Reddit broke - should have remained on Lisp?

Discussion in 'Python' started by Alok, Jun 30, 2006.

  1. Alok

    Alok Guest

    Alok, Jun 30, 2006
    #1
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  2. Alok wrote:
    > While posting a comment on http://www.reddit.com I got an error page
    > with the following curious statement on it.
    >
    > "reddit broke (sorry)"
    > "looks like we shouldn't have stopped using lisp..."
    >
    > See screenshot at
    > http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1773/1980/1600/reddit-broke.jpg
    >
    > Whether they truly repent not using lisp or otherwise, their site
    > appears to be 3 times slower ...
    >
    > Alok



    I don't know if this is true or not, but blaming a language for a poor
    development is a little bit ridiculous...
     
    =?iso-8859-1?q?Luis_M._Gonz=E1lez?=, Jun 30, 2006
    #2
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  3. Alok

    Alok Guest

    Luis M. González wrote:
    > Alok wrote:
    > > While posting a comment on http://www.reddit.com I got an error page
    > > with the following curious statement on it.
    > >
    > > "reddit broke (sorry)"
    > > "looks like we shouldn't have stopped using lisp..."
    > >
    > > See screenshot at
    > > http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1773/1980/1600/reddit-broke.jpg
    > >
    > > Whether they truly repent not using lisp or otherwise, their site
    > > appears to be 3 times slower ...
    > >
    > > Alok

    >
    >
    > I don't know if this is true or not, but blaming a language for a poor
    > development is a little bit ridiculous...


    I was merely describing my experience and inviting others' response
    about theirs. Please don't misconstrue that as a blame on any language.

    And of course, I disagree with your comments about ridicule etc.
     
    Alok, Jun 30, 2006
    #3
  4. Alok wrote:
    > I was merely describing my experience and inviting others' response
    > about theirs.


    That's exactly what I'm doing.

    > Please don't misconstrue that as a blame on any language.


    I think it can be interpreted in many ways.
    Now if you're not ready to read other people's oppinions, don't ask.

    > And of course, I disagree with your comments about ridicule etc.


    Ok.
     
    =?iso-8859-1?q?Luis_M._Gonz=E1lez?=, Jun 30, 2006
    #4
  5. Alok

    K.S.Sreeram Guest

    Luis M. González wrote:
    > Alok wrote:
    >> While posting a comment on http://www.reddit.com I got an error page
    >> with the following curious statement on it.
    >>
    >> "reddit broke (sorry)"
    >> "looks like we shouldn't have stopped using lisp..."

    >
    > I don't know if this is true or not, but blaming a language for a poor
    > development is a little bit ridiculous...


    Have people lost all sense of humor?? Its just reddit's attempt at
    humor! I've rarely seen any server errors on reddit, but even when I do
    see one.. its funny!

    Here's another one:
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/pvera/sets/72057594050280833/

    Check out their testimonials, its hilarious!
    http://reddit.com/static/spreddit/testimonials.html

    Regards
    Sreeram



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    K.S.Sreeram, Jun 30, 2006
    #5
  6. Luis M. González wrote:
    > Alok wrote:
    >
    >>I was merely describing my experience and inviting others' response
    >>about theirs.

    >
    >
    > That's exactly what I'm doing.
    >
    >
    >>Please don't misconstrue that as a blame on any language.

    >
    >
    > I think it can be interpreted in many ways.
    > Now if you're not ready to read other people's oppinions, don't ask.
    >
    >
    >>And of course, I disagree with your comments about ridicule etc.

    >
    >
    > Ok.
    >

    C'mon guys! That "looks like..." thingy is an genre JOKE on
    the reddit-jokers' own expense, right? Knock it OFF!


    --
    Lisp kann nicht kratzen, denn Lisp ist fluessig
     
    Tin Gherdanarra, Jun 30, 2006
    #6
  7. K.S.Sreeram wrote:
    > Have people lost all sense of humor?? Its just reddit's attempt at
    > humor! I've rarely seen any server errors on reddit, but even when I do
    > see one.. its funny!
    >
    > Here's another one:
    > http://www.flickr.com/photos/pvera/sets/72057594050280833/
    >
    > Check out their testimonials, its hilarious!
    > http://reddit.com/static/spreddit/testimonials.html



    Sure, it looks like a joke! And I don't find it offensive at all.
    It's just the comment he added below (their site appears to be 3 times
    slower ...), which seemed to be looking for an argument :)
     
