RTL for Z8000 series CPU?

Discussion in 'VHDL' started by ajcrm125, Dec 22, 2005.

  1. ajcrm125

    ajcrm125 Guest

    Hey guys, does anyone know where I can get VHDL/Verilog source for the
    Z8001/Z8002 processor?
    Thanks for any info!

    -Adam
     
    ajcrm125, Dec 22, 2005
    #1
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  2. ajcrm125

    Antti Lukats Guest

    "ajcrm125" <> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:...
    > Hey guys, does anyone know where I can get VHDL/Verilog source for the
    > Z8001/Z8002 processor?
    > Thanks for any info!
    >
    > -Adam
    >
    >

    yes, sure!
    www.zilog.com

    I think some other entities have it also but not available.
    the Z8 project at opencores is dead and unuseable, and there is little hope
    that free z8000 core would exist

    Antti
     
    Antti Lukats, Dec 23, 2005
    #2
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  3. On 2005-12-23, Antti Lukats <> wrote:

    >> Hey guys, does anyone know where I can get VHDL/Verilog source for the
    >> Z8001/Z8002 processor?

    >
    > yes, sure!
    > www.zilog.com


    So you're stating that Zilog has VHDL/Verilog for the Z8000
    processor and it's available to the public?

    --
    Grant Edwards grante Yow! All of life is a blur
    at of Republicans and meat!
    visi.com
     
    Grant Edwards, Dec 23, 2005
    #3
  4. ajcrm125

    Antti Lukats Guest

    "Grant Edwards" <> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:...
    > On 2005-12-23, Antti Lukats <> wrote:
    >
    >>> Hey guys, does anyone know where I can get VHDL/Verilog source for the
    >>> Z8001/Z8002 processor?

    >>
    >> yes, sure!
    >> www.zilog.com

    >
    > So you're stating that Zilog has VHDL/Verilog for the Z8000
    > processor and it's available to the public?
    >

    I suppose, if you buy 51% of Zilog stock then its public for you :)

    I stated where to get - not the amount of $$$ that is needed.

    Antti
     
    Antti Lukats, Dec 23, 2005
    #4
  5. > >>> Hey guys, does anyone know where I can get VHDL/Verilog source for the
    > >>> Z8001/Z8002 processor?
    > >>
    > >> yes, sure!
    > >> www.zilog.com

    > >
    > > So you're stating that Zilog has VHDL/Verilog for the Z8000
    > > processor and it's available to the public?
    > >

    > I suppose, if you buy 51% of Zilog stock then its public for you :)
    >
    > I stated where to get - not the amount of $$$ that is needed.
    >
    > Antti
    >
    >


    The Z8000 was designed before Verilog existed. I doubt that they
    still even have the schematics. The Z8002 is available in Verilog
    from www.systemyde.com , but it's not free. (But it's significantly
    cheaper than buying half of Zilog.)

    Monte
     
    Monte Dalrymple, Dec 23, 2005
    #5
  6. ajcrm125

    Peter Alfke Guest

    The Z8000 was designed at the transistor level by Shima, who also had
    designed the 4004, 8008, 8080, and Z80. No logic diagram existed when I
    got involved in the transfer to second-source AMD.
    Those were the days..(1979/80). Hi, Monte!
    Peter Alfke
     
    Peter Alfke, Dec 23, 2005
    #6
  7. "Peter Alfke" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > The Z8000 was designed at the transistor level by Shima, who also had
    > designed the 4004, 8008, 8080, and Z80. No logic diagram existed when I
    > got involved in the transfer to second-source AMD.
    > Those were the days..(1979/80). Hi, Monte!
    > Peter Alfke
    >


    Hello Peter, long time no see!

    Yes, Shima's schematics were a nightmare to try to understand,
    given that he only drew transistors, and there were only signal
    names for signals that left a sheet. But if you laid the schematic
    sheets out so that the signals matched up, you had a complete
    floorplan of the device. And the transistors on the sheets were
    good guides for the layout designers when they were doing
    the layout, because the "density" of schematic transistors was
    relatively proportional to the layout density. Not like today,
    when I can describe a few thousand transistors in a couple of
    pages of Verilog code...

    I doubt that those schematics survive though, as they predated
    the era of document control at Zilog.

