Redesign of Python site

Discussion in 'Python' started by rt lange, Sep 7, 2003.

  1. rt lange

    rt lange Guest

    rt lange, Sep 7, 2003
    #1
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  2. Thanks *very* much for pointing that out. This proposed redesign has some of
    the worst typography I've seen in a long time--it's just totally
    unacceptable. I left detailed comments on the site mentioned below, and I
    guess I should make some noise on the appropriate mailing lists too.

    I just hope it's not too late to head off this train wreck of a redesign.
    <sigh>

    -Mike

    rt lange wrote:
    > came across this page searching feedster.
    > dont know whether this is the official resdesign or just a proposal;
    > but the mockups look very nice.
    >
    > http://www.pollenation.net/journal/index.php?p=37&c=1
    >
    > main page mockup:
    > http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main.html
    >
    > interior page:
    > http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior.html
    Michael Geary, Sep 7, 2003
    #2
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  3. rt lange

    Martin Maney Guest

    rt lange <> wrote:
    > came across this page searching feedster.
    > dont know whether this is the official resdesign or just a proposal;
    > but the mockups look very nice.


    They look very nice if you're just taking in the view: they look like
    crap if you want to actually read the content. I've posted a more
    detailed complaint there, but in brief "I say it's spinach..."

    --
    There's one way to find out if a man is honest: ask him;
    if he says yes, you know he's crooked. -- Twain
    Martin Maney, Sep 7, 2003
    #3
  4. Martin Maney wrote:
    > They look very nice if you're just taking in the view: they look like
    > crap if you want to actually read the content. I've posted a more
    > detailed complaint there, but in brief "I say it's spinach..."


    Hey, I *like* spinach. :)

    But I'm glad I'm not the only one who is dismayed by the unreadable text in
    this redesign. I got a chuckle out of your "getting just the right shade of
    gray" and posted a follow-up with some more contrast measurements:

    http://www.pollenation.net/journal/index.php?p=37&c=1

    -Mike
    Michael Geary, Sep 7, 2003
    #4
  5. rt lange

    Terry Reedy Guest

    "rt lange" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns93EEDC144D362whiteywidowyahoocom@216.77.188.17...
    > came across this page searching feedster.
    > dont know whether this is the official resdesign or just a proposal;
    > but the mockups look very nice.


    YUCK< YUCK< YUCK.

    > http://www.pollenation.net/journal/index.php?p=37&c=1
    >
    > main page mockup:
    > http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main.html


    The old site is very readable. Using IE6, I need a magnifying glass
    to read this page. This is done in the arrogant style of 'we know
    better than you what type size you should have'. Also known as the
    'control the user experience' school. Awful. For me, one of the
    worse pages I have ever seen. Anti-Pythonic.

    > interior page:
    > http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior.html


    Only slightly better. The low contrast gray-on-gray comments page is
    also barely readable. (Others reported the same.) For my
    less-than-perfect 50+ year-old eyes, it is physically the WORST
    comments page I have ever seen. It is a case study in
    anti-accessibility design. The person responsible should not touch
    our site.

    Terry J. Reedy



    Terry J. Reedy


    only slightly better.
    Terry Reedy, Sep 7, 2003
    #5
  6. rt lange

    Terry Reedy Guest

    "Aahz" <> wrote in message
    news:bjebpo$h85$...
    > Currently just a proposal.


    To me, the the purpose of the Python site is to convey information to
    lots of different programmers. It should therefore be physically
    readable by as many people as possible. and not just 20-30 year olds
    with 20-20 vision.

    The current site is, for me, one of the most readable sites aronnd.
    The text colors work and it lets Internet Explorer adjust the text
    size.

    The pollenation site is one of the worst I have seen. The mockup page
    has teeny type that IE will not enlarge. (Telling me to use another
    browser is besides the point. Lots of people will continue to visit
    with IE even if I do switch.) The comments page has barely readable
    dark-brown gray type on a lighter brown-gray background.. These pages
    should only be used as examples of what not to do and how not to spoil
    what we already have.

    > If you care about this subject, subscribe to the mailing list at
    > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-redesign


    I care that the site remain physically readable and that it remain a
    vehicle for information rather than childish egos. If you are
    subscribed and could convey this concern, I would appreciate it. I
    otherwise do not have too much concern about particulars and therefore
    not much to contribute.