    =?iso-8859-1?q?Luis_M._Gonz=E1lez?=, Jun 30, 2006
    #7
  8. Alok

    Ken Tilton Guest

    Luis M. González wrote:
    > Alok wrote:
    >
    >>While posting a comment on http://www.reddit.com I got an error page
    >>with the following curious statement on it.
    >>
    >>"reddit broke (sorry)"
    >>"looks like we shouldn't have stopped using lisp..."
    >>
    >>See screenshot at
    >>http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1773/1980/1600/reddit-broke.jpg
    >>
    >>Whether they truly repent not using lisp or otherwise, their site
    >>appears to be 3 times slower ...
    >>
    >>Alok

    >
    >
    >
    > I don't know if this is true or not, but blaming a language for a poor
    > development is a little bit ridiculous...
    >


    Well, Reddit said it, not us, and they were probably joking, but it may
    well be that the bug would not have happened if they were using Lisp.
    Could an infinite number of engineers doing code reviews eventually
    found the bug before the end of the universe? The reality is that every
    project has finite resources, all the better reason not to stress the
    team with the wrong language.

    kenny (making Rahul happy by being f'ed by OpenGL bugs)

    --
    Cells: http://common-lisp.net/project/cells/

    "I'll say I'm losing my grip, and it feels terrific."
    -- Smiling husband to scowling wife, New Yorker cartoon
     
    Ken Tilton, Jun 30, 2006
    #8
  9. Alok

    Tim X Guest

    "Luis M. González" <> writes:

    > Alok wrote:
    >> While posting a comment on http://www.reddit.com I got an error page
    >> with the following curious statement on it.
    >>
    >> "reddit broke (sorry)"
    >> "looks like we shouldn't have stopped using lisp..."
    >>
    >> See screenshot at
    >> http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1773/1980/1600/reddit-broke.jpg
    >>
    >> Whether they truly repent not using lisp or otherwise, their site
    >> appears to be 3 times slower ...
    >>
    >> Alok

    >
    >
    > I don't know if this is true or not, but blaming a language for a poor
    > development is a little bit ridiculous...
    >

    Although I'd like to agree with you and the principal is sound,
    unfortunately it does not always hold in the real world. In the years
    I've been programming, there have certainly been situations in which a
    poorly implemented or poorly designed language has made developing
    reliable software near impossible.

    Admittedly this is not as common as it was in the 80s when you had
    lots of companies developing their own "better" languages for certain
    domains and there were a lot of 4GLs promising the world, it is still
    possible to have a situation in which a development fails because of a
    poorly chosen language.

    Actually, I've just remember the introduction to PCL where Peter talks
    about his fathers experience with lisp in the 80s. In this example,
    choosing lisp saved a development project which was looking very much
    like it was going to be a complete failure. If do something like
    selecting a different language saves a development project, isn't it
    also reasonable to suggest that the converse could be true and that
    selecting the wrong language could have a negative impact on
    development?

    Tim

    --
    tcross (at) rapttech dot com dot au
     
    Tim X, Jun 30, 2006
    #9
  10. "Alok" wrote:

    > While posting a comment on http://www.reddit.com I got an error page
    > with the following curious statement on it.
    >
    > "reddit broke (sorry)"
    > "looks like we shouldn't have stopped using lisp..."
    >
    > See screenshot at
    > http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1773/1980/1600/reddit-broke.jpg
    >
    > Whether they truly repent not using lisp or otherwise, their site
    > appears to be 3 times slower ...


    since when? don't you think that the massive growth in usage that they've been
    seeing lately might have something to do with that ?

    </F>
     
    Fredrik Lundh, Jun 30, 2006
    #10
  11. Alok wrote:
    > "reddit broke (sorry)"
    > "looks like we shouldn't have stopped using lisp..."
    >
    > See screenshot at
    > http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1773/1980/1600/reddit-broke.jpg
    >
    > Whether they truly repent not using lisp or otherwise, their site
    > appears to be 3 times slower ...


    Hi Alok,

    Supposedly, the Reddit team had a bit of remorse (though of course, we
    should take the following writeup with a grain of salt; maybe there are
    more in-depth sources online):
    "If we could do it all over again, we'd still be using Lisp. Probably."
    "Reddit: Stick with Lisp. If you want it done right, do it yourself-
    hosting- Avoid A+.net"
    http://notelab.infogami.com/startupschool2006

    The Reddit owners offered to write up their Lisp experiences. Did they?
    If not, then of course we have no real ability to verify their claims.
    (Particularly given that companies are far too secretive to let us
    actually go there and evaulate their claims for ourselves.) The problem
    was illustrated by Dvorak's admission that he skillfully antagonized
    the Apple world to drive traffic; I don't know how much Reddit was
    helped by this little soap opera, if at all, but these are problems.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAWDYaWAVQQ


    Tayssir
     
    Tayssir John Gabbour, Jun 30, 2006
    #11
  12. Alok

    Alok Guest

    Luis M. González wrote:
    > Alok wrote:
    > > I was merely describing my experience and inviting others' response
    > > about theirs.

