C
Chintakrindi Meghanath
Hi
Is there any Ruby certification ?
Thanks
Meghanath
Is there any Ruby certification ?
Thanks
Meghanath
D
Daniel Lewis
I haven't heard of one, but maybe there should be, I think at the
moment industry are just trusting that people have Ruby/Rails
experience.
There are a few university courses that now have Ruby on Rails content.
Daniel.
J
James Britt
Chintakrindi said:
I think quite few here are 'certified'.
Seriously, there are no Ruby certification programs (that I've heard of
at least), and I hope it stays that way.
James
--
http://www.ruby-doc.org - The Ruby Documentation Site
http://www.rubyxml.com - News, Articles, and Listings for Ruby & XML
http://www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
http://www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
P
Peter Hickman
Certification tends to get pushed as a 'good thing' by people sellingChintakrindi said:
certification or by programmers who don't have the skills. There are
companies who will certify Perl programmers, which was news to myself
and many, many Perl programmers. None of whom are certified.
D
Daniel Lewis
I agree. I think the best way to know a language is to have a little
search around on the internet and find a good book... then practice
practice practice. A good programmer should be able to change from one
language to another with very little effort, I think its very possible
to learn a language by looking at some programming cookbook examples.
However, if someone is very new to programming then Ruby is quite a
nice/easy language to learn, and so beginners may want to learn
programming concepts with Ruby... a course/certification may be good
for them.
Also, in my opinion, i think people should be certified on programming
concepts, such as Agile and Web Application Programming. Certificates
could say: "Certified in Agile and Web Application Programming", the
course that they are on could then teach Ruby (or J2EE or other).
I guess you could say I see both good and bad parts in certification.
Daniel.
P
Peter Hickman
Now courses I have no problem with, they are a very good idea to getDaniel said:
people up to speed. However the best you should get from such a course
is a certificate of attendance.
J
James Britt
Daniel said:
I have a hard time believing that someone experienced with only C and
Java, however good they are with them, can really learn Lisp or Haskell
by looking at some examples.
Syntax, maybe, but, that's relatively superficial. What's common is
people who know language X try to pick up language Y, and get just good
enough that they can now write language X programs using language Y
syntax. (The "I can code in Java in any language" syndrome.)
An advantage to a decent Ruby course might be to get people used to
thinking in terms of blocks, dynamic method invocation, open classes,
and assorted Ruby concepts that may not have clear (or any) counterparts
in other languages already known to the student.
Part of learning a new language is unlearning habits acquired while
using another language.
But certification as such is of even less value than simply calculating
one's Ruby number, and far less entertaining. Unless, as suggested,
you're in the certification business.
James Britt
--
http://www.ruby-doc.org - The Ruby Documentation Site
http://www.rubyxml.com - News, Articles, and Listings for Ruby & XML
http://www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
http://www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
D
Daniel Lewis
I have a hard time believing that someone experienced with only C and
will be easy. If you know the concepts of functional programming then
Haskell will be easy. My point was merely on a syntax level. Once you
have the syntax, then people can delve into the other concepts. For
example, I'd like to know how Ruby can work functionally, I'm not
rushing into learning that straight away, I want to learn the
syntax/key-words first.
Basic, C and C++. (which reminds me, i really don't like Pascal).
I picked up Prolog quite easily though, and thats entirely different to C/C=
++.
industry. But I think experience counts for a lot more than a
certificate.
But if you know the concepts of declarative programming, then lisp
will be easy. If you know the concepts of functional programming then
Haskell will be easy. My point was merely on a syntax level. Once you
have the syntax, then people can delve into the other concepts. For
example, I'd like to know how Ruby can work functionally, I'm not
rushing into learning that straight away, I want to learn the
syntax/key-words first.
Yessum, it took me a while to grasp Pascal after learning Visual
Basic, C and C++. (which reminds me, i really don't like Pascal).
I picked up Prolog quite easily though, and thats entirely different to C/C=
++.
