Replacement for _target?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by leupi, Mar 7, 2008.

  1. leupi

    leupi Guest

    I know that the _target attribute has been depreciated. Is there a
    suitable replacement for it? What are your thoughts on using an
    attribute to force a new page to open in a new window? If I design a
    site with a link to another site I would prefer to have that new link
    open up in a new window so that the visitor is not whisked away from my
    site. Is this considered acceptable or is it considered intrusive to the
    user?

    Thanks,
    Todd
     
    leupi, Mar 7, 2008
    #1
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  2. leupi wrote:
    > I know that the _target attribute has been depreciated. Is there a
    > suitable replacement for it? What are your thoughts on using an
    > attribute to force a new page to open in a new window? If I design a
    > site with a link to another site I would prefer to have that new link
    > open up in a new window so that the visitor is not whisked away from my
    > site. Is this considered acceptable or is it considered intrusive to the
    > user?


    Much, much, and much discussed here. Short answer, don't. Let the user
    decide where or not to open link into another window|tab. What is
    acceptable it to use a little arrow off-site symbol commonly seen on
    sites like on wikipedia to indicate that the link goes off your site:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/monobook/external.png


    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
     
    Jonathan N. Little, Mar 7, 2008
    #2
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  3. Gazing into my crystal ball I observed leupi <> writing
    in news:JaeAj.13$FG2.7@trndny08:

    > I know that the _target attribute has been depreciated. Is there a
    > suitable replacement for it? What are your thoughts on using an
    > attribute to force a new page to open in a new window? If I design a
    > site with a link to another site I would prefer to have that new link
    > open up in a new window so that the visitor is not whisked away from my
    > site. Is this considered acceptable or is it considered intrusive to the
    > user?
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Todd
    >


    External links should open in the same window/tab. Let the user decide to
    open in a new tab/window. You could put an icon a la Wikipedia to indicate
    an external site, and/or you can put something in the title attribute.

    --
    Adrienne Boswell at Home
    Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
     
    Adrienne Boswell, Mar 7, 2008
    #3
  4. leupi wrote:

    > I know that the _target attribute has been depreciated.


    Yes, they're down to about half a euro now.

    > Is there a suitable replacement for it? What are your thoughts on using
    > an attribute to force a new page to open in a new window? If I design a
    > site with a link to another site I would prefer to have that new link
    > open up in a new window so that the visitor is not whisked away from my
    > site. Is this considered acceptable or is it considered intrusive to the
    > user?


    The latter. I'll make that decision myself.

    --
    Blinky
    Killing all posts from Google Groups
    The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
    Blinky: http://blinkynet.net
     
    Blinky the Shark, Mar 7, 2008
    #4
  5. On Mar 7, 11:36 am, leupi <> wrote:
    > I know that the _target attribute has been depreciated.


    But I seriously doubt that any browser will stop supporting it in our
    lifetimes. Probably not a good idea to have a pop-up, but the option
    to do it will never go away.
     
    Travis Newbury, Mar 7, 2008
    #5
  6. leupi

    rf Guest

    "leupi" <> wrote in message
    news:JaeAj.13$FG2.7@trndny08...
    >I know that the _target attribute has been depreciated. Is there a suitable
    >replacement for it?


    No.

    Why deprecate something and then replace it with something else. It is the
    *idea* that is deprecated.

    > What are your thoughts on using an attribute to force


    You cannot force on the web. That is why modern browsers come with an option
    to prevent web pages opening new windows.

    > a new page to open in a new window?


    Don't.

    > If I design a site with a link to another site I would prefer to have that
    > new link open up in a new window so that the visitor is not whisked away
    > from my site.


    But the visitor *is* wisked away from your site. There is a new browser
    window covering up your site. Unless the viewer is savvy enough to use the
    "close browser" button rather then the more intuitive "back" button your
    site will remain hidden forever.

    > Is this considered acceptable or is it considered intrusive to the user?


    Read the other thousands of discussions on this matter.

    --
    Richard.
     
    rf, Mar 7, 2008
    #6
  7. leupi

    Ed Mullen Guest

    leupi wrote:
    > I know that the _target attribute has been depreciated. Is there a
    > suitable replacement for it? What are your thoughts on using an
    > attribute to force a new page to open in a new window? If I design a
    > site with a link to another site I would prefer to have that new link
    > open up in a new window so that the visitor is not whisked away from my
    > site. Is this considered acceptable or is it considered intrusive to the
    > user?


