Redesign of Python site

[rt lange]

came across this page searching feedster.
dont know whether this is the official resdesign or just a proposal;
but the mockups look very nice.

http://www.pollenation.net/journal/index.php?p=37&c=1

main page mockup:
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main.html

interior page:
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior.html

 

[Michael Geary]

Thanks *very* much for pointing that out. This proposed redesign has some of
the worst typography I've seen in a long time--it's just totally
unacceptable. I left detailed comments on the site mentioned below, and I
guess I should make some noise on the appropriate mailing lists too.

I just hope it's not too late to head off this train wreck of a redesign.
<sigh>

-Mike

 

[Martin Maney]

came across this page searching feedster.
dont know whether this is the official resdesign or just a proposal;
but the mockups look very nice.

They look very nice if you're just taking in the view: they look like
crap if you want to actually read the content. I've posted a more
detailed complaint there, but in brief "I say it's spinach..."

 

[Michael Geary]

They look very nice if you're just taking in the view: they look like
crap if you want to actually read the content. I've posted a more
detailed complaint there, but in brief "I say it's spinach..."

Hey, I *like* spinach.

But I'm glad I'm not the only one who is dismayed by the unreadable text in
this redesign. I got a chuckle out of your "getting just the right shade of
gray" and posted a follow-up with some more contrast measurements:

http://www.pollenation.net/journal/index.php?p=37&c=1

-Mike

 

[Terry Reedy]

came across this page searching feedster.
dont know whether this is the official resdesign or just a proposal;
but the mockups look very nice.

YUCK< YUCK< YUCK.

http://www.pollenation.net/journal/index.php?p=37&c=1

main page mockup:
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main.html

The old site is very readable. Using IE6, I need a magnifying glass
to read this page. This is done in the arrogant style of 'we know
better than you what type size you should have'. Also known as the
'control the user experience' school. Awful. For me, one of the
worse pages I have ever seen. Anti-Pythonic.

interior page:
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior.html

Only slightly better. The low contrast gray-on-gray comments page is
also barely readable. (Others reported the same.) For my
less-than-perfect 50+ year-old eyes, it is physically the WORST
comments page I have ever seen. It is a case study in
anti-accessibility design. The person responsible should not touch
our site.

Terry J. Reedy



Terry J. Reedy


only slightly better.

 

[Terry Reedy]

Currently just a proposal.

To me, the the purpose of the Python site is to convey information to
lots of different programmers. It should therefore be physically
readable by as many people as possible. and not just 20-30 year olds
with 20-20 vision.

The current site is, for me, one of the most readable sites aronnd.
The text colors work and it lets Internet Explorer adjust the text
size.

The pollenation site is one of the worst I have seen. The mockup page
has teeny type that IE will not enlarge. (Telling me to use another
browser is besides the point. Lots of people will continue to visit
with IE even if I do switch.) The comments page has barely readable
dark-brown gray type on a lighter brown-gray background.. These pages
should only be used as examples of what not to do and how not to spoil
what we already have.

If you care about this subject, subscribe to the mailing list at
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-redesign

I care that the site remain physically readable and that it remain a
vehicle for information rather than childish egos. If you are
subscribed and could convey this concern, I would appreciate it. I
otherwise do not have too much concern about particulars and therefore
not much to contribute.

Terry J. Reedy

 

[Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters]

|To me, the the purpose of the Python site is to convey information to
|lots of different programmers. It should therefore be physically
|readable by as many people as possible. and not just 20-30 year olds
|with 20-20 vision.

I completely agree with most posters on the demo webpage redesign. The
fonts are horribly, unreadably small. And the whole is cluttered, busy,
and difficult to get visually oriented to. As others observed, the
low-contrast colors make the small fonts EVEN MORE difficult to read.

Yours, Lulu...

 

[John Roth]

came across this page searching feedster.
dont know whether this is the official resdesign or just a proposal;
but the mockups look very nice.

http://www.pollenation.net/journal/index.php?p=37&c=1

main page mockup:
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main.html

interior page:
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior.html

I have to agree with the other posters on this thread. I certainly
would not want to read it for very long. I suppose I could ignore
the cute graphics that take too long to download since this is a
marketing oriented design, but the fonts and lack of contrast
are a show-stopper.

Whoever did this design should read at least one of the
books on horrible web page designs.

John Roth

 

[Stephan Diehl]

The current site is, for me, one of the most readable sites aronnd.
The text colors work and it lets Internet Explorer adjust the text
size.

The pollenation site is one of the worst I have seen. The mockup page
has teeny type that IE will not enlarge. (Telling me to use another
browser is besides the point. Lots of people will continue to visit
with IE even if I do switch.) The comments page has barely readable
dark-brown gray type on a lighter brown-gray background.. These pages
should only be used as examples of what not to do and how not to spoil
what we already have.

It is absolutely beyond me, how IE should display the mockpage any
differently than other browsers.
On Mozilla, the page loads as:

<body>
<img src="python-web6.png" />
</body>

Stephan

 

[John Roth]

It is absolutely beyond me, how IE should display the mockpage any
differently than other browsers.
On Mozilla, the page loads as:

<body>
<img src="python-web6.png" />
</body>

It loads the same on IE. The problem that Terry is complaining
about results from it being a mockup: you're displaying a PNG, so it's
understandable that attempts to resize the type or change the
foreground or background colors won't work.