    >
    > That's exactly what I'm doing.


    You misinterpret, I was talking about my experience with the site and
    inviting response from other people about their experience with the
    site. Now, I don't know much about python or lisp, but I have read
    about this web-site's history with the two programming languages. And
    hence I chose to post in comp.lang.lisp and comp.lang.python.

    Now if there were a reddit.technology.lisp or
    reddit.technology.python, and if they had the same traction as these
    usenet groups, then I could have posted there. But that was not an
    option was it.

    >
    > > Please don't misconstrue that as a blame on any language.

    >
    > I think it can be interpreted in many ways.


    Can you please explain what your interpretation is?

    > Now if you're not ready to read other people's oppinions, don't ask.
    >


    Now, I think you are unfairly prejudiced about my not wanting to read
    other people's opinion. I would rather have a 1000 acrid responses to
    something I write and learn from it, than post into a responseless
    vacuum.

    > > And of course, I disagree with your comments about ridicule etc.

    >
    > Ok.
     
    Alok, Jun 30, 2006
    #12
  13. Alok

    Kay Schluehr Guest

    Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
    > Alok wrote:
    > > "reddit broke (sorry)"
    > > "looks like we shouldn't have stopped using lisp..."
    > >
    > > See screenshot at
    > > http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1773/1980/1600/reddit-broke.jpg
    > >
    > > Whether they truly repent not using lisp or otherwise, their site
    > > appears to be 3 times slower ...

    >
    > Hi Alok,
    >
    > Supposedly, the Reddit team had a bit of remorse (though of course, we
    > should take the following writeup with a grain of salt; maybe there are
    > more in-depth sources online):
    > "If we could do it all over again, we'd still be using Lisp. Probably."
    > "Reddit: Stick with Lisp. If you want it done right, do it yourself-
    > hosting- Avoid A+.net"
    > http://notelab.infogami.com/startupschool2006


    Please, since this is a Python+Lisp cross-thread and you seem to have
    background info: can you explain why Lisp hackers have turned
    themselves into Python newbies for Reddit impl. and finally complain
    about the language switch? What was cause for their decision to use
    Python in the first place?
     
    Kay Schluehr, Jun 30, 2006
    #13
  14. Kay Schluehr wrote:
    > Tayssir John Gabbour wrote:
    > > Supposedly, the Reddit team had a bit of remorse (though of course, we
    > > should take the following writeup with a grain of salt; maybe there are
    > > more in-depth sources online):
    > > "If we could do it all over again, we'd still be using Lisp. Probably."
    > > "Reddit: Stick with Lisp. If you want it done right, do it yourself-
    > > hosting- Avoid A+.net"
    > > http://notelab.infogami.com/startupschool2006

    >
    > Please, since this is a Python+Lisp cross-thread and you seem to have
    > background info: can you explain why Lisp hackers have turned
    > themselves into Python newbies for Reddit impl. and finally complain
    > about the language switch? What was cause for their decision to use
    > Python in the first place?


    Hi Kay,

    The claim was that their Lisp implementation, CMUCL, had threading
    problems which regularly crashed their site.
    http://lemonodor.com/archives/001301.html

    Also, they had concerns about the user community's size (at least the
    one surrounding the free Common Lisp implementations).
    http://xach.livejournal.com/66285.html

    All right, serious criticism of Lisp is a joy to read, as we're a
    technical audience... but how serious was this criticism? Apparently
    the original big announcement of their switch was deleted from the blog
    (at least the links are dead and I can't find it in a few secs of
    googling), but I remember they promised to write up their experiences
    with Lisp to help others if enough people asked. I was among those who
    encouraged them to do this, but I haven't heard a word more about this
    writeup.

    This would've made their claims easier to verify. As it stands, I don't
    know if they just had weird glitches with shoddy hardware from their
    service provider, or whether they seriously reached out to the
    community so it could help them. And they didn't even offer newbies the
    benefit of a helpful, critical writeup. (If it is indeed true they
    didn't follow up on the writeup.)

    For that matter, a nasty side-effect is it prompts some to heavily
    criticize Python in the same loose manner, out of a defensive feeling.


    Tayssir
     
    Tayssir John Gabbour, Jun 30, 2006
    #14
  15. Alok wrote:
    > Luis M. González wrote:
    > > Alok wrote:
    > > > I was merely describing my experience and inviting others' response
    > > > about theirs.

