Richard heathfields C programming article

Discussion in 'C Programming' started by sophia.agnes@gmail.com, Nov 8, 2007.

  1. Guest

    Hi,

    I was going through Mr "Richard heathfields" site , it is written as
    follows:-

    Some people think C has no role to play in the modern programming
    world. I would consider this opinion to have rather more validity if
    it weren't for the fact that even those who express it use C code on a
    daily basis (whether they realise it or not). C programs and libraries
    are woven into the very fabric of the modern programming world, and
    only a fool thinks otherwise.

    Well Mr heathfield can you explain your statement in a clear & brief
    manner, even my peers ask this question most of the time, so that i
    can give them some good answers.

    my colleagues always advice me on the following lines:-

    1)C why learn it, it is of no use for ordinary programmers like us,it
    is a language for nerds.

    2) it has no role of C language in a windows development
    environment...???(they say c is purely for *nix environment)

    3) for ordinary programmers just knowledge of database design
    concepts, SQL,SDLC, then a language like java or C# will earn the
    bread and butter...???

    now i have got my own questions

    1) can any one point out good enough tutorials showing how to make gui
    app in C(with the help of graphical libraries) just as we do in
    java...???(no curses please, i don't like it)

    2) I have heard that the java compiler javac is purely written in C
    how true is this statement...???
    , Nov 8, 2007
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Guest

    In article <>,
    <> wrote:
    >Hi,
    >
    >I was going through Mr "Richard heathfields" site , it is written as
    >follows:-
    >
    >Some people think C has no role to play in the modern programming
    >world. I would consider this opinion to have rather more validity if
    >it weren't for the fact that even those who express it use C code on a
    >daily basis (whether they realise it or not). C programs and libraries
    >are woven into the very fabric of the modern programming world, and
    >only a fool thinks otherwise.
    >
    >Well Mr heathfield can you explain your statement in a clear & brief
    >manner, even my peers ask this question most of the time, so that i
    >can give them some good answers.
    >
    >my colleagues always advice me on the following lines:-
    >
    >1)C why learn it, it is of no use for ordinary programmers like us,it
    >is a language for nerds.


    There are a lot of good reasons, but one of them is that it forces you
    to learn to think about programming in a way that will be useful with
    any other language you use as well.

    Two major ways that it does this are:
    (a) It forces you to understand what you're doing at a fundamental
    level; C doesn't have any built-in high-level abstractions, so if
    you want them you have to build your own. Having done this a few
    times will make it a lot easier to understand what's going on
    underneath when you're using a language that has them pre-built for
    you.
    (b) It forces you to learn to get your programs right, by not
    protecting you from your errors. If you get things wrong, the
    program will break in subtle and unsubtle ways, and you will often
    need to understand how your program works, even in parts that
    aren't directly related to where the bug is showing up (which you
    already should by the time you run into runtime problems!), to find
    out what really went wrong.


    >2) it has no role of C language in a windows development
    >environment...???(they say c is purely for *nix environment)


    My day job involves writing code that gets deployed on Windows, and a
    lot of that is done in C. In fact, most of the bits of the code that
    everybody hates to have to poke at are written in languages other than
    C, so my experience would indicate that C is one of the *better*
    languages for developing under Windows (though I'm not going to claim
    that that's representative).


    >3) for ordinary programmers just knowledge of database design
    >concepts, SQL,SDLC, then a language like java or C# will earn the
    >bread and butter...???


    That depends what kind of job you want to get. It's probably unwise to
    restrict the tools you learn to use to only those that are currently
    useful for getting a job for "ordinary programmers", though, since
    those tools tend to change over time and having a broader knowledge
    base both makes you more likely to know *something* that's useful at
    any given time and makes it easier to pick up new tools as they come
    along.


    >now i have got my own questions
    >
    >1) can any one point out good enough tutorials showing how to make gui
    >app in C(with the help of graphical libraries) just as we do in
    >java...???(no curses please, i don't like it)


    1-57231-995-X


    >2) I have heard that the java compiler javac is purely written in C
    > how true is this statement...???


