Reply wasn't posted; will test new post

Discussion in 'Ruby' started by Peña, Botp, Jun 3, 2004.

  1. Peña, Botp

    Peña, Botp Guest

    Hi ALL:

    Pls forgive me in advance.

    I posted a reply today but did not see it.

    I'll like to see if new post will get posted (diff reply).

    I'm on the mailing list.

    I just noticed this problem just today.

    kind regards -botp
    Peña, Botp, Jun 3, 2004
    #1
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  2. Peña, Botp

    daz Guest

    Peña, Botp wrote:
    > Hi ALL:
    >
    > Pls forgive me in advance.
    >
    > I posted a reply today but did not see it.
    >
    > I'll like to see if new post will get posted (diff reply).
    >
    > I'm on the mailing list.
    >
    > I just noticed this problem just today.
    >
    > kind regards -botp
    >
    >


    You're right,
    www.ruby-talk.org/102230

    .... and not alone


    Can anyone see this on their News reader?
    I see it in ML mail only - No In-Reply-To: or References:, but valid mail.
    www.ruby-talk.org/102074

    Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 11:40:36 +0900
    Posted: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 12:40:27 +1000
    From: "Mehr, Assaph (Assaph)" <>
    Reply-To:
    Subject: Re: A newbie question about path
    To: (ruby-talk ML)
    Message-Id: <>
    X-ML-Name: ruby-talk
    X-Mail-Count: 102074


    daz
    daz, Jun 3, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Hi --

    On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, daz wrote:

    >
    > Peña, Botp wrote:
    > > Hi ALL:
    > >
    > > Pls forgive me in advance.
    > >
    > > I posted a reply today but did not see it.
    > >
    > > I'll like to see if new post will get posted (diff reply).
    > >
    > > I'm on the mailing list.
    > >
    > > I just noticed this problem just today.
    > >
    > > kind regards -botp
    > >
    > >

    >
    > You're right,
    > www.ruby-talk.org/102230
    >
    > .... and not alone
    >
    >
    > Can anyone see this on their News reader?
    > I see it in ML mail only - No In-Reply-To: or References:, but valid mail.
    > www.ruby-talk.org/102074


    The fix definitely hasn't fixed everything; Austin Ziegler's posts
    still aren't going through either :-( It's night-time in Germany but
    Dennis is aware of it and hopefully will have some time to work on in
    tomorrow.


    David

    --
    David A. Black
    David A. Black, Jun 3, 2004
    #3
  4. Hi --

    On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, daz wrote:

    >
    > Peña, Botp wrote:
    > > Hi ALL:
    > >
    > > Pls forgive me in advance.
    > >
    > > I posted a reply today but did not see it.
    > >
    > > I'll like to see if new post will get posted (diff reply).
    > >
    > > I'm on the mailing list.
    > >
    > > I just noticed this problem just today.
    > >
    > > kind regards -botp
    > >
    > >

    >
    > You're right,
    > www.ruby-talk.org/102230
    >
    > .... and not alone
    >
    >
    > Can anyone see this on their News reader?
    > I see it in ML mail only - No In-Reply-To: or References:, but valid mail.
    > www.ruby-talk.org/102074


    The remaining problem seems to be subject lines with "Re:" in them,
    when there are no In-Reply-To and References: headers. This
    apparently makes the NNTP server flag the message as a followup and
    then be unhappy because there's no reference.

    (See my subject-mangling of Botp's reply message, which resulted in
    the message reaching comp.lang.ruby.)

    Dennis has several messages from me, leading up to this conclusion,
    for when he gets up tomorrow :) So hopefully a fix will be
    forthcoming soon.


    David

    --
    David A. Black
    David A. Black, Jun 3, 2004
    #4
  5. il Thu, 3 Jun 2004 03:48:42 +0100, "daz" <> ha
    scritto::


    >You're right,
    >www.ruby-talk.org/102230
    >
    >... and not alone
    >
    >
    >Can anyone see this on their News reader?


    seing this and previous msg from Botp on my newsserver.

    But did not see the msg from Botp about String#% till dblack hacked
    it.
    gabriele renzi, Jun 3, 2004
    #5
  6. Hello David, ruby-talk, c.l.r.,

    David A. Black wrote:
    > The remaining problem seems to be subject lines with "Re:" in them,
    > when there are no In-Reply-To and References: headers. This
    > apparently makes the NNTP server flag the message as a followup and
    > then be unhappy because there's no reference.


