retooling and mental housecleaning

Discussion in 'HTML' started by William Gill, Oct 21, 2007.

  1. William Gill

    William Gill Guest

    In yet another effort to update my practices, and clean out some mental
    artifacts, and other residue (much dating back to the early 90's) I need
    to reassess my html semantics. I find lots of articles on the subject.
    The problem, as with almost anything I search, I am having a tough
    time sifting through to determine what is current, and more importantly
    what is actually good advice.

    Any suggestions on a good starting point?
     
    William Gill, Oct 21, 2007
    #1
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  2. William Gill

    Neredbojias Guest

    Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Sun, 21 Oct 2007 13:56:01 GMT
    William Gill scribed:

    > In yet another effort to update my practices, and clean out some mental
    > artifacts, and other residue (much dating back to the early 90's) I need
    > to reassess my html semantics. I find lots of articles on the subject.
    > The problem, as with almost anything I search, I am having a tough
    > time sifting through to determine what is current, and more importantly
    > what is actually good advice.
    >
    > Any suggestions on a good starting point?


    I'm not that up on those, myself, but I'd suggest checking out Jukka
    Korpela's site as, from reading various newsgroup posts, I think he has a
    pretty good handle on it. Sorry I don't have the link (-housecleaning my
    box and own site), but someone's sure to post it.

    --
    Neredbojias

    The 16th century French satirical writer Fran├žois Rabelais in his series of
    novels Gargantua and Pantagruel, discussing the various ways of cleansing
    oneself at the toilet, wrote that: "He who uses paper on his filthy bum,
    will always find his ballocks lined with scum"
     
    Neredbojias, Oct 21, 2007
    #2
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  3. William Gill

    dorayme Guest

    In article <rUISi.4029$>,
    William Gill <> wrote:

    > In yet another effort to update my practices, and clean out some mental
    > artifacts, and other residue (much dating back to the early 90's) I need
    > to reassess my html semantics.


    > Any suggestions on a good starting point?


    http://www.htmldog.com/

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Oct 21, 2007
    #3
  4. William Gill

    William Gill Guest

    Neredbojias wrote:

    > I'm not that up on those, myself, but I'd suggest checking out Jukka
    > Korpela's site as, from reading various newsgroup posts, I think he has a
    > pretty good handle on it. Sorry I don't have the link (-housecleaning my
    > box and own site), but someone's sure to post it.
    >


    Thanks, I've got it. His intro covers things like using H# tags for
    headers, etc. Was getting the impression I needed a more in depth on
    html semantics, but maybe not.
     
    William Gill, Oct 22, 2007
    #4
  5. William Gill

    William Gill Guest

    dorayme wrote:

    >
    > http://www.htmldog.com/
    >


    Thanks, I had already checked them out, but didn't see anything in depth
    about semantics. I'm beginning to get the idea I just need to reread
    the beginner's stuff, and take notes on where I may be off the mark. I
    may not be as bad off I as I thought, but sense a real disdain here for
    div and span abuse, and thought I'd better brush up. I guess back to
    basics is back to basics.
     
    William Gill, Oct 22, 2007
    #5
  6. William Gill

    dorayme Guest

    In article <nv1Ti.36337$>,
    William Gill <> wrote:

    > dorayme wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > http://www.htmldog.com/
    > >

    >
    > Thanks, I had already checked them out, but didn't see anything in depth
    > about semantics. I'm beginning to get the idea I just need to reread
    > the beginner's stuff, and take notes on where I may be off the mark. I
    > may not be as bad off I as I thought, but sense a real disdain here for
    > div and span abuse, and thought I'd better brush up. I guess back to
    > basics is back to basics.


    OK. What are some of the main things puzzling you? The meaning of
    individual elements? How the meaning of some elements are more
    specific than others? Which elements have some significant
    meaning and which do not? How much effort to put into avoiding
    basically meaningless containers like divs?

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Oct 22, 2007
    #6
  7. William Gill

    William Gill Guest

    dorayme wrote:

    > OK. What are some of the main things puzzling you? The meaning of
    > individual elements? How the meaning of some elements are more
    > specific than others? Which elements have some significant
    > meaning and which do not?


    Bearing in mind I am trying to break bad habits as well as form new
    ones, yes. For instance, 15 years ago I never considered my navigation
    links as an unordered list, and it probably wasn't important since
    several structural approaches rendered the same effect. Now with the
    various non-visual UA's it impacts how a page is "rendered." So it is
    important enough for me to readdress my navigation bars. On the other
    hand, appropriate use of H# elements has never been an issue.

    > How much effort to put into avoiding
    > basically meaningless containers like divs?
    >


    I don't want to be a zealot about it, I think I can decide when a div, a
    table, or even a span is OK, but I do think a more semantic approach in
    general will prevent unnecessary div propagation.

    I need to do a comprehensive analysis, but my problem is that when I
    review new material for beginners, I have a tendency to read what is
    already in my mind, and not what is being expressed. I'm sure we all do
    that to some extent, but my particular disability exacerbates the
    problem. I certainly don't want to get into any black and white holy
    war that says things like "Though shalt not use tables (or divs, or
    spans, etc)", on the other hand I don't want to use them to compensate
    for poor markup. I use dl frequently for things that aren't strictly
    definition lists, but I'm not sure I understand all of the ramifications.