    Terry J. Reedy
    Terry Reedy, Sep 7, 2003
    #6
  7. "Terry Reedy" <> wrote previously:
    |To me, the the purpose of the Python site is to convey information to
    |lots of different programmers. It should therefore be physically
    |readable by as many people as possible. and not just 20-30 year olds
    |with 20-20 vision.

    I completely agree with most posters on the demo webpage redesign. The
    fonts are horribly, unreadably small. And the whole is cluttered, busy,
    and difficult to get visually oriented to. As others observed, the
    low-contrast colors make the small fonts EVEN MORE difficult to read.

    Yours, Lulu...

    --
    Keeping medicines from the bloodstreams of the sick; food from the bellies
    of the hungry; books from the hands of the uneducated; technology from the
    underdeveloped; and putting advocates of freedom in prisons. Intellectual
    property is to the 21st century what the slave trade was to the 16th.
    Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters, Sep 7, 2003
    #7
  8. rt lange

    John Roth Guest

    "rt lange" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns93EEDC144D362whiteywidowyahoocom@216.77.188.17...
    > came across this page searching feedster.
    > dont know whether this is the official resdesign or just a proposal;
    > but the mockups look very nice.
    >
    > http://www.pollenation.net/journal/index.php?p=37&c=1
    >
    > main page mockup:
    > http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main.html
    >
    > interior page:
    > http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior.html


    I have to agree with the other posters on this thread. I certainly
    would not want to read it for very long. I suppose I could ignore
    the cute graphics that take too long to download since this is a
    marketing oriented design, but the fonts and lack of contrast
    are a show-stopper.

    Whoever did this design should read at least one of the
    books on horrible web page designs.

    John Roth
    John Roth, Sep 7, 2003
    #8

  9. >
    > The current site is, for me, one of the most readable sites aronnd.
    > The text colors work and it lets Internet Explorer adjust the text
    > size.
    >
    > The pollenation site is one of the worst I have seen. The mockup page
    > has teeny type that IE will not enlarge. (Telling me to use another
    > browser is besides the point. Lots of people will continue to visit
    > with IE even if I do switch.) The comments page has barely readable
    > dark-brown gray type on a lighter brown-gray background.. These pages
    > should only be used as examples of what not to do and how not to spoil
    > what we already have.


    It is absolutely beyond me, how IE should display the mockpage any
    differently than other browsers.
    On Mozilla, the page loads as:

    <body>
    <img src="python-web6.png" />
    </body>

    Stephan
    Stephan Diehl, Sep 7, 2003
    #9
  10. rt lange

    John Roth Guest

    "Stephan Diehl" <> wrote in message
    news:bjf60f$iqc$07$-online.com...
    >
    > >
    > > The current site is, for me, one of the most readable sites aronnd.
    > > The text colors work and it lets Internet Explorer adjust the text
    > > size.
    > >
    > > The pollenation site is one of the worst I have seen. The mockup page
    > > has teeny type that IE will not enlarge. (Telling me to use another
    > > browser is besides the point. Lots of people will continue to visit
    > > with IE even if I do switch.) The comments page has barely readable
    > > dark-brown gray type on a lighter brown-gray background.. These pages
    > > should only be used as examples of what not to do and how not to spoil
    > > what we already have.

    >
    > It is absolutely beyond me, how IE should display the mockpage any
    > differently than other browsers.
    > On Mozilla, the page loads as:
    >
    > <body>
    > <img src="python-web6.png" />
    > </body>


    It loads the same on IE. The problem that Terry is complaining
    about results from it being a mockup: you're displaying a PNG, so it's
    understandable that attempts to resize the type or change the
    foreground or background colors won't work.

    John Roth
    >
    > Stephan
    >
    John Roth, Sep 7, 2003
    #10
  11. rt lange

    Aahz Guest

    In article <>,
    Terry Reedy <> wrote:
    >
    >I care that the site remain physically readable and that it remain
    >a vehicle for information rather than childish egos. If you are
    >subscribed and could convey this concern, I would appreciate it. I
    >otherwise do not have too much concern about particulars and therefore
    >not much to contribute.