    In addition to the other comments on this issue, you cannot force my
    browsers to open a new window no matter what tag/technique you use. So,
    forget wanting something that can be assured won't work for a large
    portion of the potential user base.

    --
    Ed Mullen
    http://edmullen.net
    Deja FU: The feeling that you've screwed this up before.
     
    Ed Mullen, Mar 8, 2008
    #7
  8. leupi

    dorayme Guest

    In article <>,
    Ed Mullen <> wrote:
    >
    > In addition to the other comments on this issue, you cannot force my
    > browsers to open a new window no matter what tag/technique you use.


    Oh yeah? Go to your roof Ed and see the the helicopter with men
    in black descending on ropes? They are headed to fix up - your
    (ha!) - browser preferences the way Leupi wants...

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Mar 8, 2008
    #8
  9. leupi

    Ed Mullen Guest

    dorayme wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > Ed Mullen <> wrote:
    >> In addition to the other comments on this issue, you cannot force my
    >> browsers to open a new window no matter what tag/technique you use.

    >
    > Oh yeah? Go to your roof Ed and see the the helicopter with men
    > in black descending on ropes? They are headed to fix up - your
    > (ha!) - browser preferences the way Leupi wants...
    >


    Well, crap. I didn't know military black ops where on the table in the
    discussion! Ok, never mind!!!

    --
    Ed Mullen
    http://edmullen.net
    Why do we buy hot dogs in packages of ten and buns in packages of eight?
     
    Ed Mullen, Mar 8, 2008
    #9
  10. leupi

    William Gill Guest

    leupi wrote:
    > ... so that the visitor is not whisked away from my
    > site.


    Philosophically I agree. Work hard on a site, attract a targeted
    audience then send theme down the street. So my question to you is: why
    are you linking people away. Are the links references in support of an
    idea? If so, visitors who go there should be able to view them
    independent of your page, and can return at will. However if are you
    linking them away because your content is missing something, there lies
    the problem. IMHO judicious and appropriate use of links may be your
    solution.
     
    William Gill, Mar 10, 2008
    #10
  11. leupi

    Andy Dingley Guest

    On 7 Mar, 16:36, leupi <> wrote:
    > I know that the _target attribute has been depreciated.


    It hasn't been deprecated, nor has anything changed related to the
    target attribute recently (since about 10 years ago).

    At the time HTML 4 was written, target was only considered to be
    related to frames, and frames were already seen as being a bad idea.
    Target, as a means of opening a new window, wasn't as widely used as
    it was later, mainly owing to the slower performance of browsers and
    their lack of tabbed browsing.

    Target _was_ removed from HTML 4 Strict, but it remained in HTML 4
    Transitional and has never been deprecated (that has a specific
    meaning, which this doesn't match). Depending on which version of
    history you read, this was either because target (as related to
    frames) was obsolete, or because target (as related to the exciting
    new world of dynamic HTML) wasn't adequate and it would soon be
    replaced by something better. For HTML 4 it's probably the first, for
    XHTML 1.0 to XHTML 1.1, it's the latter -- a big shiny new & improved
    target module for XHTML will be along Real Soon Now.


    So in the meantime there are _two_ concerns to worry about:

    * Is opening new windows a good idea?

    * How should new window openers be coded?


    There's no agreement on the first, other than a grudging acceptance
    (from both camps) that it depends on the context. The most hardcore
    "open everything new" advocates wouldn't suggest it for a simpel site
    nav menu, the most anti-popup coder _might_ agree to the odd one for a
    zoom window on an image gallery - provided that it was recycled
    between images and the window focus was correctly managed. "Off site"
    navigation from an "index" site (i.e. external links from wikipedia or
    google) are a more contentious case.

    There's less need for target now than there used to be. Tabbed
    browsers, Control-click to open a new window, better experienced
    users, all these mean that the concept "Let the user decide" may
    finally have some bearing on reality. A few years ago, users simply
    didn't know that they _could_ open new windows. There's some mileage
    now in the notion that it's easy for a user to open a new window when
    they want, harder to _avoid_ opening one when they don't but the site
    coder did. So make the default to not do it.