    I respect the opinions of the people like you in this forum. Even when
    I disagree, I can usually improve my perspective. I have a feel for the
    mindset of some of the people here, and as a result can temper my own
    opinions. When I search for semantic html, I get lots of results, but
    have no way of evaluating their relevance, accuracy, or anything else.
    I'm even beginning to wonder if I'm sending myself on a snipe hunt.
     
    William Gill, Oct 23, 2007
    #7
  8. William Gill

    dorayme Guest

    In article <qLnTi.47511$>,
    William Gill <> wrote:

    > dorayme wrote:
    >
    > > OK. What are some of the main things puzzling you? The meaning of
    > > individual elements? How the meaning of some elements are more
    > > specific than others? Which elements have some significant
    > > meaning and which do not?

    >
    > Bearing in mind I am trying to break bad habits as well as form new
    > ones, yes. For instance, 15 years ago I never considered my navigation
    > links as an unordered list, and it probably wasn't important since
    > several structural approaches rendered the same effect. Now with the
    > various non-visual UA's it impacts how a page is "rendered." So it is
    > important enough for me to readdress my navigation bars. On the other
    > hand, appropriate use of H# elements has never been an issue.
    >
    > > How much effort to put into avoiding
    > > basically meaningless containers like divs?
    > >

    >
    > I don't want to be a zealot about it, I think I can decide when a div, a
    > table, or even a span is OK, but I do think a more semantic approach in
    > general will prevent unnecessary div propagation.


    I was trying to pin you down to some concrete problems you may be
    having so that a discussion of them might be productive for you
    and me and all. But I can see you are not in a mood to be
    specific. You have *no* problem now with unordered lists. Fine!
    <g>

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Oct 23, 2007
    #8
  9. William Gill

    William Gill Guest

    dorayme wrote:
    > I was trying to pin you down to some concrete problems you may be
    > having so that a discussion of them might be productive for you
    > and me and all. But I can see you are not in a mood to be
    > specific. You have *no* problem now with unordered lists. Fine!
    > <g>
    >


    Sorry, I was looking for a reliable starting point to review my
    practices. It's something I have always done, review, reevaluate,
    adjust. In past lives I had to make decisions that impacted many
    people. I could make those decisions, knowing they were the "best"
    decision based on the information available at the time. Einstein's
    fourth dimension, time. The decisions I make today, don't make
    yesterday's decisions wrong, just outdated. Obviously my web design
    isn't so critical, but old habits are hard to break. Besides, I really
    hate being wrong. <g>

    I have seen a lot of discussion on html semantics, and though the
    semantics of a page advertising an event, are different than those of a
    curriculum vitae, I thought I should investigate a more semantic
    approach in general. Unfortunately it seems that like so many things,
    anyone who can spell HTML, and has an opinion, has published it
    (actually blogs even remove the HTML requirement). HTML semantics are
    either the future of the web (of course that's what they said about
    xhtml a few years back), or another fad.

    Thanks for your time. Trust that if and when I uncover any "concrete
    problems", that (hopefully) haven't been addressed here dozens of times,
    I will ask more specific questions. As I said, I do already pick up new
    ways of looking at things here.

    You know, when I first started, I didn't find this forum very useful.
    It seemed to be a predecessor to today's blogs, a good place to publish
    opinions, but opinions are like a certain body part, everyone has one.
    Now I find it invaluable. Do you think it's because the forum is that
    much better, I am that much smarter, or a combination of both?
     
    William Gill, Oct 24, 2007
    #9
  10. William Gill

    dorayme Guest

    In article <iCITi.62514$>,
    William Gill <> wrote:

    > You know, when I first started, I didn't find this forum very useful.
    > It seemed to be a predecessor to today's blogs, a good place to publish
    > opinions, but opinions are like a certain body part, everyone has one.
    > Now I find it invaluable. Do you think it's because the forum is that
    > much better, I am that much smarter, or a combination of both?


    Because you are wise and mature and good.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, Oct 24, 2007
    #10
  11. William Gill

    Steve Pugh Guest

    On Oct 24, 3:26 pm, William Gill <> wrote:

    > I have seen a lot of discussion on html semantics, and though the
    > semantics of a page advertising an event, are different than those of a
    > curriculum vitae, I thought I should investigate a more semantic
    > approach in general. Unfortunately it seems that like so many things,
    > anyone who can spell HTML, and has an opinion, has published it
    > (actually blogs even remove the HTML requirement). HTML semantics are
    > either the future of the web (of course that's what they said about
    > xhtml a few years back), or another fad.


    Have a look at pages discussing POSH (Plain Old Semantic HTML)
    starting with http://microformats.org/wiki/posh

    Steve
     
    Steve Pugh, Oct 24, 2007
    #11
  12. William Gill

    William Gill Guest

    dorayme wrote:

    > Because you are wise and mature and good.
    >


    2 out of 3 ain't bad! (Please don't ask) <g>
     
    William Gill, Oct 24, 2007
    #12
  13. William Gill

    William Gill Guest

    Steve Pugh wrote:

    > Have a look at pages discussing POSH (Plain Old Semantic HTML)
    > starting with http://microformats.org/wiki/posh


    Looks like a very good starting point. Thanks.
     
    William Gill, Oct 24, 2007
    #13
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