John Roth

 

[Aahz]

I care that the site remain physically readable and that it remain
a vehicle for information rather than childish egos. If you are
subscribed and could convey this concern, I would appreciate it. I
otherwise do not have too much concern about particulars and therefore
not much to contribute.

Speaking as the champion of Lynx, I absolutely agree. ;-) Don't worry,
I'll veto anything that doesn't have excellent readability, though I
don't know to what extent I personally will check against browsers other
than Lynx and Opera.

 

[Terry Reedy]

Speaking as the champion of Lynx, I absolutely agree. ;-) Don't worry,
I'll veto anything that doesn't have excellent readability, though I
don't know to what extent I personally will check against browsers other
than Lynx and Opera.

Email me a URL of a serious proposal and I will view with IE and reply
with comment re readability. Or just post and let several people
test.

Terry J. Reedy

 

[Sheila King]

Perhaps the people who have commented on the site should realise it's a
proposal and a work in progress. As constructive comments go the only
feedback I have gathered is that the fonts are too small and the
contrast is
a little low. I've adjusted contrast on key elements and also increased
the
font size. These pages are here :

http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main-2.html
http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior-2.html

also bearing in mind that the html page will be accessible and hence
allow
text resizing here is a sample of +1 text size.

http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main-2larger.html
http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior-2larger.html

My suggestions:

Go with the +1 font size as the default. The tinier font is nice for
fitting lots of data into a page, but not so good for readability.

Also, on the content pages put more white space between lines (i.e. the
vertical number of pixels between the bottom of one line and the top of the
next).

 

[Aahz]

Email me a URL of a serious proposal and I will view with IE and reply
with comment re readability. Or just post and let several people
test.

It will likely be that the top candidates get posted to c.l.py.announce.

 

[Eduardo Alvarez]

YUCK< YUCK< YUCK.


The old site is very readable. Using IE6, I need a magnifying glass
to read this page. This is done in the arrogant style of 'we know
better than you what type size you should have'. Also known as the
'control the user experience' school. Awful. For me, one of the
worse pages I have ever seen. Anti-Pythonic.


Only slightly better. The low contrast gray-on-gray comments page is
also barely readable. (Others reported the same.) For my
less-than-perfect 50+ year-old eyes, it is physically the WORST
comments page I have ever seen. It is a case study in
anti-accessibility design. The person responsible should not touch
our site.

Terry J. Reedy



Terry J. Reedy


only slightly better.

mmmm...I only seem to see an image of the proposal. is it possible to
see an actual HTML version of it? The easiest test in my opinion would
be to run it by lynx, and see how readable it is then...

 

[Robin Becker]

came across this page searching feedster.
dont know whether this is the official resdesign or just a proposal;
but the mockups look very nice.

http://www.pollenation.net/journal/index.php?p=37&c=1

main page mockup:
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main.html

interior page:
http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior.html

It looks nice, but is really slow or is that just the demo site? Using
those big images really slows things down for me at least.

 

[Skip Montanaro]

Terry> Email me a URL of a serious proposal and I will view with IE and
Terry> reply with comment re readability. Or just post and let several
Terry> people test.

The place to follow this activity is on the pydotorg-redesign mailing list.

Skip

 

[Kevin Dahlhausen]

never come back to this site" etc... The odd thing is

that we thought that the site was significantly more
usable than before, after all the redesign was based on
an extensive usability testing.

(It was a pretty cool experiment, observing users
trough a one way mirror as they attempted predefined
tasks, multiple cameras and microphones tracking
what users do, it is a great thing to do if you have
the chance)

I second that - watching my first web-app usability study really
opened my eyes. It's worth doing at any level.

It was pretty hard to digest this hate mail, it was as if these
people had zero respect for all the hard work we've put in,
in fact most email was actually very rude and rushed,
yet the only common ingredient in all of these emails was
the perceived infallibility of the authors themselves.

Try to remember that that email came from a very small percentage of
the community and that most users of Python are very grateful of the
work people put into Python and the community around it. You'll get
goof balls wherever you go.

 

[Jeff Epler]

I don't think the design is that bad. Here are my thoughts:

MAKE SURE THE DAMNED THING FILLS MY SCREEN, instead of using 80%, or
66%, or 400px, like so many shite websites out there. (yes, I know these
are images)

When this is converted to CSS, a "high contrast" style sheet should be
offered because there are many users who would benefit from it.
Similarly, make sure this site is good for links (text-only) browser
users.

Obviously, the links available directly from the front page need careful
consideration. I visit python.org 90% of the time for documentation
(though usually through a bookmark to python.org/doc/lib), 5% for PEPs,
5% for links to sf tracker items (using URLs provided in e-mail), and 1%
(oops, I'm up to 101%) to download a new Python release. My needs are
probably atypical, though.

Why are you calling python2.3.tar.gz a "binary"? That file contains the
source code to Python, not any binary executable. Bow to the forces of
marketing and include stupid meaningless pictures and slogans if you must,
but at least keep the page technically correct!

Jeff

 

[A.M. Kuchling]

Obviously, the links available directly from the front page need careful
consideration. I visit python.org 90% of the time for documentation
(though usually through a bookmark to python.org/doc/lib), 5% for PEPs,
5% for links to sf tracker items (using URLs provided in e-mail), and 1%
(oops, I'm up to 101%) to download a new Python release. My needs are
probably atypical, though.

So, are the modified links at http://www.amk.ca/python.org.html
an improvement? Note the different sidebar and top navbar links.

(Hmmm... there's no PEP link, though.)

--amk