    My further investigations proved that this is really the problem. The
    symptoms are the same as with the first problem (I get a 441 - "Followup
    without a reference" - when posting the mail to the newsgroup), but this
    time the solution is non-trivial. The first case ("In-Reply-To" flag in
    header but not "References" flag) was solved by adding the missing flag
    by duplicating the message-id of the "In-Reply-To" flag. In this case
    both flags are missing. The MUA which was used by Austin Ziegler adds
    "Thread-Topic" / "Thread-Index" flags to the header which are supposed
    to solve the threading, but this is not applicable to Usenet.

    This leads to the conclusion that we have three possible solutions:
    - Add an "In-Reply-To"/"References" flag to the header by using the
    message-id of THAT mail => the message would appear on c.l.r., but
    threading would be broken
    - drop the message on the floor at the gateway => ruby-talk / c.l.r.
    are inconsistent
    - my solution: as mua's are more or less allowed to do whatever they
    want my fear is that we get more and more of such borderline cases
    so the only solution is that we establish identical posting policies
    on both the mailing-list host and the gateway/nntp host we're posting
    too. (ML-Maintainers? Any Comments on this one?)

    Btw: I won't be able to re-feed the messages which were not posted to
    c.l.r. because my suspicion that they get rejected because of their age
    became true. Sorry for that, but DAB will probably put them on a http-
    accessible location.

    Kind regards,
    Dennis Oelkers
    --
    Dennis Oelkers | Webadministration | Zentraleinrichtung Rechenzentrum
    TU-Berlin | EN-Gebaeude, K042 | Telefon: 030-314-25029

    Key Fingerprint:
    A6 7A B6 90 09 56 E8 32 02 40 6B 27 80 17 00 89 61 E7 CA 6F
    Dennis Oelkers, Jun 3, 2004
    #6
  7. "Dennis Oelkers" <-Berlin.DE> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:c9nbnn$p3v$-Berlin.DE...
    > Hello David, ruby-talk, c.l.r.,
    >
    > David A. Black wrote:
    > > The remaining problem seems to be subject lines with "Re:" in them,
    > > when there are no In-Reply-To and References: headers. This
    > > apparently makes the NNTP server flag the message as a followup and
    > > then be unhappy because there's no reference.

    >
    > My further investigations proved that this is really the problem. The
    > symptoms are the same as with the first problem (I get a 441 - "Followup
    > without a reference" - when posting the mail to the newsgroup), but this
    > time the solution is non-trivial. The first case ("In-Reply-To" flag in
    > header but not "References" flag) was solved by adding the missing flag
    > by duplicating the message-id of the "In-Reply-To" flag. In this case
    > both flags are missing. The MUA which was used by Austin Ziegler adds
    > "Thread-Topic" / "Thread-Index" flags to the header which are supposed
    > to solve the threading, but this is not applicable to Usenet.


    This is bad news...

    > This leads to the conclusion that we have three possible solutions:
    > - Add an "In-Reply-To"/"References" flag to the header by using the
    > message-id of THAT mail => the message would appear on c.l.r., but
    > threading would be broken


    That's my favorite. It would be even better if the GW could figure the
    correct message id and insert that. But with these headers it seems quite
    impractical.

    > - drop the message on the floor at the gateway => ruby-talk / c.l.r.
    > are inconsistent


    Not really a solution, is it?

    > - my solution: as mua's are more or less allowed to do whatever they
    > want my fear is that we get more and more of such borderline cases
    > so the only solution is that we establish identical posting policies
    > on both the mailing-list host and the gateway/nntp host we're posting
    > too. (ML-Maintainers? Any Comments on this one?)


    I guess this is impractical since it sounds like this would rule out some
    mail clients. People will not be happy about that.

    > Btw: I won't be able to re-feed the messages which were not posted to
    > c.l.r. because my suspicion that they get rejected because of their age
    > became true. Sorry for that, but DAB will probably put them on a http-
    > accessible location.