    Speaking as the champion of Lynx, I absolutely agree. ;-) Don't worry,
    I'll veto anything that doesn't have excellent readability, though I
    don't know to what extent I personally will check against browsers other
    than Lynx and Opera.
    --
    Aahz () <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects
    with useful practice. --Aahz
    Aahz, Sep 7, 2003
    #11
  12. rt lange

    Terry Reedy Guest

    "Aahz" <> wrote in message
    news:bjfm7k$fi1$...
    > Speaking as the champion of Lynx, I absolutely agree. ;-) Don't

    worry,
    > I'll veto anything that doesn't have excellent readability, though I
    > don't know to what extent I personally will check against browsers

    other
    > than Lynx and Opera.


    Email me a URL of a serious proposal and I will view with IE and reply
    with comment re readability. Or just post and let several people
    test.

    Terry J. Reedy
    Terry Reedy, Sep 7, 2003
    #12
  13. rt lange

    Sheila King Guest

    Re: Comments on Python Redesign

    On Sun, 7 Sep 2003 12:42:19 +0100, "Tim Parkin"
    <> wrote in comp.lang.python in article
    <>:

    > Perhaps the people who have commented on the site should realise it's a
    > proposal and a work in progress. As constructive comments go the only
    > feedback I have gathered is that the fonts are too small and the
    > contrast is
    > a little low. I've adjusted contrast on key elements and also increased
    > the
    > font size. These pages are here :
    >
    > http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main-2.html
    > http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior-2.html
    >
    > also bearing in mind that the html page will be accessible and hence
    > allow
    > text resizing here is a sample of +1 text size.
    >
    > http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main-2larger.html
    > http://pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior-2larger.html


    My suggestions:

    Go with the +1 font size as the default. The tinier font is nice for
    fitting lots of data into a page, but not so good for readability.

    Also, on the content pages put more white space between lines (i.e. the
    vertical number of pixels between the bottom of one line and the top of the
    next).


    --
    Sheila King
    http://www.thinkspot.net/sheila/
    http://www.k12groups.org/
    Sheila King, Sep 7, 2003
    #13
  14. rt lange

    Aahz Guest

    In article <>,
    Terry Reedy <> wrote:
    >"Aahz" <> wrote in message
    >news:bjfm7k$fi1$...
    >>
    >> Speaking as the champion of Lynx, I absolutely agree. ;-) Don't worry,
    >> I'll veto anything that doesn't have excellent readability, though I
    >> don't know to what extent I personally will check against browsers other
    >> than Lynx and Opera.

    >
    >Email me a URL of a serious proposal and I will view with IE and reply
    >with comment re readability. Or just post and let several people
    >test.


    It will likely be that the top candidates get posted to c.l.py.announce.
    --
    Aahz () <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects
    with useful practice. --Aahz
    Aahz, Sep 7, 2003
    #14
  15. In article <>, Terry Reedy wrote:
    >
    > "rt lange" <> wrote in message
    > news:Xns93EEDC144D362whiteywidowyahoocom@216.77.188.17...
    >> came across this page searching feedster.
    >> dont know whether this is the official resdesign or just a proposal;
    >> but the mockups look very nice.

    >
    > YUCK< YUCK< YUCK.
    >
    >> http://www.pollenation.net/journal/index.php?p=37&c=1
    >>
    >> main page mockup:
    >> http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main.html

    >
    > The old site is very readable. Using IE6, I need a magnifying glass
    > to read this page. This is done in the arrogant style of 'we know
    > better than you what type size you should have'. Also known as the
    > 'control the user experience' school. Awful. For me, one of the
    > worse pages I have ever seen. Anti-Pythonic.
    >
    >> interior page:
    >> http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior.html

    >
    > Only slightly better. The low contrast gray-on-gray comments page is
    > also barely readable. (Others reported the same.) For my
    > less-than-perfect 50+ year-old eyes, it is physically the WORST
    > comments page I have ever seen. It is a case study in
    > anti-accessibility design. The person responsible should not touch
    > our site.
    >
    > Terry J. Reedy
    >
    >
    >
    > Terry J. Reedy
    >
    >
    > only slightly better.
    >
    >


    mmmm...I only seem to see an image of the proposal. is it possible to
    see an actual HTML version of it? The easiest test in my opinion would
    be to run it by lynx, and see how readable it is then...

