available for $30, but they want $285 for ISO/IEC 9899:2011.

    iso.org is charging CHF 238, which is about $255 US at current
    exchange rates.

    Apparently ANSI had a policy of selling the C99 standard at a
    reasonable price. Why does that policy not apply to the C11
    standard? Is any other organization selling (legal!) copies of
    C11 at a lower price?

    (The same thing seems to be happening with the ISO C++ standard.)

    --
    Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
    Will write code for food.
    "We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
    Keith Thompson, Jan 25, 2012
    #1
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  2. Keith Thompson <> writes:
    [snip]

    Sorry, I meant to post that to comp.std.c. I'll repost there.

    --
    Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
    Will write code for food.
    "We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
    Keith Thompson, Jan 25, 2012
    #2
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  3. Keith Thompson

    jacob navia Guest

    Le 25/01/12 21:53, Keith Thompson a écrit :

    > Apparently ANSI had a policy of selling the C99 standard at a
    > reasonable price. Why does that policy not apply to the C11
    > standard? Is any other organization selling (legal!) copies of
    > C11 at a lower price?


    That would be risky. If the price was low, many people could read that
    stuff.

    :)
    jacob navia, Jan 26, 2012
    #3
  4. Keith Thompson

    paolo Guest

    On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:53:54 -0800, Keith Thompson wrote:
    > Years ago, I bought a PDF copy of the ISO C90 standard from ansi.org for
    > $18. I later bought a PDF copy of the C99 standard for either $18 or
    > $30
    >
    > Now when I look on webstore.ansi.org, the C99 standard is still
    > available for $30, but they want $285 for ISO/IEC 9899:2011.
    >
    > iso.org is charging CHF 238, which is about $255 US at current exchange
    > rates.
    >
    > Apparently ANSI had a policy of selling the C99 standard at a reasonable
    > price. Why does that policy not apply to the C11 standard? Is any
    > other organization selling (legal!) copies of C11 at a lower price?
    >
    > (The same thing seems to be happening with the ISO C++ standard.)


    Just be patient, it will be on the torrents in a couple of weeks.
    paolo, Feb 2, 2012
    #4
  5. Keith Thompson

    James Kuyper Guest

    On 02/02/2012 03:03 PM, paolo wrote:
    > On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:53:54 -0800, Keith Thompson wrote:
    >> Years ago, I bought a PDF copy of the ISO C90 standard from ansi.org for
    >> $18. I later bought a PDF copy of the C99 standard for either $18 or
    >> $30
    >>
    >> Now when I look on webstore.ansi.org, the C99 standard is still
    >> available for $30, but they want $285 for ISO/IEC 9899:2011.
    >>
    >> iso.org is charging CHF 238, which is about $255 US at current exchange
    >> rates.
    >>
    >> Apparently ANSI had a policy of selling the C99 standard at a reasonable
    >> price. Why does that policy not apply to the C11 standard? Is any
    >> other organization selling (legal!) copies of C11 at a lower price?
    >>
    >> (The same thing seems to be happening with the ISO C++ standard.)

    >
    > Just be patient, it will be on the torrents in a couple of weeks.


    He did specify that he was looking for legal copies.
    James Kuyper, Feb 2, 2012
    #5
  6. Keith Thompson

    Rich Webb Guest

    On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 12:53:54 -0800, Keith Thompson <>
    wrote:

    >Years ago, I bought a PDF copy of the ISO C90 standard from ansi.org
    >for $18. I later bought a PDF copy of the C99 standard for either
    >$18 or $30
    >
    >Now when I look on webstore.ansi.org, the C99 standard is still
    >available for $30, but they want $285 for ISO/IEC 9899:2011.
    >
    >iso.org is charging CHF 238, which is about $255 US at current
    >exchange rates.
    >
    >Apparently ANSI had a policy of selling the C99 standard at a
    >reasonable price. Why does that policy not apply to the C11
    >standard? Is any other organization selling (legal!) copies of
    >C11 at a lower price?
    >
    >(The same thing seems to be happening with the ISO C++ standard.)


    The price seems to change based on an algorithm that accounts for the
    flow in the Héraðsvötn, the price of beef in Cochabamba, and the annual
    rainfall total in Darwin.

    I picked up a PDF copy of C99 from INCITS http://www.incits.org/ a
    couple of years ago for only $30 and now they want $220 and only the
    printed version is available there while, as you note, ANSI still offers
    a $30 PDF. Sheesh...