    Monte
     
    Monte Dalrymple, Dec 23, 2005
    #7
  8. ajcrm125

    ajcrm125 Guest

    Looks like it back to sqaure one then.. doing it myself.
    Too bad OpenCores doesn't have one. Maybe when I finish this one I can
    submit it and save other poor saps like me the trouble. :-D
    -Adam
     
    ajcrm125, Dec 23, 2005
    #8
  9. ajcrm125

    Peter Alfke Guest

    Adam, if I were you, I would contact Zilog. The Z8000 is their design,
    they probably have some legal rights (patents must be expired, since
    the Z8000 was introduced around 1980, but there may be copyrights etc
    that live much longer).
    The Z8000 had many fans, especially in the military markets. Maybe
    Zilog will help you, in order to help their frustrated Z8000 users.
    You never know. They may become your friend, and you definitely do not
    want them as your enemy...
    Peter Alfke (at Zilog only 1978-1980)
     
    Peter Alfke, Dec 23, 2005
    #9
  10. ajcrm125

    ajcrm125 Guest

    How would I be violating anything if I made a Z8000 equivalent design
    in Verilog/VHDL? I mean, if they had source for it, and I tweaked it
    slightly and called it my own, I can see where that crosses the line.
    But reverse engineering a design from its databook and creating a clone
    isn't copyright infringement from what I understand.
    What do you think?
    -Adam
     
    ajcrm125, Dec 23, 2005
    #10
  11. ajcrm125

    Peter Alfke Guest

    In the early 70's there was a company that built an early
    microprocessor, and gave it the Data General Nova instruction set
    ("it's popular, so why burden designers with another architecture?")
    Data General sued, I got dragged in as witness, and if I remember
    right, DG won.
    Too many lawyers, too few good engineers. My opinion. Peter Alfke

    Shakespeare wrote in the Second Part of King Henry the Sixth, Act IV
    Scene 2:

    CADE. 'I thank you, good people- there shall be no money; all shall eat
    and drink on my score, and I will apparel them all in one livery, that
    they may agree like brothers and worship me their lord.'
    DICK. 'The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.'
     
    Peter Alfke, Dec 24, 2005
    #11
  12. ajcrm125

    ajcrm125 Guest

    But isn't that how Intel was founded? Didn't they reverse engineer
    IBM's 8086 and create their own (or was it the 8080). In fact, IBM was
    making x86 equivalent CPUs for a while before they went full force with
    PPC. And then there's AMD who's still doing it.. etc..etc.

    And also, if that were the case, I would also think that guys who write
    software emulators that emulate specific processors would also get
    hammered.

    I'm only mimiking what's already been done:
    http://www.systemyde.com/proc_tab.html
    http://smaplab.ri.uah.edu/dmsms/damarlas.pdf
    http://csdl2.computer.org/persagen/...5/00/0465toc.xml&DOI=10.1109/VIUF.1999.801975
     
    ajcrm125, Dec 24, 2005
    #12
  13. ajcrm125

    Peter Alfke Guest

    Let me clarify:
    Intel developed and designed the 4004, then 8008, which evolved into
    the 8080. Then there ws the race to 16 bits: Intel 8086, Motorola
    68000, and Zilog Z8000.
    Intel also made an economy-version of the 8086, called 8088 (8-bit bus
    insted of 16-bit), and IBM picked this intel 8088 for their PC. IBM was
    not in the commodity microprocessor business in those days, and IBM
    never manufactured 8086-like chips.
    And then there is the story how Bill Gates sold them an operating
    system that he was about to acquire...Facts can be stranger than
    fiction.
    Peter Alfke
     
    Peter Alfke, Dec 24, 2005
    #13
  14. ajcrm125

    Peter Alfke Guest

    Let me clarify:
    Intel developed and designed the 4004, then 8008, which evolved into
    the 8080. Then there ws the race to 16 bits: Intel 8086, Motorola
    68000, and Zilog Z8000.
    Intel also made an economy-version of the 8086, called 8088 (8-bit bus
    insted of 16-bit), and IBM picked this intel 8088 for their PC. IBM was
    not in the commodity microprocessor business in those days, and IBM
    never manufactured 8086-like chips.
    And then there is the story how Bill Gates sold them an operating
    system that he was about to acquire...Facts can be stranger than
    fiction.
    Peter Alfke
     
    Peter Alfke, Dec 24, 2005
    #14
  15. On 2005-12-24, ajcrm125 <> wrote:

    > But isn't that how Intel was founded?


    What?! Are you on crack?

    > Didn't they reverse engineer IBM's 8086 and create their own


    No. IBM used the Intel 8088 and later the 8086. Both were
    100% Intel designs. IBM also evaluated the Motorola 68K
    family, but the 8-bit bus version wasn't going to be available
    in time.

    > (or was it the 8080). In fact, IBM was making x86 equivalent
    > CPUs for a while before they went full force with PPC.


    I don't remember hearing about that. Got any references?

    > And then there's AMD who's still doing it.. etc..etc.


    Several vendors have made Intel-architecture compatible CPUs.
    All were either licensed from Intel or reverse engineered from
    Intel processors.