    > >
    > > That's exactly what I'm doing.

    >
    > You misinterpret, I was talking about my experience with the site and
    > inviting response from other people about their experience with the
    > site. Now, I don't know much about python or lisp, but I have read
    > about this web-site's history with the two programming languages. And
    > hence I chose to post in comp.lang.lisp and comp.lang.python.
    >
    > Now if there were a reddit.technology.lisp or
    > reddit.technology.python, and if they had the same traction as these
    > usenet groups, then I could have posted there. But that was not an
    > option was it.
    >
    > >
    > > > Please don't misconstrue that as a blame on any language.

    > >
    > > I think it can be interpreted in many ways.

    >
    > Can you please explain what your interpretation is?
    >
    > > Now if you're not ready to read other people's oppinions, don't ask.
    > >

    >
    > Now, I think you are unfairly prejudiced about my not wanting to read
    > other people's opinion. I would rather have a 1000 acrid responses to
    > something I write and learn from it, than post into a responseless
    > vacuum.
    >
    > > > And of course, I disagree with your comments about ridicule etc.

    > >
    > > Ok.


    Dear Alok,

    I think is you who are misinterpreting me (or I didn't make myself
    clear).
    You posted a link to a joke from reddit, which is perfectly fine, is
    very funny.
    But below, you added a comment wondering whether the change from Lisp
    to Python may be a reason for a huge performance loss.

    I'm not a python bigot, but I just said that blamming a language choice
    for such a deficieny was ridiculous. There are hundreds of very complex
    web sites developed in python that doesn't suffer these problems, and,
    even if they are developed in python, you must take into account which
    other technologies they are using for deployment (web server,
    framework, mod_python, cgi, fastcgi, hardware, etc, etc...).
    Also, the fact that someone could be more versed or knowledgeable of
    one language compared to another one, doesn't make it better or worse.
    This is s subjective fact, and has nothing to do with the language. It
    has to do with who's using the language.

    Also, as someone pointed out above, don't you think that the huge
    incresement of traffic since they switched to python may have had
    something to do with this problem?
    Perhaps, their lack of experise in a new language didn't prepare them
    for facing such a challenge. Who knows? Yeah, perhaps if they sticked
    to Lisp, they could have handled the problem better. They are lispers,
    aren't they?

    Anyway, you posted a comment, you asked for opinons, you got mine.
    Sorry if I ofended you. It wasn't my intention.
    I'll make sure I place more smileys in my posts to avoid hurting
    feelings from now on :)

    Luis
     
    =?iso-8859-1?q?Luis_M._Gonz=E1lez?=, Jun 30, 2006
    #15
  16. Alok

    Alok Guest

    Luis M. González wrote:

    Luis,
    Thank you very much for you detailed and careful response. I very
    much appreciate your comments.

    > Alok wrote:
    > > Luis M. González wrote:
    > > > Alok wrote:
    > > > > I was merely describing my experience and inviting others' response
    > > > > about theirs.
    > > >
    > > > That's exactly what I'm doing.

    > >
    > > You misinterpret, I was talking about my experience with the site and
    > > inviting response from other people about their experience with the
    > > site. Now, I don't know much about python or lisp, but I have read
    > > about this web-site's history with the two programming languages. And
    > > hence I chose to post in comp.lang.lisp and comp.lang.python.
    > >
    > > Now if there were a reddit.technology.lisp or
    > > reddit.technology.python, and if they had the same traction as these
    > > usenet groups, then I could have posted there. But that was not an
    > > option was it.
    > >
    > > >
    > > > > Please don't misconstrue that as a blame on any language.
    > > >
    > > > I think it can be interpreted in many ways.

    > >
    > > Can you please explain what your interpretation is?
    > >
    > > > Now if you're not ready to read other people's oppinions, don't ask.
    > > >

    > >
    > > Now, I think you are unfairly prejudiced about my not wanting to read
    > > other people's opinion. I would rather have a 1000 acrid responses to
    > > something I write and learn from it, than post into a responseless
    > > vacuum.
    > >
    > > > > And of course, I disagree with your comments about ridicule etc.
    > > >
    > > > Ok.

    >
    > Dear Alok,
    >
    > I think is you who are misinterpreting me (or I didn't make myself
    > clear).
    > You posted a link to a joke from reddit, which is perfectly fine, is
    > very funny.
    > But below, you added a comment wondering whether the change from Lisp
    > to Python may be a reason for a huge performance loss.


    I did not intend to comment on Python or Lisp but yes, I have aired my
    subjective observations about the site and in the context of the
    technologies used. And I hoped that other users may respond with
    comments if they have experienced any similar issues using the site.