    --
    Rich Webb Norfolk, VA
    Rich Webb, Feb 2, 2012
    #6
  7. Keith Thompson

    jacob navia Guest

    Le 02/02/12 22:27, Rich Webb a écrit :
    > I picked up a PDF copy of C99 from INCITS http://www.incits.org/ a
    > couple of years ago for only $30 and now they want $220 and only the
    > printed version is available there while, as you note, ANSI still offers
    > a $30 PDF. Sheesh...
    >


    Note that the The Art of Computer Programming, Volumes 1-4A Boxed Set
    [Hardcover] costs only 200 US$. That puts that ridiculous price in
    perspective.
    jacob navia, Feb 3, 2012
    #7
  8. > He did specify that he was looking for legal copies.

    Well that's a fine point. It will be a *copy* of a legal copy. Will that
    work for you? Works for me! ;-)
    Fritz Wuehler, Feb 3, 2012
    #8
  9. Keith Thompson

    Walter Banks Guest

    Fritz Wuehler wrote:

    > > He did specify that he was looking for legal copies.

    >
    > Well that's a fine point. It will be a *copy* of a legal copy. Will that
    > work for you? Works for me! ;-)


    No it doesn't work for me :(.
    Walter Banks, Feb 3, 2012
    #9
  10. Keith Thompson

    Guest

    jacob navia <> wrote:
    >
    > Note that the The Art of Computer Programming, Volumes 1-4A Boxed Set
    > [Hardcover] costs only 200 US$. That puts that ridiculous price in
    > perspective.


    Commercial books pricing has very little in common with standards
    pricing. Standards are priced solely based on page count with no
    consideration of potential sales. The average standard probably doesn't
    sell more than a dozen copies. If TAOCP only sold a dozen copies, it
    wouldn't be $200, either.

    INCITS understands that the potential market for computer language
    standards is much larger than that for other standards, particularly if
    priced reasonably. Since the production and distribution cost of an
    electronic document is essentially nil, they figured they'd make a lot
    more money selling them cheaply than expensively, which is what they've
    been doing. As far as I know, it's worked out even better than they'd
    hoped.
    --
    Larry Jones

    I've got to start listening to those quiet, nagging doubts. -- Calvin
    , Feb 3, 2012
    #10
  11. Keith Thompson

    Ben Pfaff Guest

    writes:

    > INCITS understands that the potential market for computer language
    > standards is much larger than that for other standards, particularly if
    > priced reasonably. Since the production and distribution cost of an
    > electronic document is essentially nil, they figured they'd make a lot
    > more money selling them cheaply than expensively, which is what they've
    > been doing. As far as I know, it's worked out even better than they'd
    > hoped.


    Did they change that policy for 9899:2011? Or does that mean
    that they are going to lower the C11 price from $228 to something
    more reasonable, then?
    --
    "A lesson for us all: Even in trivia there are traps."
    --Eric Sosman
    Ben Pfaff, Feb 3, 2012
    #11
  12. Fritz Wuehler <>
    writes:
    >> He did specify that he was looking for legal copies.

    >
    > Well that's a fine point. It will be a *copy* of a legal copy. Will that
    > work for you? Works for me! ;-)


    Absolutely not.

    (BTW, I posted here by accident, and re-posted to comp.std.c where this
    is more topical. There was some discussion there.)


    --
    Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
    Will write code for food.
    "We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
    Keith Thompson, Feb 3, 2012
    #12
  13. Keith Thompson

    Guest

    Ben Pfaff <> wrote:
    > writes:
    >
    > > INCITS understands that the potential market for computer language
    > > standards is much larger than that for other standards, particularly if
    > > priced reasonably. Since the production and distribution cost of an
    > > electronic document is essentially nil, they figured they'd make a lot
    > > more money selling them cheaply than expensively, which is what they've
    > > been doing. As far as I know, it's worked out even better than they'd
    > > hoped.

    >
    > Did they change that policy for 9899:2011? Or does that mean
    > that they are going to lower the C11 price from $228 to something
    > more reasonable, then?


    The $228 document is the ISO document that they're reselling -- I think
    most of that money goes to ISO. Once it's adopted as an ANSI standard,
    NCITS has the right to produce and sell their own version, which should
    be reasonably priced. I'm not sure how long it takes to grind through
    the administrative process until that happens, but nothing is done
    quickly in the standards world.
    --
    Larry Jones

    I think we need to change the rules. -- Calvin
    , Feb 3, 2012
    #13
  14. Keith Thompson

    Rui Maciel Guest

    James Kuyper wrote:

    > He did specify that he was looking for legal copies.


    If it is exclusively for personal use and doesn't have a noticeable impact
    on the sale of the work of art, in some jurisdictions a copy downloaded from
    anywhere is as "legal" as any other copy.


    Rui Maciel
    Rui Maciel, Feb 4, 2012
    #14
  15. Keith Thompson

    Guest

    William Ahern <william@wilbur.25thandclement.com> wrote:
    >
    > I've purchased several different ISO standards in the past few years, and
    > they've all been approximately 238CHF on both the ISO and ANSI websites. My
    > guess is that's the standard price for the most recent version of a single
    > software standard document.