    DAB as in http://www.dab.de/ :)))

    Regards

    robert
    Robert Klemme, Jun 3, 2004
    #7
  8. Hello Robert,

    Robert Klemme wrote:
    >>- Add an "In-Reply-To"/"References" flag to the header by using the
    >> message-id of THAT mail => the message would appear on c.l.r., but
    >> threading would be broken

    >
    >
    > That's my favorite. It would be even better if the GW could figure the
    > correct message id and insert that. But with these headers it seems quite
    > impractical.


    This is not possible because in cases like this there is no real clue to
    which thread/posting this is a reply to (without utilising human
    intelligence or complex algorithms of course).

    >>- my solution: as mua's are more or less allowed to do whatever they
    >> want my fear is that we get more and more of such borderline cases
    >> so the only solution is that we establish identical posting policies
    >> on both the mailing-list host and the gateway/nntp host we're posting
    >> too. (ML-Maintainers? Any Comments on this one?)

    >
    >
    > I guess this is impractical since it sounds like this would rule out some
    > mail clients. People will not be happy about that.


    The point is that the policy of ruby-talk is quite sleazy whilc
    they're very strict for Usenet postings. People can send almost any
    garbage to the mailing list if they're subscribed to it and allowed
    to post. In my opinion it is the right behaviour to drop any mail
    which is not well-formed as soon as possible.

    This leads to the conclusion that we'll either have some sort of
    inconsistency between those two medias, or we would have to synchronize
    the policies up to a certain point where those inconsistencies converge
    against 0.

    Kind regards,
    Dennis Oelkers
    --
    Dennis Oelkers | Webadministration | Zentraleinrichtung Rechenzentrum
    TU-Berlin | EN-Gebaeude, K042 | Telefon: 030-314-25029

    Key Fingerprint:
    A6 7A B6 90 09 56 E8 32 02 40 6B 27 80 17 00 89 61 E7 CA 6F
    Dennis Oelkers, Jun 3, 2004
    #8
  9. "Dennis Oelkers" <-Berlin.DE> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:c9ndoc$qa5$-Berlin.DE...
    > Hello Robert,
    >
    > Robert Klemme wrote:
    > >>- Add an "In-Reply-To"/"References" flag to the header by using the
    > >> message-id of THAT mail => the message would appear on c.l.r., but
    > >> threading would be broken

    > >
    > >
    > > That's my favorite. It would be even better if the GW could figure

    the
    > > correct message id and insert that. But with these headers it seems

    quite
    > > impractical.

    >
    > This is not possible because in cases like this there is no real clue to
    > which thread/posting this is a reply to (without utilising human
    > intelligence or complex algorithms of course).


    That's what I figured.

    > >>- my solution: as mua's are more or less allowed to do whatever they
    > >> want my fear is that we get more and more of such borderline cases
    > >> so the only solution is that we establish identical posting

    policies
    > >> on both the mailing-list host and the gateway/nntp host we're

    posting
    > >> too. (ML-Maintainers? Any Comments on this one?)

    > >
    > >
    > > I guess this is impractical since it sounds like this would rule out

    some
    > > mail clients. People will not be happy about that.

    >
    > The point is that the policy of ruby-talk is quite sleazy whilc
    > they're very strict for Usenet postings. People can send almost any
    > garbage to the mailing list if they're subscribed to it and allowed
    > to post. In my opinion it is the right behaviour to drop any mail
    > which is not well-formed as soon as possible.


    Well, but look at it from a user's perspective who is ignorant of the news
    group: he has a mail client and obviously that mail client sends valid
    mails (otherwise a whole lot other instances will reject his email). So
    he's likely reluctant to change his MUA just because of ruby-talk. I know
    people are peculiar when it comes to their favourite mail reader, news
    reader, editor or whatever. Just look at the tons of
    my-operating-system-is-better-than-yours flame wars...

    > This leads to the conclusion that we'll either have some sort of
    > inconsistency between those two medias, or we would have to synchronize
    > the policies up to a certain point where those inconsistencies converge
    > against 0.


    I could live with thread inconsistencies. At least we have all messages
    of a thread available - even if not properly sorted. As said, that's my
    favorite solution.