    I would be unsurprised to find that javac is implemented (at least
    partly) in Java, but the JVM that it would run on in that case is
    almost definitely written in C.


    dave
    , Nov 8, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. wrote:
    > 1)C why learn it, it is of no use for ordinary programmers like us,it
    > is a language for nerds.

    not true
    see wide usage in industry
    (well probably it's not used much for gui or highlevel web application
    development, but saying it is for nerds only is definitely not true)

    > 2) it has no role of C language in a windows development
    > environment...???(they say c is purely for *nix environment)

    c standard tries to be as platform independent as possible for a
    lowlevel language (c has compilers for microcontrollers as well as
    supercumputers)

    > 3) for ordinary programmers just knowledge of database design
    > concepts, SQL,SDLC, then a language like java or C# will earn the
    > bread and butter...???

    sure if your job is to manipulate databases from c# or java then it's
    ok

    when you have to roll your own fileformat/data structures/etc then
    you'll have hard time with those languages (most dbms systems,
    webservers, compilers etc are written in c)

    also when you need fast data processing those languages can fail
    (memory management issues, speed, ..)

    > 1) can any one point out good enough tutorials showing how to make gui
    > app in C(with the help of graphical libraries) just as we do in
    > java...???(no curses please, i don't like it)

    i don't know, but i guess every c gui toolkit has it's own tutorials/
    documentation (gtk comes to mind, though most toolkits are written in c
    ++ nowdays)

    > 2) I have heard that the java compiler javac is purely written in C
    > how true is this statement...???

    sure, check out the src code which is available: http://download.java.net/jdk6/6u5/archive/

    also python, perl, ruby, ghc haskell,.. compilers are written mostly
    in c
    Szabolcs Nagy, Nov 8, 2007
    #3
  4. said:

    > Hi,
    >
    > I was going through Mr "Richard heathfields" site , it is written as
    > follows:-
    >
    > Some people think C has no role to play in the modern programming
    > world. I would consider this opinion to have rather more validity if
    > it weren't for the fact that even those who express it use C code on a
    > daily basis (whether they realise it or not). C programs and libraries
    > are woven into the very fabric of the modern programming world, and
    > only a fool thinks otherwise.
    >
    > Well Mr heathfield can you explain your statement in a clear & brief
    > manner,


    If the above is not clear enough and brief enough for you, I'm afraid I
    can't oblige.

    > even my peers ask this question most of the time, so that i
    > can give them some good answers.
    >
    > my colleagues always advice me on the following lines:-
    >
    > 1)C why learn it, it is of no use for ordinary programmers like us,it
    > is a language for nerds.


    Find out what they mean by "nerds". I'm just an ordinary programmer like
    you, and I find that C is of a great deal of use to me.

    > 2) it has no role of C language in a windows development
    > environment...???(they say c is purely for *nix environment)


    I write far more C for Windows than I do for Linux. Most of the time I
    don't care which OS my code runs on, but when I *do* care, the reason
    tends to be that I am accessing the Win32 API. So, for me, C has a very
    important role in Windows development.

    >
    > 3) for ordinary programmers just knowledge of database design
    > concepts, SQL,SDLC, then a language like java or C# will earn the
    > bread and butter...???


    If all you want to do is earn bread and butter, go get a job as a baker or
    a dairymaid.

    > now i have got my own questions
    >
    > 1) can any one point out good enough tutorials showing how to make gui
    > app in C(with the help of graphical libraries) just as we do in
    > java...???(no curses please, i don't like it)


    I wasn't /going/ to curse.

    "Programming Windows", 5th edition, by Charles Petzold, is an excellent
    tutorial in Windows programming (although, alas, the C itself is a bit
    dire). This work might reasonably be regarded as canonical. I don't know
    what the canonical Linux equivalent is, but several decent books on GTK
    exist. (And GTK has been ported to Windows, so you can kill two birds with
    one stone if you like.)

    > 2) I have heard that the java compiler javac is purely written in C
    > how true is this statement...???


    I don't know, but I would not be surprised if it were true. Many compilers
    are partly "written" using tools that generate lexing and parsing code,
    and this code is typically generated in C, so a typical modern compiler is
    likely to be at least partly written in C.

