Recommend a good programming environment for beginner?

[Lew]

e) Select at least two you like best and use them. Two, or more, so you don't get dependent on a certain IDE.

I wish my managers at various jobs understood this. In enterprise development
it is not uncommon for the Powers That Be to mandate an IDE for all developers
in the name of "consistency" (hark to Ralph Waldo Emerson's warning about "a
foolish consistency") and the ability to "share knowledge". But they ignore
the dangers of IDE dependencies.

For example, Eclipse is sometimes too smart - I've seen it resolve classpath
issues silently, which messed up a delivery that was built without Eclipse's
help. IDEs often include their own libraries, sometimes, like Netbeans's
"AbsoluteLayout" or WebSphere Application Developer's SWT GUI library, that
can be a problem where wider standards are desirable.

I believe that emacs (or vi) in conjunction with an Ant-driven build is the
"best" way to guarantee a clean delivery, though not necessarily the most
productive for development and debugging.

Besides these issues, if you're a working programmer you need to be facile
enough to adopt whatever mandatory IDE your employer (foolishly?) demands.

- Lew

 

[Daniel Dyer]

I wish my managers at various jobs understood this. In enterprise
development it is not uncommon for the Powers That Be to mandate an IDE
for all developers in the name of "consistency" (hark to Ralph Waldo
Emerson's warning about "a foolish consistency") and the ability to
"share knowledge". But they ignore the dangers of IDE dependencies.

Agreed. In our team we use a mix of IDEA and Eclipse. IDE configuration
files are banned from Subversion and builds are decoupled from particular
IDEs by using Ant.

This post (http://www.javalobby.org/java/forums/t83124.html) from the
other day illustrates your point. The poster can't find enough Java
developers in London who have NetBeans experience and won't consider
otherwise highly skilled developers who happen to use a different tool.
Even ignoring the argument against standardising on one IDE, it would not
take long for a competent developer to learn NetBeans.

I believe that emacs (or vi) in conjunction with an Ant-driven build is
the "best" way to guarantee a clean delivery, though not necessarily the
most productive for development and debugging.

We use Continuum (on a machine that has only Ant installed) to make sure
our projects build without any unwelcome tool dependencies.

Dan.

 

[BillJosephson]

A very nice GUI editor (aka "form" designer) for particular tasks, which
is part of NetBeans.

May I provide some general suggestions? Instead of listening to the
fanboys ("the best of the best" ha, ha, ha)

a) you accept the fact the there is no such thing as "the best" tool,
IDE, computer language, etc.

b) many depends on individual preferences, the task at hand, experience,
education, requirements, etc. And, yes, even it seems many depends on
the mental health and sanity of the user

c) Which, as a consequence, means you, and only you can decide what is
"the best" in your particular circumstances, with your particular
background.

d) In other words: Try them. Try them all, or at least try as much as
you can get your hands on

e) Select at least two you like best and use them. Two, or more, so you
don't get dependent on a certain IDE. So you aren't helpless, don't look
stupid, and don't have to whine should you have to work in an
environment where your "best" tool is not available. So you can look
beyond your own nose and don't have to utter nonsense like "the best of
the best oft the ..."

f) Learn to use the command line tools, too. For the same reason as
above. In fact, I in general suggest to first master the command line
tools and all the basics around them before starting with an IDE.


Power? Another meaningless term in this discussion. It depends on what
you need.


You are aware that many people here don't like to be called "dude"?

/Thomas

Heh, heh. And don't forget:

g) now, when you've completed a - f, fill out your application for a
retirement home, since that has taken your entire life. Of course, java
is no longer in use at this time, but you can benefit from your vast
research by writing an archeological tomb describing odd strctural
languages for human control of digital computers in the 21st century.

And, dude, I said dude, because some people don't like dude, and
somebody called me dude, so just to tease that dude, I said dude, but
of course everyone reading it probably felt like I was calling them
dude, see what I mean, dude?

 

[Thomas Weidenfeller]

Heh, heh. And don't forget:

g) now, when you've completed a - f, fill out your application for a
retirement home, since that has taken your entire life. Of course, java
is no longer in use at this time, but you can benefit from your vast
research by writing an archeological tomb describing odd strctural
languages for human control of digital computers in the 21st century.

Sorry, I was not aware that you don't want to elevate above script
kiddie level. I hope the academic standards at New Mexico State are
higher and they either teach you some common sense or let you fail your
course.

And, dude, I said dude, because some people don't like dude, and
somebody called me dude, so just to tease that dude, I said dude, but
of course everyone reading it probably felt like I was calling them
dude, see what I mean, dude?

I see that you like to intentionally insult people. For me you sound as
if you are doing too much weed. Both will definitely limit your academic
career.

/Thomas

 

[antroy]

Howdy. I'm taking a java class, and they unfortunately just have us

using the DOS cmd liine and notepad to program. I'd like to use a good
environment. I used to use Codewarrior. Netbeans came with the Java
download from Sun, but it overwhelmed me, seems like I'd have to invest
a lot in learning it. Does anybody know of a sleeker, easier to get
used to environment?