    If I have implied an indication that the change from Lisp to Python was
    the reason that the site became 3 times slower, then I have slipped in
    unintended innuendos. And I must accept that I have to be more careful
    about it.

    >
    > I'm not a python bigot, but I just said that blamming a language choice
    > for such a deficieny was ridiculous. There are hundreds of very complex
    > web sites developed in python that doesn't suffer these problems, and,
    > even if they are developed in python, you must take into account which
    > other technologies they are using for deployment (web server,
    > framework, mod_python, cgi, fastcgi, hardware, etc, etc...).
    > Also, the fact that someone could be more versed or knowledgeable of
    > one language compared to another one, doesn't make it better or worse.
    > This is s subjective fact, and has nothing to do with the language. It
    > has to do with who's using the language.
    >
    > Also, as someone pointed out above, don't you think that the huge
    > incresement of traffic since they switched to python may have had
    > something to do with this problem?
    > Perhaps, their lack of experise in a new language didn't prepare them
    > for facing such a challenge. Who knows? Yeah, perhaps if they sticked
    > to Lisp, they could have handled the problem better. They are lispers,
    > aren't they?
    >
    > Anyway, you posted a comment, you asked for opinons, you got mine.
    > Sorry if I ofended you. It wasn't my intention.


    There is no offense taken or hurt feelings. But yes, detailed responses
    (and smileys) do make conversations more rewarding.

    > I'll make sure I place more smileys in my posts to avoid hurting
    > feelings from now on :)
    >
    > Luis
     
    Alok, Jun 30, 2006
    #16
  17. Alok

    Alok Guest

    Fredrik Lundh wrote:
    > "Alok" wrote:
    >
    > > While posting a comment on http://www.reddit.com I got an error page
    > > with the following curious statement on it.
    > >
    > > "reddit broke (sorry)"
    > > "looks like we shouldn't have stopped using lisp..."
    > >
    > > See screenshot at
    > > http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1773/1980/1600/reddit-broke.jpg
    > >
    > > Whether they truly repent not using lisp or otherwise, their site
    > > appears to be 3 times slower ...

    >
    > since when?


    Their site was more responsive last year. Especially the form
    submission page to create new posts. And also being able to refresh the
    page with your recent comments in them.

    > don't you think that the massive growth in usage that they've been
    > seeing lately might have something to do with that ?
    > </F>


    You are right it definitely has a major impact, I wish they scale up
    their hardware in line with their possible growth.
    -A
     
    Alok, Jun 30, 2006
    #17
  18. Alok

    Guest

    Kay Schluehr wrote:
    >
    > Please, since this is a Python+Lisp cross-thread and you seem to have
    > background info: can you explain why Lisp hackers have turned
    > themselves into Python newbies for Reddit impl. and finally complain
    > about the language switch? What was cause for their decision to use
    > Python in the first place?


    Basically, it was the same complaint everyone else has about common
    lisp. It's an awesome language, but there are no reliable standard
    crossplatform (and free) libraries for threading and sockets. They
    were using FreeBSD as a server, and (trying to) use powerbooks as a dev
    platform, and that seriously restricted viable CL implemenations.

    http://redditblog.blogspot.com/2005/12/night-of-living-python.html
    http://redditblog.blogspot.com/2005/12/on-lisp.html
     
    , Jun 30, 2006
    #18
  19. wrote:
    > Kay Schluehr wrote:
    >> Please, since this is a Python+Lisp cross-thread and you seem to have
    >> background info: can you explain why Lisp hackers have turned
    >> themselves into Python newbies for Reddit impl. and finally complain
    >> about the language switch? What was cause for their decision to use
    >> Python in the first place?

    >
    > Basically, it was the same complaint everyone else has about common
    > lisp. It's an awesome language, but there are no reliable standard
    > crossplatform (and free) libraries for threading and sockets. They
    > were using FreeBSD as a server, and (trying to) use powerbooks as a dev
    > platform, and that seriously restricted viable CL implemenations.
    >
    > http://redditblog.blogspot.com/2005/12/night-of-living-python.html
    > http://redditblog.blogspot.com/2005/12/on-lisp.html


    Compare this to that report:
    http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/33fec2394f38546b


    Pascal

    --
    3rd European Lisp Workshop
    July 3 - Nantes, France - co-located with ECOOP 2006
    http://lisp-ecoop06.bknr.net/
     
    Pascal Costanza, Jun 30, 2006
    #19
  20. Fredrik Lundh, Jun 30, 2006
    #20
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    Paul Duncan
    Dec 15, 2006
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