    --
    Richard Heathfield <http://www.cpax.org.uk>
    Email: -http://www. +rjh@
    Google users: <http://www.cpax.org.uk/prg/writings/googly.php>
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Richard Heathfield, Nov 8, 2007
    #4
  5. Mark Bluemel Guest

    wrote:

    > 2) I have heard that the java compiler javac is purely written in C
    > how true is this statement...???


    There are probably javac implementations written in C, but the reference
    implementation from Sun is entirely written in Java, last time I looked.
    Mark Bluemel, Nov 8, 2007
    #5
  6. Mark Bluemel Guest

    lid wrote:
    >
    >> 2) I have heard that the java compiler javac is purely written in C
    >> how true is this statement...???

    >
    > I would be unsurprised to find that javac is implemented (at least
    > partly) in Java, but the JVM that it would run on in that case is
    > almost definitely written in C.


    Or C++ (much of Sun's "Hotspot" implementation), or Java (Jalapeno), or
    something else ...
    Mark Bluemel, Nov 8, 2007
    #6
  7. Mark Bluemel wrote:
    >> I would be unsurprised to find that javac is implemented (at least
    >> partly) in Java, but the JVM that it would run on in that case is
    >> almost definitely written in C.

    >
    > Or C++ (much of Sun's "Hotspot" implementation), or Java (Jalapeno), or
    > something else ...


    But presumably Jalapeno then has to run on *another* virtual machine :)

    --
    Philip Potter pgp <at> doc.ic.ac.uk
    Philip Potter, Nov 8, 2007
    #7
  8. Mark Bluemel Guest

    Philip Potter wrote:
    > Mark Bluemel wrote:
    >>> I would be unsurprised to find that javac is implemented (at least
    >>> partly) in Java, but the JVM that it would run on in that case is
    >>> almost definitely written in C.

    >>
    >> Or C++ (much of Sun's "Hotspot" implementation), or Java (Jalapeno),
    >> or something else ...

    >
    > But presumably Jalapeno then has to run on *another* virtual machine :)


    I don't think so, but I don't know any of the details. A paper linked
    from http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/alpern99implementing.html discusses
    this, though.
    Mark Bluemel, Nov 8, 2007
    #8
  9. wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I was going through Mr "Richard heathfields" site , it is written as
    > follows:-
    >
    > Some people think C has no role to play in the modern programming
    > world. I would consider this opinion to have rather more validity if
    > it weren't for the fact that even those who express it use C code on a
    > daily basis (whether they realise it or not). C programs and libraries
    > are woven into the very fabric of the modern programming world, and
    > only a fool thinks otherwise.
    >
    > Well Mr heathfield can you explain your statement in a clear & brief
    > manner, even my peers ask this question most of the time, so that i
    > can give them some good answers.
    >
    > my colleagues always advice me on the following lines:-
    >
    > 1)C why learn it, it is of no use for ordinary programmers like us,it
    > is a language for nerds.
    >
    > 2) it has no role of C language in a windows development
    > environment...???(they say c is purely for *nix environment)
    >
    > 3) for ordinary programmers just knowledge of database design
    > concepts, SQL,SDLC, then a language like java or C# will earn the
    > bread and butter...???


    These three questions all kind of imply one question: "Is C a good
    language?" or "Is C better than <other language>?"

    This is actually an FAQ in the comp.lang.c++ FAQ, though it is almost as
    applicable to C:
    http://www.parashift.com/c -faq-lite/big-picture.html#faq-6.5

    If all the programmers and all the managers within an organisation use
    C# or Java, then it makes sense for you to learn C# or Java too. If
    everyone uses C, then you should use C. Speaking the same language as
    your colleagues is /much/ more valuable than using the "best" language
    for the job.

    On the other hand, if you are interested in learning about programming
    rather than just trying to get some job done, then C is an excellent
    language to learn. It has many, many different applications: GUI code,
    web servers, DSP processors, embedded devices (such as cars or mobile
    phones), compilers and interpreters (including C compilers, the Perl
    interpreter, games (from NetHack to Quake), and lots more. Once you know
    C, you have a tool which can be used in all these fields.

    I have known C for a long time, but I've only just started working on
    embedded processors and C is the language of choice for my particular
    processor (the Xilinx MicroBlaze soft processor). My previous experience
    writing C for Windows and Linux applications meant I didn't have to
    waste time learning a new language.