IMHO full blown IDE's such as Netbeans and Eclipse are huge and
bloated, but unfortunately in the industry pretty indispensible if you
are writing J2EE applications.

For standard Java applications, I find heavyweight IDE's more of a
hinderance than a help. Certainly at the level you are at (Learning
Java) they will get in the way more than they will help.

My personal recommendation is to use jEdit (www.jedit.org), since it a
superb text editor (leaving NetBeans and Eclipse far behind in as far
as the editor components go), and is extensible with a host of standard
plugins and macros. The only plugin you will want to start with is the
Console plugin, which will let you write Java program in the editor,
and compile and run them in the integrated console without having to
manually type in the commands each time.

In addition, jEdits console plugin comes with a Beanshell interpreter,
which is great for testing out snippets of Java code to see what it
does without the full compile - run cycle.

 

[BillJosephson]

Sorry, I was not aware that you don't want to elevate above script
kiddie level. I hope the academic standards at New Mexico State are
higher and they either teach you some common sense or let you fail your
course.


I see that you like to intentionally insult people. For me you sound as
if you are doing too much weed. Both will definitely limit your academic
career.

/Thomas

Thomas, when I come here for a quick answer, it is not appropriate to
suggest I go learn all of the environments. I could have figured that
out myself.

Anyway, no intention to hurt your feelings as I apparently did. I was
trying to be humorous. But, no worries. Have a good day...

 

[BillJosephson]

IMHO full blown IDE's such as Netbeans and Eclipse are huge and
bloated, but unfortunately in the industry pretty indispensible if you
are writing J2EE applications.

For standard Java applications, I find heavyweight IDE's more of a
hinderance than a help. Certainly at the level you are at (Learning
Java) they will get in the way more than they will help.

My personal recommendation is to use jEdit (www.jedit.org), since it a
superb text editor (leaving NetBeans and Eclipse far behind in as far
as the editor components go), and is extensible with a host of standard
plugins and macros. The only plugin you will want to start with is the
Console plugin, which will let you write Java program in the editor,
and compile and run them in the integrated console without having to
manually type in the commands each time.

In addition, jEdits console plugin comes with a Beanshell interpreter,
which is great for testing out snippets of Java code to see what it
does without the full compile - run cycle.

Thanks much. I came back to this thread because jGRASP is a horrible
editor. I can't indent so spend all my time trying to get tabs lined
up. Drives me batty. I never realized how much i depend on smart
editors. Tempted to use emacs, but I don't know how to get it to work
with a java compiler in windows.

Thanks....

 

[Martin Gregorie]

Thanks much. I came back to this thread because jGRASP is a horrible
editor. I can't indent so spend all my time trying to get tabs lined
up. Drives me batty. I never realized how much i depend on smart
editors. Tempted to use emacs, but I don't know how to get it to work
with a java compiler in windows.

If you want a good, capable, easy to use Windows editor, visit Winsite
<http://www.winsite.com/> and pick up PFE, Programmer's File Editor. You
want the 9x version.

Apart from ported *nix editors, e.g. microEmacs, its the best Windows
text editor I know. Yes, it does auto-indentation. It also configure it
differently for each file extension. About the only things it doesn't do
are colored syntax and regex searching. Its easy to make it run javac
and return the error messages in a window.

 

[Danno]

Sorry, I was not aware that you don't want to elevate above script
kiddie level. I hope the academic standards at New Mexico State are
higher and they either teach you some common sense or let you fail your
course.

Uncalled for.

I see that you like to intentionally insult people. For me you sound as
if you are doing too much weed. Both will definitely limit your academic
career.

Dude isn't insulting.

 

[BillJosephson]

IMHO full blown IDE's such as Netbeans and Eclipse are huge and
bloated, but unfortunately in the industry pretty indispensible if you
are writing J2EE applications.

For standard Java applications, I find heavyweight IDE's more of a
hinderance than a help. Certainly at the level you are at (Learning
Java) they will get in the way more than they will help.

My personal recommendation is to use jEdit (www.jedit.org), since it a
superb text editor (leaving NetBeans and Eclipse far behind in as far
as the editor components go), and is extensible with a host of standard
plugins and macros. The only plugin you will want to start with is the
Console plugin, which will let you write Java program in the editor,
and compile and run them in the integrated console without having to
manually type in the commands each time.

In addition, jEdits console plugin comes with a Beanshell interpreter,
which is great for testing out snippets of Java code to see what it
does without the full compile - run cycle.

Hi, thanks, I'm giving it a try. I got it running, but when I try to
get plugins I get some connection error, so have gotten stopped. Still,
looks good and I'll try to get help in their forums.

If you just wanted a debugger and the ability to run code, what are the
minimum plugins you'd recommend?

Thanks much.

 

[BillJosephson]

Uncalled for.


Dude isn't insulting.

Way, dude.