Certifications are an easy way for some people to get into the
industry. But I think experience counts for a lot more than a
certificate.
L
Lyle Johnson
I don't think that's what people mean when they tell you you're
"certifiable", James.
J
James Britt
Daniel said:
That sounds very much like begging the question.
Yes, if you understand the concepts of functional programming, then
learning a functional programming language should be reasonably
straightforward.
JavaScript is an unjustly maligned language. It has fair amount of
Lisp-y qualities. It has closures. It has (more or less) open
'classes'. Yet 99% of the JavaScript one encounters looks suspiciously
like C or Java. Most JavaScript books I've seen don't even *mention*
'prototype', let alone give examples using it. And if they do mention
it, they don't do a good job of explaining the implications. So,
people (well, Java/C/VB coders mainly) look at it, make a mental note,
then never use it because it doesn't readily map to an known concept.
Folks go and learn the syntax that is already familiar, and don't learn
the language itself.
Folks at RubyConf 2005 saw at least half the crowd go off to listen to
Chad Fowler and Jim Weirich talk about continuations. The two did a
really good job of explaining what they are and how they work (and
Thanks! I learned a lot). But for those of us who are not already
experienced in using continuations, there's still a fair amount of work
to do to fully understand when and where and why continuations would
make for an appropriate solution to some programming task. I'd venture
that most of the audience left knowing continuation syntax, but far
fewer could make practical use of them. That's not the fault of Chad and
Jim. Skill to do comes of doing, and even then you may need guides to
poke you with a stick until you reach enlightenment.
And that's my beef with many certification programs and tutorials. They
tend to be syntax-centric. You don't really learn the language; you
learn how to construct syntacticly-correct scripts to accomplish tasks
without errors (which, truthfully, is often all some people need to know).
Perhaps the best way to learn Ruby is to post code to ruby-talk and
invite public criticism. You'll get enlightened soon enough.
James
--
http://www.ruby-doc.org - The Ruby Documentation Site
http://www.rubyxml.com - News, Articles, and Listings for Ruby & XML
http://www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
http://www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
O
Obie Fernandez
Assuming we're on the verge of a big boom in Ruby jobs, shouldn't
there be a place where employers can verify a candidates reputation?
I'm thinking a testimonial or trust-based system of some sort.
When the market for Java programmers exploded there were huge numbers
of highly (un)qualified people getting hired to do Java and causing
all sorts of grief to everyone involved. Lots of them had (or claimed
to have) certification.
obie, who believes in learning from history
there be a place where employers can verify a candidates reputation?
I'm thinking a testimonial or trust-based system of some sort.
When the market for Java programmers exploded there were huge numbers
of highly (un)qualified people getting hired to do Java and causing
all sorts of grief to everyone involved. Lots of them had (or claimed
to have) certification.
obie, who believes in learning from history
J
James Britt
Lyle said:
Oh indeed. And, luckily, not alone.
James
--
http://www.ruby-doc.org - The Ruby Documentation Site
http://www.rubyxml.com - News, Articles, and Listings for Ruby & XML
http://www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
http://www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
J
James Britt
Obie said:
Isn't that what a job interview is for?
If a company does not already have someone skilled enough to judge a
candidate's Ruby skills, then they should go search the ruby-talk
archives and see how often this person posted questions, and answered
questions from others.
James
G
gregarican
Peter said:
The idea of programming certification seems a stretch for me to imagine
as well. And I come from an sysadmin from back when Novell
certification started becoming a measuring stick in the early 1990's.
Only to be replaced by the dreaded MCSE certification from Microsoft.
The market got so saturated with "paper MCSE's" that the title
eventually became meaningless. Then once Linux started catching on all
of these Red Hat Certified Engineer training programs starting popping
up.
Someone who takes collegiate courses and earns a degree in computer
programming should be judged based on such qualifications. Someone who
hasn't earned a degree in such a field could be judged on sample code
from their projects they have contributed to. If the sample code is
owned by a former employer then some other self-maintained portfolio
could be presented.