    Kind regards

    robert
    Robert Klemme, Jun 3, 2004
    #9
  10. Peña, Botp

    Carlos Guest

    [Dennis Oelkers <-Berlin.DE>, 2004-06-03 16.18 CEST]
    > Hello David, ruby-talk, c.l.r.,
    >
    > David A. Black wrote:
    > >The remaining problem seems to be subject lines with "Re:" in them,
    > >when there are no In-Reply-To and References: headers. This
    > >apparently makes the NNTP server flag the message as a followup and
    > >then be unhappy because there's no reference.

    >
    > My further investigations proved that this is really the problem. The
    > symptoms are the same as with the first problem (I get a 441 - "Followup
    > without a reference" - when posting the mail to the newsgroup), but this
    > time the solution is non-trivial. The first case ("In-Reply-To" flag in
    > header but not "References" flag) was solved by adding the missing flag
    > by duplicating the message-id of the "In-Reply-To" flag. In this case
    > both flags are missing. The MUA which was used by Austin Ziegler adds
    > "Thread-Topic" / "Thread-Index" flags to the header which are supposed
    > to solve the threading, but this is not applicable to Usenet.
    >
    > This leads to the conclusion that we have three possible solutions:


    I suggest another: if the message subject begins with "Re: " or "re: ", but
    doesn't have a "References: " header, change the "Re: " to "RE: ".

    If it has a "References: " header, but the subject doesn't begin with "Re: "
    or "re: ", add "Re: " at the beginning.

    I think that should satisfy RFC 850.
    Carlos, Jun 3, 2004
    #10
  11. il Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:14:30 +0200, "Robert Klemme" <>
    ha scritto::

    >
    >
    >I could live with thread inconsistencies. At least we have all messages
    >of a thread available - even if not properly sorted. As said, that's my
    >favorite solution.
    >


    fwiw: +1
    gabriele renzi, Jun 3, 2004
    #11
  12. Hi --

    On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Dennis Oelkers wrote:

    > Hello David, ruby-talk, c.l.r.,
    >
    > David A. Black wrote:
    > > The remaining problem seems to be subject lines with "Re:" in them,
    > > when there are no In-Reply-To and References: headers. This
    > > apparently makes the NNTP server flag the message as a followup and
    > > then be unhappy because there's no reference.

    >
    > My further investigations proved that this is really the problem. The
    > symptoms are the same as with the first problem (I get a 441 - "Followup
    > without a reference" - when posting the mail to the newsgroup), but this
    > time the solution is non-trivial. The first case ("In-Reply-To" flag in
    > header but not "References" flag) was solved by adding the missing flag
    > by duplicating the message-id of the "In-Reply-To" flag. In this case
    > both flags are missing. The MUA which was used by Austin Ziegler adds
    > "Thread-Topic" / "Thread-Index" flags to the header which are supposed
    > to solve the threading, but this is not applicable to Usenet.
    >
    > This leads to the conclusion that we have three possible solutions:
    > - Add an "In-Reply-To"/"References" flag to the header by using the
    > message-id of THAT mail => the message would appear on c.l.r., but
    > threading would be broken
    > - drop the message on the floor at the gateway => ruby-talk / c.l.r.
    > are inconsistent
    > - my solution: as mua's are more or less allowed to do whatever they
    > want my fear is that we get more and more of such borderline cases
    > so the only solution is that we establish identical posting policies
    > on both the mailing-list host and the gateway/nntp host we're posting
    > too. (ML-Maintainers? Any Comments on this one?)


    I (reluctantly) would opt for the first one, if it's the likeliest way
    to get all messages through. Maybe for messages with "Re:" but no
    References: you could add X-Missing-Reference header or
    something... so that some day if someone figures out a way to fix it
    we can easily find them :)


    David

    --
    David A. Black
    David A. Black, Jun 3, 2004
    #12
  13. On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 11:18:38PM +0900, Dennis Oelkers wrote:
    > Hello David, ruby-talk, c.l.r.,
    >
    > David A. Black wrote:
    > >The remaining problem seems to be subject lines with "Re:" in them,
    > >when there are no In-Reply-To and References: headers. This
    > >apparently makes the NNTP server flag the message as a followup and
    > >then be unhappy because there's no reference.