    Phil

    --
    Philip Potter pgp <at> doc.ic.ac.uk
    Philip Potter, Nov 8, 2007
    #9
  10. James Kuyper Guest

    lid wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > <> wrote:

    ....
    >> 1) can any one point out good enough tutorials showing how to make gui
    >> app in C(with the help of graphical libraries) just as we do in
    >> java...???(no curses please, i don't like it)

    >
    > 1-57231-995-X



    Would you care to identify what that character string means? I've got an
    educated guess, but I shouldn't have to guess.
    James Kuyper, Nov 8, 2007
    #10
  11. "James Kuyper" <> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:eek:NCYi.5988$3j7.443@trnddc02...
    > lid wrote:
    >> In article <>,
    >> <> wrote:

    > ...
    >>> 1) can any one point out good enough tutorials showing how to make gui
    >>> app in C(with the help of graphical libraries) just as we do in
    >>> java...???(no curses please, i don't like it)

    >>
    >> 1-57231-995-X

    >
    >
    > Would you care to identify what that character string means? I've got an
    > educated guess, but I shouldn't have to guess.

    Looks like an ISBN to me...

    http://www.amazon.de/Programming-Wi...208541-8317352?ie=UTF8&qid=1194523822&sr=11-1
    Joachim Schmitz, Nov 8, 2007
    #11
  12. James Kuyper Guest

    wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I was going through Mr "Richard heathfields" site , it is written as
    > follows:-
    >
    > Some people think C has no role to play in the modern programming
    > world. I would consider this opinion to have rather more validity if
    > it weren't for the fact that even those who express it use C code on a
    > daily basis (whether they realise it or not). C programs and libraries
    > are woven into the very fabric of the modern programming world, and
    > only a fool thinks otherwise.
    >
    > Well Mr heathfield can you explain your statement in a clear & brief
    > manner, even my peers ask this question most of the time, so that i
    > can give them some good answers.


    Since he declined to expand on his statement, I'll give a stab at it.
    Even people who never read or write a single line of C code are
    constantly using tools that were written in C. The system utilities are
    often written in C. In many cases the compilers for other languages are
    written in C. In many cases compilers for other languages produce C code
    as an intermediate step before using a C compiler to create the actual
    executable. Even people who never go near a computer terminal are
    constantly using devices that have small computers embedded in them that
    the user is probably unaware of, and those embedded computers are often
    running programs written in C, or at least in a variant of C.

    I think Richard Heathfield may have gone too far by calling the people
    who are unaware of this "fools". If the use of C is well hidden (and I
    think every one of the cases I described above is fairly well hidden
    from the ordinary user), I don't think that people can be justifiably be
    called fools just because they're unaware of it.
    My father is a technophobe who probably doesn't even know what C is; but
    I don't think that makes him a fool - he's fairly wise in many ways that
    have nothing to do with computers. I have a brother who's president of a
    large organization, who constantly uses computers in connection with his
    business, but only as a user, never as a programmer. He might have heard
    of C, but I doubt that he's aware of any of the facts I've given above,
    and he's certainly not a fool.
    James Kuyper, Nov 8, 2007
    #12
  13. Mark Bluemel wrote:
    > Philip Potter wrote:
    > > Mark Bluemel wrote:
    > >>> I would be unsurprised to find that javac is implemented (at least
    > >>> partly) in Java, but the JVM that it would run on in that case is
    > >>> almost definitely written in C.
    > >>
    > >> Or C++ (much of Sun's "Hotspot" implementation), or Java (Jalapeno),
    > >> or something else ...

    > >
    > > But presumably Jalapeno then has to run on *another* virtual machine :)

    >
    > I don't think so, but I don't know any of the details. A paper linked
    > from http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/alpern99implementing.html discusses
    > this, though.


    i don't know what are you talking about
    the full source of jdk 6 is available (i've already posted a link)
    and it's written in c
    (of course library functions etc are written in java but the core is c)
    Szabolcs Nagy, Nov 8, 2007
    #13
  14. James Kuyper said:

    <snip>

    > Since he declined to expand on his statement, I'll give a stab at it.