 

[BillJosephson]

Oops, I should have said, I'm trying jEdit now. But, I need an IDE and
it's just an editor. The plugins look like I can make an IDE out of it
but I keep getting "error I/O can not connect" or something like that.
Is there a quick fix? Also what minimum plugins will give me an IDE
with debugger, compiler, and code editor, so I can step through code
and look at data structure contents?

Thanks....

 

[Danno]

Dudes.........
you are missing the point!!! netbeans is no way considered
to be user friendly. JCreator is an excellent editor for
beginners.........(but its windows based ) . Anyway Eclipse is the
best of the best of the best . you cant beat this IDE . really once you
get to know what is a workspace and what is a package.........you are
on cloud 9 with eclipse....Besides it looks so much better on linux
than netbeans !!!
either go for JCreator or eclipse .Dont bother yourself with netbeans.
Netbeans (i use it for just the matissa thing which rocks! )

Dude, you're high.

Eclipse blows chunks. NetBeans was ascended to heaven once cause God
needed to fix the strength of hurricane cycles from last year. He
needed a powerful Java IDE to do so, he chose NetBeans, and of course
it rocked because he liked the ant integration.

Kidding aside, NetBeans looks real good on Linux too. I just plug in
my greatest font into the java runtime and zammo, something real nice.

Here is my screenshot:
http://www.evolutionnext.com/blog/images/NetBeans-large.png

NetBeans 5.5 is out and comes with awesome features.

Hey, does Eclipse has subversion plugins?

 

[BillJosephson]

Dude, you're high.

Eclipse blows chunks. NetBeans was ascended to heaven once cause God
needed to fix the strength of hurricane cycles from last year. He
needed a powerful Java IDE to do so, he chose NetBeans, and of course
it rocked because he liked the ant integration.

Kidding aside, NetBeans looks real good on Linux too. I just plug in
my greatest font into the java runtime and zammo, something real nice.

Here is my screenshot:
http://www.evolutionnext.com/blog/images/NetBeans-large.png

NetBeans 5.5 is out and comes with awesome features.

Hey, does Eclipse has subversion plugins?

That looks excellent, and like something I could intuitively use right
away. But when I downloaded it and started it, it looked nothing like
that at all. Is the a quick path to getting NetBeans like you have it?

Thanks much....

 

[crazzybugger]

Dude, you're high.

Eclipse blows chunks. NetBeans was ascended to heaven once cause God
needed to fix the strength of hurricane cycles from last year. He
needed a powerful Java IDE to do so, he chose NetBeans, and of course
it rocked because he liked the ant integration.

Kidding aside, NetBeans looks real good on Linux too. I just plug in
my greatest font into the java runtime and zammo, something real nice.

Here is my screenshot:
http://www.evolutionnext.com/blog/images/NetBeans-large.png

NetBeans 5.5 is out and comes with awesome features.

Hey, does Eclipse has subversion plugins?

Dude, I think you need to consult an eye doctor ....Netbeans hurts my
eyes on linux .....
Eclipse rocks . Here are some screen shots to support my view .

Netbeans : http://img97.imageshack.us/my.php?image=myeyesvn4.jpg ( Even
after selecting anti-aliasing option!!! )

Eclipse :http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/4026/godsr2.jpg

By the way i think you should atleast have the courage to agree that
netbeans is slower than eclipse and it is buggy. I suppose you have
never used plug ins in eclipse. Eclipse look rocks both on windows and
linux .
I prefer eclipse 1000 times over Netbeans except
for Matissa which i agree rocks!!! so you see i am not a
"Anti-Netbeans" radical nor an "Eclipse-High" guy but i like things
according to the features and Eclipse clearly is the winner for me! i
do not enforce my view on anyone neither was this my intention .
Even the simplest feature like generating getters and setters is not
easily accessible in netbeans . you have to click within the class body
and press ctrl+space to get the list (for which you have to wait some
time , then you waste more time by searching for your option )
The list goes on and on!!! This has been argued over and over
again on the net and there is no end to it. I end this by saying that
taste matters mostly !!!

 

[Danno]

Dude, I think you need to consult an eye doctor ....Netbeans hurts my
eyes on linux .....
Eclipse rocks . Here are some screen shots to support my view .

Netbeans : http://img97.imageshack.us/my.php?image=myeyesvn4.jpg ( Even
after selecting anti-aliasing option!!! )

Eclipse :http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/4026/godsr2.jpg

I am not going to take anyone who doesn't use monospaced fonts
seriously.

By the way i think you should atleast have the courage to agree that
netbeans is slower than eclipse and it is buggy. I suppose you have
never used plug ins in eclipse. Eclipse look rocks both on windows and
linux .

netbeans isn't slower, and it is not buggy.

I prefer eclipse 1000 times over Netbeans except
for Matissa which i agree rocks!!! so you see i am not a
"Anti-Netbeans" radical nor an "Eclipse-High" guy but i like things
according to the features and Eclipse clearly is the winner for me! i
do not enforce my view on anyone neither was this my intention .
Even the simplest feature like generating getters and setters is not
easily accessible in netbeans .

You can just go to BeanPatterns -> Add Property and be done with it.

you have to click within the class body