    The price is determined by the page count (not per page but by ranges).
    Most software standards probably fall into the same bucket.
    --
    Larry Jones

    Whatever it is, it's driving me crazy! -- Calvin
    , Feb 4, 2012
    #15
  16. writes:
    > William Ahern <william@wilbur.25thandclement.com> wrote:
    >>
    >> I've purchased several different ISO standards in the past few years, and
    >> they've all been approximately 238CHF on both the ISO and ANSI websites. My
    >> guess is that's the standard price for the most recent version of a single
    >> software standard document.

    >
    > The price is determined by the page count (not per page but by ranges).
    > Most software standards probably fall into the same bucket.


    It's a PDF. Surely it could be configured as a single page 8.5 inches
    wide and 642 feet 7 inches long (length based on N1570 draft).

    --
    Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
    Will write code for food.
    "We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
    Keith Thompson, Feb 4, 2012
    #16
  17. Keith Thompson

    BartC Guest

    "Keith Thompson" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > writes:
    >> William Ahern <william@wilbur.25thandclement.com> wrote:
    >>>
    >>> I've purchased several different ISO standards in the past few years,
    >>> and
    >>> they've all been approximately 238CHF on both the ISO and ANSI websites.
    >>> My
    >>> guess is that's the standard price for the most recent version of a
    >>> single
    >>> software standard document.

    >>
    >> The price is determined by the page count (not per page but by ranges).
    >> Most software standards probably fall into the same bucket.

    >
    > It's a PDF. Surely it could be configured as a single page 8.5 inches
    > wide and 642 feet 7 inches long (length based on N1570 draft).


    That would be too unwieldy. You just have to use one normal-sized page (eg.
    A4 or 8.5x11), but a microscopic font size.

    --
    Bart
    BartC, Feb 5, 2012
    #17
  18. Keith Thompson

    Noob Guest

    Fritz Wuehler wrote:

    > James Kuyper wrote:
    >
    >> He did specify that he was looking for legal copies.

    >
    > Well that's a fine point. It will be a *copy* of a legal copy.
    > Will that work for you? Works for me! ;-)


    In France, it is legal to provide a copy of a work protected by copyright
    to anyone in one's "close circle" (as defined by case law) for personal use.

    Some of you (mostly anglophones) have been brain-washed by "big media"(*)
    and are waaay too docile when it comes to copyright.

    (*) It's funny (in a sad way) that "big media" are the ACTUAL "thief"
    in this story, pilfering and ransacking the public domain since $DEITY
    invented the talking mouse.

    Regards.
    Noob, Feb 6, 2012
    #18
  19. Keith Thompson

    James Kuyper Guest

    On 02/06/2012 05:14 AM, Noob wrote:
    > Fritz Wuehler wrote:
    >
    >> James Kuyper wrote:
    >>
    >>> He did specify that he was looking for legal copies.

    >>
    >> Well that's a fine point. It will be a *copy* of a legal copy.
    >> Will that work for you? Works for me! ;-)

    >
    > In France, it is legal to provide a copy of a work protected by copyright
    > to anyone in one's "close circle" (as defined by case law) for personal use.


    It's hard for me to believe that a perfect stranger whose only
    connection to you is that he downloaded something that you made
    available over the internet, could qualify as being in your "close
    circle". If such a person did qualify, it would render copyright
    meaningless.

    > Some of you (mostly anglophones) have been brain-washed by "big media"(*)
    > and are waaay too docile when it comes to copyright.


    Some of us can use our own brains to understand the value of having
    copyrights (and reasonable enforcement of same).
    --
    James Kuyper
    James Kuyper, Feb 6, 2012
    #19
  20. Keith Thompson

    Rui Maciel Guest

    Copyright Re: Reasonably priced C11 standard?

    James Kuyper wrote:

    >> Some of you (mostly anglophones) have been brain-washed by "big media"(*)
    >> and are waaay too docile when it comes to copyright.

    >
    > Some of us can use our own brains to understand the value of having
    > copyrights (and reasonable enforcement of same).


    Notice that being supportive of unauthorized distribution of copyrighted
    works exclusively for personal use does not mean that one fails to
    "understand the value of having copyrights".

    Moreover, supporting the totalitarian control of copyrighted works as it is
    demanded by distributors does by no mean implies that one "understands the
    value of having copyrights". In fact, it demonstrates an appalling lack of
    understanding on the role of copyright in a developed society, that only
    benefits distributors and no one else. And this includes the very same
    people who actually produce copyrighted works. Hence, the appropriate
    "brain-washed" reference.


    Rui Maciel
    Rui Maciel, Feb 6, 2012
    #20
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