To me I think that certifications are just tangible life-preservers
that PHB's performing interviews are looking for to help them out. It
reminds me of my first boss at a computer manufacturing plant. He had
over ten years worth of hands-on experience using everything under
God's creation and had memorized practically every factoid one could
imagine. But he couldn't pass any certification exams that the company
paid for. Then he hired someone who had just come out of a tech
training school with a certification. That guy could barely turn on a
computer since he had no hands-on experience...
G
gwtmp01
Speaking as someone who has done hiring in a area with lots
of "certification" (Cisco Networking). I can say it means nothing
when I see it on a resume. If I want to know if someone understands
BGP in an interview, I can ask one or two questions and within five
minutes have a pretty good handle on their level of expertise.
I found that there was very little correlation between what I could
discern from someone in person to what was on their resume relative
to "certification".
Sounds like bad hiring practices to me. I think *technical* knowledge
is one of the *easiest* things to figure out in an interview. What I
find really hard to figure out is if the person is going to have a good
attitude, work well with others, be good with customers, and so on.
Gary Wright
S
Steven Arnold
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I've found it very valuable to give interviewees small programming
problems right there in the interview. For example, write a function
that prints all possible permutations of a string, or that translates
a string into Pig Latin, etc. It really can quickly distinguish the
great programmers from the good programmers from the pretenders. I
like to give the interviewee a laptop with the programming language
installed, and ideally they will quickly produce a working program.
Second best is slowly produce a working program. If they're not good
enough to write something that works, they are probably not good
enough for my purposes. Extra points for style, innovative
approaches and especially efficient algorithms.
If the candidate can't actually write software, they're no good. So
you might as well establish that right up front.
steve
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I've found it very valuable to give interviewees small programming
problems right there in the interview. For example, write a function
that prints all possible permutations of a string, or that translates
a string into Pig Latin, etc. It really can quickly distinguish the
great programmers from the good programmers from the pretenders. I
like to give the interviewee a laptop with the programming language
installed, and ideally they will quickly produce a working program.
Second best is slowly produce a working program. If they're not good
enough to write something that works, they are probably not good
enough for my purposes. Extra points for style, innovative
approaches and especially efficient algorithms.
If the candidate can't actually write software, they're no good. So
you might as well establish that right up front.
steve
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P
Phil Tomson
I think quite few here are 'certified'.
Seriously, there are no Ruby certification programs (that I've heard of
at least), and I hope it stays that way.
Agreed. Certification is just a scheme for testing companies to make
money.
Phil
P
Phil Tomson
Maybe these employers should look at things like ruby-talk particpation,
projects listed on Rubyforge and in the RAA, blogs and articles written
by the candidate.
Let's look at it from a different angle: when Java really 'hit'
there were very few people that had more than a year's worth of Java
experience (many had far less). Since the employers wanted to use Java
for their project (probably based on Sun's hype more than anything) they
put themselves in the situation of needing to train Java programmers on
the job (how else would people get significant experience with Java other
than on-the-job?). Can one really expect to find an experienced pool of
Noo_lang programmers prior to significant industry adoption of Noo_lang?
The only way for this to happen is if Noo_lang was used in open source
development prior to industry adoption - we could say that this is the case
with Ruby.
Ruby's adoption by industry is probably going to look a lot different than
Java's adoption. Ruby's adoption is likely being driven more from the
bottom-up, while Java's adoption was primarily driven from the top-down.
Phil
M
MenTaLguY
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That's what Open Source is for. It's not just a hobby, it's a
portfolio.
-mental
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That's what Open Source is for. It's not just a hobby, it's a
portfolio.
-mental
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Daniel Berger
Obie said:
You can rank your peers on RubyForge, although I realize relatively few
Ruby programmers have accounts there.....just the best ones.
Just a totally unbiased opinion from a guy who also happens to have an
account on RubyForge.
- Dan