    >
    > My further investigations proved that this is really the problem. The
    > symptoms are the same as with the first problem (I get a 441 - "Followup
    > without a reference" - when posting the mail to the newsgroup), but this
    > time the solution is non-trivial. The first case ("In-Reply-To" flag in
    > header but not "References" flag) was solved by adding the missing flag
    > by duplicating the message-id of the "In-Reply-To" flag. In this case
    > both flags are missing. The MUA which was used by Austin Ziegler adds
    > "Thread-Topic" / "Thread-Index" flags to the header which are supposed
    > to solve the threading, but this is not applicable to Usenet.


    Arg, *bleeping* Microsoft *bleeping* us all again, by ignoring an
    established standard, and instead inventing their own...

    If they at least had the courtesy to add in the normal headers too,
    it's not like it's rocket science, but no..

    If someone could figure out what the *bleep* Thread-Index is, it might
    be possible, with a lot of state on the gateway, to make an educated
    guess at where it was supposed to be in the thread and fake the
    appropiate headers.

    An alternative would be storing the last message-id for each 'topic',
    and just pretend that the MS mails was replies to that. It's cheaper
    and and should usually gets the message in the right region.

    I'm afraid that the suggestion to remove the 'Re' might actually screw
    the only defence we have against the problem, subject matching. I
    don't know about other MUAs, but Mutt tries to put the messages
    somewhere 'right' in the threads, by using subject matching and
    ordering by date. I donno if the munging might pose problematic
    there.

    > This leads to the conclusion that we have three possible solutions:
    > - Add an "In-Reply-To"/"References" flag to the header by using the
    > message-id of THAT mail => the message would appear on c.l.r., but
    > threading would be broken


    I'm not sure how mutt would react to this. Or any other using the same
    technique (I believe there is other clients doing the same thing).

    > - drop the message on the floor at the gateway => ruby-talk / c.l.r.
    > are inconsistent


    Not an option, I'd say.

    > - my solution: as mua's are more or less allowed to do whatever they
    > want my fear is that we get more and more of such borderline cases
    > so the only solution is that we establish identical posting policies
    > on both the mailing-list host and the gateway/nntp host we're posting
    > too. (ML-Maintainers? Any Comments on this one?)


    Oh, a world without Outlook.. As much as I'd love to see that, it's
    not an option either. Unless someone could come up with a gateway that
    fixes posts from Outlook. Secondly, there's webmails out there that
    has similar problems.

    --
    Thomas
    Thomas Fini Hansen, Jun 3, 2004
    #13
  14. Peña, Botp

    Sean O'Dell Guest

    On Thursday 03 June 2004 07:18, Dennis Oelkers wrote:
    > David A. Black wrote:
    > > The remaining problem seems to be subject lines with "Re:" in them,
    > > when there are no In-Reply-To and References: headers. This
    > > apparently makes the NNTP server flag the message as a followup and
    > > then be unhappy because there's no reference.


    Is it possible to mirror the References header item as another header item,
    and when References is missing and there is a "Re:" in the subject,
    re-construct it from the other header item? It could be Outlook is
    deliberately stripping off References and In-Reply-To, but won't strip off
    another custom header, such as "X-Gateway-References".

    Sean O'Dell
    Sean O'Dell, Jun 3, 2004
    #14
  15. Peña, Botp

    daz Guest

    From: "David A. Black" <>
    >
    > On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Dennis Oelkers wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > My further investigations proved that this is really the problem. The
    > > symptoms are the same as with the first problem (I get a 441 - "Followup
    > > without a reference" - when posting the mail to the newsgroup), but this
    > > time the solution is non-trivial. The first case ("In-Reply-To" flag in
    > > header but not "References" flag) was solved by adding the missing flag
    > > by duplicating the message-id of the "In-Reply-To" flag. In this case
    > > both flags are missing. The MUA which was used by Austin Ziegler adds
    > > "Thread-Topic" / "Thread-Index" flags to the header which are supposed
    > > to solve the threading, but this is not applicable to Usenet.
    > >
    > > This leads to the conclusion that we have three possible solutions:
    > > - Add an "In-Reply-To"/"References" flag to the header by using the
    > > message-id of THAT mail => the message would appear on c.l.r., but
    > > threading would be broken
    > > - drop the message on the floor at the gateway => ruby-talk / c.l.r.
    > > are inconsistent
    > > - my solution: as mua's are more or less allowed to do whatever they
    > > want my fear is that we get more and more of such borderline cases
    > > so the only solution is that we establish identical posting policies
    > > on both the mailing-list host and the gateway/nntp host we're posting
    > > too. (ML-Maintainers? Any Comments on this one?)