    I'd gladly have obliged if I could have done so more clearly and more
    briefly than the original statement. I could not think of a way to do so.

    But it's just as well that I didn't, since your reply raises an interesting
    and important flaw in my original statement.

    <snip>

    > I think Richard Heathfield may have gone too far by calling the people
    > who are unaware of this "fools".


    So does Richard Heathfield. I have recast the original statement as
    follows:

    "C programs and libraries are woven into the very fabric of the modern
    programming world, and anyone who thinks otherwise betrays their ignorance
    of that world."

    Better?

    --
    Richard Heathfield <http://www.cpax.org.uk>
    Email: -http://www. +rjh@
    Google users: <http://www.cpax.org.uk/prg/writings/googly.php>
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Richard Heathfield, Nov 8, 2007
    #14
  15. James Kuyper Guest

    Richard Heathfield wrote:
    ....
    >> I think Richard Heathfield may have gone too far by calling the people
    >> who are unaware of this "fools".

    >
    > So does Richard Heathfield. I have recast the original statement as
    > follows:
    >
    > "C programs and libraries are woven into the very fabric of the modern
    > programming world, and anyone who thinks otherwise betrays their ignorance
    > of that world."
    >
    > Better?


    Yes.
    James Kuyper, Nov 8, 2007
    #15
  16. Richard Heathfield wrote:
    > James Kuyper said:
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    >> Since he declined to expand on his statement, I'll give a stab at it.

    >
    > I'd gladly have obliged if I could have done so more clearly and more
    > briefly than the original statement. I could not think of a way to do so.


    Now you're just playing word games again. The offending request was:

    > Well Mr heathfield can you explain your statement in a clear & brief
    > manner,


    He asked you to explain the statement. I take 'explain' to mean expand
    upon, fill in the gaps, put in more details; which naturally implies
    that the explanation will be longer than the statement. Thankfully, at
    no point did the OP ask for an explanation shorter than the statement,
    so this is indeed a perfectly possible task.

    A 'brief explanation' can be longer than a statement, just as a 'small
    elephant' can be larger than a dog.

    --
    Philip Potter pgp <at> doc.ic.ac.uk
    Philip Potter, Nov 8, 2007
    #16
  17. Philip Potter said:

    > Richard Heathfield wrote:
    >> James Kuyper said:
    >>
    >> <snip>
    >>
    >>> Since he declined to expand on his statement, I'll give a stab at it.

    >>
    >> I'd gladly have obliged if I could have done so more clearly and more
    >> briefly than the original statement. I could not think of a way to do
    >> so.

    >
    > Now you're just playing word games again.


    No, I wasn't, although I agree that you make a valid point, below.

    > The offending request was:


    Well, presumably you intend "offending" to be taken in the informal sense,
    close to "relevant" in meaning. Certainly I wasn't offended by it.

    >
    > > Well Mr heathfield can you explain your statement in a clear & brief
    > > manner,

    >
    > He asked you to explain the statement. I take 'explain' to mean expand
    > upon, fill in the gaps, put in more details; which naturally implies
    > that the explanation will be longer than the statement. Thankfully, at
    > no point did the OP ask for an explanation shorter than the statement,
    > so this is indeed a perfectly possible task.


    Indeed. Fortunately, James has now saved me the trouble. :)

    > A 'brief explanation' can be longer than a statement, just as a 'small
    > elephant' can be larger than a dog.


    Although of course it depends on the size of the dog, and of the elephant.
    It may even depend on the state of mind of the observer. I recall a Calvin
    & Hobbes cartoon where a small wasp was chasing Calvin, and (in relation
    to Calvin) it was drawn considerably larger than a dog. It may even have
    been as large as a very, very small elephant.

    --
    Richard Heathfield <http://www.cpax.org.uk>
    Email: -http://www. +rjh@
    Google users: <http://www.cpax.org.uk/prg/writings/googly.php>
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Richard Heathfield, Nov 8, 2007
    #17
  18. Mark Bluemel Guest

    Szabolcs Nagy wrote:
    > Mark Bluemel wrote:
    >> Philip Potter wrote:
    >>> Mark Bluemel wrote:
    >>>> lid wrote:
    >>>>> I would be unsurprised to find that javac is implemented (at least
    >>>>> partly) in Java, but the JVM that it would run on in that case is
    >>>>> almost definitely written in C.
    >>>> Or C++ (much of Sun's "Hotspot" implementation), or Java (Jalapeno),
    >>>> or something else ...
    >>> But presumably Jalapeno then has to run on *another* virtual machine :)

    >> I don't think so, but I don't know any of the details. A paper linked
    >> from http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/alpern99implementing.html discusses
    >> this, though.