    --
    Grant Edwards
     
    Grant Edwards, Dec 24, 2005
    #15
  16. ajcrm125

    rk Guest

    http://www.intel.com/museum/online/hist_micro/hof/



    "ajcrm125" <> wrote in
    news::

    > But isn't that how Intel was founded? Didn't they reverse
    > engineer IBM's 8086 and create their own (or was it the 8080). In
    > fact, IBM was making x86 equivalent CPUs for a while before they
    > went full force with PPC. And then there's AMD who's still doing
    > it.. etc..etc.
    >
    > And also, if that were the case, I would also think that guys who
    > write software emulators that emulate specific processors would
    > also get hammered.
    >
    > I'm only mimiking what's already been done:
    > http://www.systemyde.com/proc_tab.html
    > http://smaplab.ri.uah.edu/dmsms/damarlas.pdf
    > http://csdl2.computer.org/persagen/DLAbsToc.jsp?resourcePath=/dl/pr
    > oceedings/viuf/&toc=comp/proceedings/viuf/1999/0465/00/0465toc.xml&
    > DOI=10.1109/VIUF.1999.801975
    >
    >




    --
    rk, Just an OldEngineer
    "The number of people having any connection with the project must be
    restricted in an almost vicious manner. Use a small number of good
    people." -- Kelly Johnson, as quoted in _Skunk Works_
     
    rk, Dec 24, 2005
    #16
  17. ajcrm125

    Chuck F. Guest

    ajcrm125 wrote:
    >
    > But isn't that how Intel was founded? Didn't they reverse
    > engineer IBM's 8086 and create their own (or was it the 8080).
    > In fact, IBM was making x86 equivalent CPUs for a while before
    > they went full force with PPC. And then there's AMD who's still
    > doing it.. etc..etc.


    Utter nonsense. Intel developed the 4004, then the 8008, and the
    8080 was an outgrowth of that. Intels primary business at the time
    was memory, including RAM and ePROMs. Their purpose in developing
    uCs was to expand their memory business. The 8086/8 were further
    developments of the 8080, and were licensed to AMD.

    At that time engineers had a lot more sense than they seem to
    today, and wouldn't consider designing in a sole-source part. Thus
    the license was a business necessity. The AMD license lasted
    through the 286, IIRC, after which AMD designed their own CPUs.

    --
    "If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
    the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
    "show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
    "Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
    More details at: <http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/>
     
    Chuck F., Dec 24, 2005
    #17
  18. ajcrm125

    ajcrm125 Guest

    Grant Edwards wrote:
    > On 2005-12-24, ajcrm125 <> wrote:
    >
    > > But isn't that how Intel was founded?

    >
    > What?! Are you on crack?
    >
    > > Didn't they reverse engineer IBM's 8086 and create their own

    >
    > No. IBM used the Intel 8088 and later the 8086. Both were
    > 100% Intel designs. IBM also evaluated the Motorola 68K
    > family, but the 8-bit bus version wasn't going to be available
    > in time.
    >

    Someone reversed engineered something back in the day.. I just can't
    remember who. I'll do some digging.

    > > (or was it the 8080). In fact, IBM was making x86 equivalent
    > > CPUs for a while before they went full force with PPC.

    >
    > I don't remember hearing about that. Got any references?

    Yep... me. :) I work for IBM and back when I joined we were making
    486's called "Blue Lightning"

    > > And then there's AMD who's still doing it.. etc..etc.

    >
    > Several vendors have made Intel-architecture compatible CPUs.
    > All were either licensed from Intel or reverse engineered from
    > Intel processors.

    Reverese engineered.. there ya go. :)
     
    ajcrm125, Dec 24, 2005
    #18
  19. ajcrm125

    ajcrm125 Guest

    Interesting reading... this is not the case of reverse engineering I'm
    reffering to above, this is just another example:
    "While exactly copying a processor's microarchitecture would be
    illegal, creating a compatible product through the use of an original
    "clean room" design is legally protected. According to Halfhill, Intel
    clearly reverse-engineered AMD's products, a tactic AMD and other X86
    chip designers have used to quickly catch up to Intel's historical
    leadership in the design of new microprocessors."
     
    ajcrm125, Dec 24, 2005
    #19
  20. ajcrm125

    ajcrm125 Guest

    >Someone reversed engineered something back in the day.. I just can't
    >remember who. I'll do some digging.

    Ahhh... I think what I remember was the whole Compaq/IBM episode with
    Compaq reverse engineering the IBM BIOS. Although I do remember a TV
    show where an engineer was interview and he basically said "We had to
    go though every possible opcode and see figure out what it did so we
    could create a microprocessor that did the same thing". Man once you
    hit 30 your memory just aint what it used to be.....


    Anywho.. seing as how I'm using 0% of the originla Z8000
    microarchitecture (as non is documented) I should be all set.
     
    ajcrm125, Dec 24, 2005
    #20
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