    >
    > I (reluctantly) would opt for the first one, if it's the likeliest way
    > to get all messages through. Maybe for messages with "Re:" but no
    > References: you could add X-Missing-Reference header or
    > something... so that some day if someone figures out a way to fix it
    > we can easily find them :)
    >


    Couldn't it be solved simply by changing params.rb ...

    module Params

    # name of the news server
    NEWS_SERVER = "news.zrz.tu-berlin.de"

    # [...]

    end

    ... such that it refers to a Usenet server rather than an NNTP host
    which links with a Usenet news server ?

    Can Dennis plug straight into the German Research Network (DFN.DE)
    or is that what's imposing the rigid restrictions ?

    I'm repeating, but if mirroring works for me through my news service
    and not for him then all of these different header permutations are
    permissible within Usenet.

    I notice that DFN runs a service http://news.individual.net/server.html
    which necessarily has safeguards. I was going to see if it was
    possible for me to mirror through them but rule one states that the
    Sender cannot be anyone except the user. Fair enough.


    daz
    daz, Jun 3, 2004
    #15
  16. On Fri, Jun 04, 2004 at 05:01:37AM +0900, Sean O'Dell wrote:
    > On Thursday 03 June 2004 07:18, Dennis Oelkers wrote:
    > > David A. Black wrote:
    > > > The remaining problem seems to be subject lines with "Re:" in them,
    > > > when there are no In-Reply-To and References: headers. This
    > > > apparently makes the NNTP server flag the message as a followup and
    > > > then be unhappy because there's no reference.

    >
    > Is it possible to mirror the References header item as another header item,
    > and when References is missing and there is a "Re:" in the subject,
    > re-construct it from the other header item? It could be Outlook is
    > deliberately stripping off References and In-Reply-To, but won't strip off
    > another custom header, such as "X-Gateway-References".


    When a MUA is replying, it doesn't take the original mail and strip
    out stuff, it constructs a new mail.

    It is possible to use unique sender addresses from the mailing list,
    and then use a DB to look up what message a mail was reply to, and add
    the right headers, but it's rather a lot of work for one bad MUA.

    *thinks a bit*

    Actually, a general solution might prove popular, it's not like
    ruby-talk is the only place that has the thread fallout problem.

    As a side note, and I'm baseing this on a very small sample, I think
    Thunderbird drops the In-Reply-To and References headers if you delete
    all quoted material. My theory is that it does that to combat the
    people-that-just-replies-to-an-old-thread-to-start-a-new-one-problem,
    which is just about as irritating.

    I haven't confirmed this though, so if anyone has more data...

    --
    Thomas
    Thomas Fini Hansen, Jun 3, 2004
    #16
  17. Peña, Botp

    daz Guest

    I wrote:
    >
    > NEWS_SERVER = "news.zrz.tu-berlin.de"
    >
    > .. such that it refers to a Usenet server rather than an NNTP host
    > which links with a Usenet news server ?
    >


    Yuurk, that's technical BS !!

    What I mean is: is there access to any alternative host which
    isn't as restrictive as (closer to Usenet than) the one in use ?

    I'm wondering now what the "industry standard" software is
    for news hosting and/or whether each service has OEM versions.
    At the same time, I haven't the slightest interest :-?


    daz
    daz, Jun 4, 2004
    #17
  18. Peña, Botp

    Guest

    Hi,

    At Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:18:38 +0900,
    Dennis Oelkers wrote in [ruby-talk:102281]:
    > This leads to the conclusion that we have three possible solutions:
    > - Add an "In-Reply-To"/"References" flag to the header by using the
    > message-id of THAT mail => the message would appear on c.l.r., but
    > threading would be broken
    > - drop the message on the floor at the gateway => ruby-talk / c.l.r.
    > are inconsistent
    > - my solution: as mua's are more or less allowed to do whatever they
    > want my fear is that we get more and more of such borderline cases
    > so the only solution is that we establish identical posting policies
    > on both the mailing-list host and the gateway/nntp host we're posting
    > too. (ML-Maintainers? Any Comments on this one?)


    Though I'm not a ML maintainer, one possible solution is:

    (1) revive subject tag (e.g. [ruby-talk:102281]).