    >
    > i don't know what are you talking about


    For a start I'm saying that, contrary to what you may think, there is
    more than one implementation of javac and more than one implementation
    of the Java Virtual Machine.

    Some of these may be implemented in C but that by no means implies that
    all of them are.

    > the full source of jdk 6 is available (i've already posted a link)
    > and it's written in c


    That is one implementation - not the only one.

    Even that is (probably) by no means entirely implemented in C. I have
    worked extensively with Sun's "Hotspot" JDK codebase (I'm not sure
    whether the link you pointed to is for HotSpot which is why I've added
    "probably" above). Based on my exposure, though I didn't spend much time
    on the core JVM, and as I recall :-

    * large parts of the JVM implementation are written in C++, not C
    * the class libraries are written in Java with supporting
    native code written partially in C and partially in C++

    As I've already pointed out - the Jalapeno JVM implementation is written
    in Java.

    Other JVM implementations may use other languages. I'm aware of one JVM
    where the core bytecode interpreter was implemented in assembler.
    Mark Bluemel, Nov 8, 2007
    #18
  19. Mark Bluemel wrote:
    > For a start I'm saying that, contrary to what you may think, there is
    > more than one implementation of javac and more than one implementation
    > of the Java Virtual Machine.

    thanks now i see
    i've never thought about sun implementing more than one jvm (does it
    make sense?)

    > Other JVM implementations may use other languages. I'm aware of one JVM
    > where the core bytecode interpreter was implemented in assembler.

    ok this makes sense (arm-11 jazelle is obviously faster than a c
    implementation)
    but otherwise it's not clear why they need more than one implementation
    Szabolcs Nagy, Nov 8, 2007
    #19
  20. >>>>> "SA" == sophia agnes <> writes:

    SA> my colleagues always advice me on the following lines:-

    SA> 1)C why learn it, it is of no use for ordinary programmers
    SA> like us,it is a language for nerds.

    If they have no use for it, they should not learn it. It's a
    programming language, not the secret to salvation.

    On the other hand, if they learn it, they are likely to understand a
    number of things better, and suddenly see lots of uses for it. But
    it's their decision to make and their time to spend.

    Why are you letting the uninformed opinions of other people dictate
    what you study and what you learn?

    SA> 2) it has no role of C language in a windows development
    SA> environment...???(they say c is purely for *nix environment)

    The Win32 API is a C API. Draw your own conclusions.

    SA> 3) for ordinary programmers just knowledge of database design
    SA> concepts, SQL,SDLC, then a language like java or C# will earn
    SA> the bread and butter...???

    You can get a paying computer job knowing only C# or Java and SQL,
    yes. However, there's far more to life and to a career than merely
    getting paid. Your colleagues need to consider job satisfaction as
    well.

    SA> 1) can any one point out good enough tutorials showing how to
    SA> make gui app in C(with the help of graphical libraries) just
    SA> as we do in java...???(no curses please, i don't like it)

    GUIs are fairly complicated things. As hard as it is to write a
    useful tutorial on C, it is even harder to write a useful tutorial on
    GUI programming. You almost certainly won't find one online.

    That said, choose a platform -- Windows and Win32, Apple and Carbon,
    or a Unixlike and GTK, and research the second half of the pair.
    You'll probably find more than enough to keep you occupied.

    SA> 2) I have heard that the java compiler javac is purely written
    SA> in C how true is this statement...???

    I believe the source code for javac is publicly available now; look
    for yourself and see.

    Given what javac does, I don't think it can be written in
    strictly-conforming standard C, but it wouldn't surprise me in the
    slightest if it were written predominantly in C.

    Charlton


    --
    Charlton Wilbur
    Charlton Wilbur, Nov 8, 2007
    #20
    1. Advertising

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