    Really though, it's up to you to decide. It's not a "bad" site whether
    it does or doesn't. Your call.


    As to how to code it, then you can do all sorts of tricks. Add it to a
    HTML 4.01 Strict page, making it invalid markup but still letting your
    validator check that you haven't used a <font> tag as well (as if you
    would). Drop back to HTML 4.01 Transitional and have completely valid
    pages, but a few pinheads telling you that this page is somehow
    "wrong" because it uses a retrograde doctype. Naturally you'll avoid
    the <font> tags whatever.

    If you do choose to use JavaScript and window.open(), then certainly
    you should use target (to support non-JS browsers). If you've already
    decided that you _will_ use popup windows, then at least do it
    properly and ignore the peanut gallery who can only squawk, "target
    bad", "Transitional bad", "Four legs good".
     
    Andy Dingley, Mar 10, 2008
    #11
  12. leupi

    Tim Streater Guest

    In article
    <>,
    Andy Dingley <> wrote:

    > On 7 Mar, 16:36, leupi <> wrote:
    > > I know that the _target attribute has been depreciated.

    >
    > It hasn't been deprecated, nor has anything changed related to the
    > target attribute recently (since about 10 years ago).
    >
    > At the time HTML 4 was written, target was only considered to be
    > related to frames, and frames were already seen as being a bad idea.
    > Target, as a means of opening a new window, wasn't as widely used as
    > it was later, mainly owing to the slower performance of browsers and
    > their lack of tabbed browsing.
    >
    > Target _was_ removed from HTML 4 Strict, but it remained in HTML 4
    > Transitional and has never been deprecated (that has a specific
    > meaning, which this doesn't match). Depending on which version of
    > history you read, this was either because target (as related to
    > frames) was obsolete, or because target (as related to the exciting
    > new world of dynamic HTML) wasn't adequate and it would soon be
    > replaced by something better. For HTML 4 it's probably the first, for
    > XHTML 1.0 to XHTML 1.1, it's the latter -- a big shiny new & improved
    > target module for XHTML will be along Real Soon Now.
    >
    >
    > So in the meantime there are _two_ concerns to worry about:
    >
    > * Is opening new windows a good idea?
    >
    > * How should new window openers be coded?
    >
    >
    > There's no agreement on the first, other than a grudging acceptance
    > (from both camps) that it depends on the context. The most hardcore
    > "open everything new" advocates wouldn't suggest it for a simpel site
    > nav menu, the most anti-popup coder _might_ agree to the odd one for a
    > zoom window on an image gallery - provided that it was recycled
    > between images and the window focus was correctly managed. "Off site"
    > navigation from an "index" site (i.e. external links from wikipedia or
    > google) are a more contentious case.
    >
    > There's less need for target now than there used to be. Tabbed
    > browsers, Control-click to open a new window, better experienced
    > users, all these mean that the concept "Let the user decide" may
    > finally have some bearing on reality. A few years ago, users simply
    > didn't know that they _could_ open new windows. There's some mileage
    > now in the notion that it's easy for a user to open a new window when
    > they want, harder to _avoid_ opening one when they don't but the site
    > coder did. So make the default to not do it.
    >
    > Really though, it's up to you to decide. It's not a "bad" site whether
    > it does or doesn't. Your call.
    >
    >
    > As to how to code it, then you can do all sorts of tricks. Add it to a
    > HTML 4.01 Strict page, making it invalid markup but still letting your
    > validator check that you haven't used a <font> tag as well (as if you
    > would). Drop back to HTML 4.01 Transitional and have completely valid
    > pages, but a few pinheads telling you that this page is somehow
    > "wrong" because it uses a retrograde doctype. Naturally you'll avoid
    > the <font> tags whatever.
    >
    > If you do choose to use JavaScript and window.open(), then certainly
    > you should use target (to support non-JS browsers). If you've already
    > decided that you _will_ use popup windows, then at least do it
    > properly and ignore the peanut gallery who can only squawk, "target
    > bad", "Transitional bad", "Four legs good".


    Useful post, thanks. I typically use it with target='_top' from with a
    frameset, since the page where the user is going from there, they will
    previously have been used to seeing not in a frameset.

    Agree about the peanut gallery.
     
    Tim Streater, Mar 10, 2008
    #12
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