    (2) add following hook (originally posted in [ruby-list:27934])
    to fml to construct Refereces: from the subject if necessary.

    $HEADER_ADD_HOOK = q{
    if (!$Envelope{'in-reply-to:'} && !$Envelope{'references:'} &&
    $Envelope{'subject:'} =~ /^re:\s*\[ruby-\w+:(d+)\]/i) {
    if (open(REF, "$DIR/$1")) {
    my $mid, $ref, $inref;
    while (<REF>) {
    if (/^message-id:\s*(.+)$/i) {
    $mid = $1;
    } elsif (/^references:\s*(.+)$/i) {
    $ref = $1;
    $inref = 1;
    next;
    } elsif ($inref && /^\s/) {
    $ref .= $_;
    next;
    } elsif (/^$/) {
    last;
    }
    $inref = 0;
    }
    close(REF);
    if ($mid) {
    ($ref = "References: $ref $mid") =~ s/\s+/ /g;
    $body .= "In-Reply-To: $mid\n$ref\n";
    }
    }
    }
    };

    --
    Nobu Nakada
    , Jun 4, 2004
    #18
  19. On Fri, Jun 04, 2004 at 10:58:57AM +0900, wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > At Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:18:38 +0900,
    > Dennis Oelkers wrote in [ruby-talk:102281]:
    > > This leads to the conclusion that we have three possible solutions:
    > > - Add an "In-Reply-To"/"References" flag to the header by using the
    > > message-id of THAT mail => the message would appear on c.l.r., but
    > > threading would be broken
    > > - drop the message on the floor at the gateway => ruby-talk / c.l.r.
    > > are inconsistent
    > > - my solution: as mua's are more or less allowed to do whatever they
    > > want my fear is that we get more and more of such borderline cases
    > > so the only solution is that we establish identical posting policies
    > > on both the mailing-list host and the gateway/nntp host we're posting
    > > too. (ML-Maintainers? Any Comments on this one?)

    >
    > Though I'm not a ML maintainer, one possible solution is:
    >
    > (1) revive subject tag (e.g. [ruby-talk:102281]).
    >
    > (2) add following hook (originally posted in [ruby-list:27934])
    > to fml to construct Refereces: from the subject if necessary.


    [snip perl]

    Brilliant. Have the mailing list fix the messages. As far as I can
    see, that should fix the problem, without bad sideeffects..

    Now, you wouldn't happen to have a similar patch to Mailman. I could
    use that. ;)

    --
    Thomas
    Thomas Fini Hansen, Jun 4, 2004
    #19
  20. "Thomas Fini Hansen" <> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:...

    > Arg, *bleeping* Microsoft *bleeping* us all again, by ignoring an
    > established standard, and instead inventing their own...
    >
    > If they at least had the courtesy to add in the normal headers too,
    > it's not like it's rocket science, but no..
    >
    > If someone could figure out what the *bleep* Thread-Index is, it might
    > be possible, with a lot of state on the gateway, to make an educated
    > guess at where it was supposed to be in the thread and fake the
    > appropiate headers.
    >
    > An alternative would be storing the last message-id for each 'topic',
    > and just pretend that the MS mails was replies to that. It's cheaper
    > and and should usually gets the message in the right region.


    > > - my solution: as mua's are more or less allowed to do whatever they
    > > want my fear is that we get more and more of such borderline cases
    > > so the only solution is that we establish identical posting policies
    > > on both the mailing-list host and the gateway/nntp host we're

    posting
    > > too. (ML-Maintainers? Any Comments on this one?)

    >
    > Oh, a world without Outlook.. As much as I'd love to see that, it's
    > not an option either. Unless someone could come up with a gateway that
    > fixes posts from Outlook. Secondly, there's webmails out there that
    > has similar problems.


    You're bashing the wrong pig here. "Outlook" itself does no news (at
    least older versions, I'm not fully up to date). Instead it delegated
    news handling to "Outlook Express" - a whole differnt piece of software
    (which I am using btw). "Outlook Express" does a nice job inserting
    "References" headers, which you can verify with this posting.

    MS does a lot of evil, but they are not always the ones to blame.

    Kind regards

    robert
    Robert Klemme, Jun 4, 2004
    #20
    1. Advertising

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