    --
    Eduardo Alvarez http://www.great-atuin.net/~punga
    (offline, at the moment)
    "Stercus, stercus stercus, moriturus sum"
    -- Rincewind the Wizzard, "Interesting Times"
    Eduardo Alvarez, Sep 7, 2003
    #15
  16. rt lange

    Robin Becker Guest

    In article <Xns93EEDC144D362whiteywidowyahoocom@216.77.188.17>, rt lange
    <> writes
    >came across this page searching feedster.
    >dont know whether this is the official resdesign or just a proposal;
    >but the mockups look very nice.
    >
    >http://www.pollenation.net/journal/index.php?p=37&c=1
    >
    >main page mockup:
    >http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-main.html
    >
    >interior page:
    >http://www.pollenation.net/assets/public/python-interior.html

    It looks nice, but is really slow or is that just the demo site? Using
    those big images really slows things down for me at least.
    --
    Robin Becker
    Robin Becker, Sep 7, 2003
    #16
  17. Terry> Email me a URL of a serious proposal and I will view with IE and
    Terry> reply with comment re readability. Or just post and let several
    Terry> people test.

    The place to follow this activity is on the pydotorg-redesign mailing list.

    Skip
    Skip Montanaro, Sep 7, 2003
    #17
  18. > never come back to this site" etc... The odd thing is
    > that we thought that the site was significantly more
    > usable than before, after all the redesign was based on
    > an extensive usability testing.
    >
    > (It was a pretty cool experiment, observing users
    > trough a one way mirror as they attempted predefined
    > tasks, multiple cameras and microphones tracking
    > what users do, it is a great thing to do if you have
    > the chance)


    I second that - watching my first web-app usability study really
    opened my eyes. It's worth doing at any level.

    >
    > It was pretty hard to digest this hate mail, it was as if these
    > people had zero respect for all the hard work we've put in,
    > in fact most email was actually very rude and rushed,
    > yet the only common ingredient in all of these emails was
    > the perceived infallibility of the authors themselves.


    Try to remember that that email came from a very small percentage of
    the community and that most users of Python are very grateful of the
    work people put into Python and the community around it. You'll get
    goof balls wherever you go.
    Kevin Dahlhausen, Sep 8, 2003
    #18
  19. rt lange

    Jeff Epler Guest

    I don't think the design is that bad. Here are my thoughts:

    MAKE SURE THE DAMNED THING FILLS MY SCREEN, instead of using 80%, or
    66%, or 400px, like so many shite websites out there. (yes, I know these
    are images)

    When this is converted to CSS, a "high contrast" style sheet should be
    offered because there are many users who would benefit from it.
    Similarly, make sure this site is good for links (text-only) browser
    users.

    Obviously, the links available directly from the front page need careful
    consideration. I visit python.org 90% of the time for documentation
    (though usually through a bookmark to python.org/doc/lib), 5% for PEPs,
    5% for links to sf tracker items (using URLs provided in e-mail), and 1%
    (oops, I'm up to 101%) to download a new Python release. My needs are
    probably atypical, though.

    Why are you calling python2.3.tar.gz a "binary"? That file contains the
    source code to Python, not any binary executable. Bow to the forces of
    marketing and include stupid meaningless pictures and slogans if you must,
    but at least keep the page technically correct!

    Jeff
    Jeff Epler, Sep 8, 2003
    #19
  20. On Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:06:07 -0500,
    Jeff Epler <> wrote:
    > Obviously, the links available directly from the front page need careful
    > consideration. I visit python.org 90% of the time for documentation
    > (though usually through a bookmark to python.org/doc/lib), 5% for PEPs,
    > 5% for links to sf tracker items (using URLs provided in e-mail), and 1%
    > (oops, I'm up to 101%) to download a new Python release. My needs are
    > probably atypical, though.


    So, are the modified links at http://www.amk.ca/python.org.html
    an improvement? Note the different sidebar and top navbar links.

    (Hmmm... there's no PEP link, though.)

    --amk
    A.M. Kuchling, Sep 9, 2003
    #20
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