Scrollbar vsus doctype query

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Fokke Nauta, Jan 24, 2011.

  1. Fokke Nauta

    Fokke Nauta Guest

    Hi all,

    I get a bit lost here.
    In a separate CSS style sheet I use:

    body {
    scrollbar-face-color: #008080;
    scrollbar-shadow-color: #008080;
    scrollbar-highlight-color: #FFF6BD;
    scrollbar-3dlight-color: #FFF6BD;
    scrollbar-darkshadow-color: #008080;
    scrollbar-track-color: #FFF6BD;
    scrollbar-arrow-color: #FFF6BD;
    }

    When I use in my web page the doctype:
    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
    then the CSS style sheet works well, but the scrollbars are standard. The
    scrollbar doesn't show the CSS settings.

    When I use doctype:
    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
    The scrollbars show the settings I specified in the CSS sheet but the other
    CSS settings (like font size) are incorrect.

    Is there any way the CSS settings will be shown correctly AND the scrollbars
    will show correctly too?

    I use IE8 and Opera to view the website, as Firefox, Chrome and Safari won't
    show the scrollbar properties anyway.
    Is there any way to let them show the scrollbar properties?

    Many thanks in advance.

    Best regards,
    Fokke Nauta
    Fokke Nauta, Jan 24, 2011
    #1
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  2. Fokke Nauta wrote:

    > I get a bit lost here.


    Welcome to the world of Quirks Mode!

    > scrollbar-face-color: #008080;


    That's outside the current de facto excuse for a standard for CSS, the CSS
    2.1 draft.

    > When I use in my web page the doctype:
    > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
    > "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
    > then the CSS style sheet works well, but the scrollbars are standard.


    Not surprising, because the doctype triggers "standards mode" (i.e., not
    intentionally very broken mode).

    > When I use doctype:
    > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
    > The scrollbars show the settings I specified in the CSS sheet but the
    > other CSS settings (like font size) are incorrect.


    Not surprising, because that doctype triggers "Quirks Mode" (i.e.,
    intentionally very broken mode) on IE, which is what matters here.

    > Is there any way the CSS settings will be shown correctly AND the
    > scrollbars will show correctly too?


    Correctly as per which specification? Anyway, Quirks Mode is what the name
    suggests - something quirky and undocumented. If you trigger it, you get
    loads of different "features", without being able to pick up those you want.
    See
    http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/quirks-mode.html

    > I use IE8 and Opera to view the website, as Firefox, Chrome and
    > Safari won't show the scrollbar properties anyway.


    I'm surprised - which version of Opera recognizes those properties, in which
    mode?

    > Is there any way to let them show the scrollbar properties?


    New versions of IE apparently recognize them in Quirks Mode only. You need
    to decide whether you wish to get all you get with that, whatever it might
    be.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Jukka K. Korpela, Jan 24, 2011
    #2
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  3. Fokke Nauta

    Fokke Nauta Guest

    "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote in message
    news:k1l%o.2614$...
    > Fokke Nauta wrote:
    >
    >> I get a bit lost here.

    >
    > Welcome to the world of Quirks Mode!
    >
    >> scrollbar-face-color: #008080;

    >
    > That's outside the current de facto excuse for a standard for CSS, the CSS
    > 2.1 draft.
    >
    >> When I use in my web page the doctype:
    >> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
    >> "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
    >> then the CSS style sheet works well, but the scrollbars are standard.

    >
    > Not surprising, because the doctype triggers "standards mode" (i.e., not
    > intentionally very broken mode).
    >
    >> When I use doctype:
    >> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
    >> The scrollbars show the settings I specified in the CSS sheet but the
    >> other CSS settings (like font size) are incorrect.

    >
    > Not surprising, because that doctype triggers "Quirks Mode" (i.e.,
    > intentionally very broken mode) on IE, which is what matters here.
    >
    >> Is there any way the CSS settings will be shown correctly AND the
    >> scrollbars will show correctly too?

    >
    > Correctly as per which specification? Anyway, Quirks Mode is what the name
    > suggests - something quirky and undocumented. If you trigger it, you get
    > loads of different "features", without being able to pick up those you
    > want. See
    > http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/quirks-mode.html
    >
    >> I use IE8 and Opera to view the website, as Firefox, Chrome and
    >> Safari won't show the scrollbar properties anyway.

    >
    > I'm surprised - which version of Opera recognizes those properties, in
    > which mode?
    >
    >> Is there any way to let them show the scrollbar properties?

    >
    > New versions of IE apparently recognize them in Quirks Mode only. You need
    > to decide whether you wish to get all you get with that, whatever it might
    > be.
    >


    Thanks, Yukka.
    I am a lot wiser now. Never knew those things.
    Best to avoid Quirks mode, I believe. So no coloured scrollbars.
    I use (among other browsers for testing) Opera 11 build 1156.
    When I use that Quirks mode in the html document this Opera indeed
    recognizes the scrollbar properties!

    Best regards,
    Fokke
    Fokke Nauta, Jan 24, 2011
    #3
  4. Fokke Nauta wrote:

    > I use (among other browsers for testing) Opera 11 build 1156.
    > When I use that Quirks mode in the html document this Opera indeed
    > recognizes the scrollbar properties!


    I was surprised, because I have exactly the same version. I first thought
    this might be a platform difference, but it seems that it's yet another
    oddity in the browser: when I modify the page e.g. by removing the doctype,
    to trigger Quirks Mode, and reload the page, the scrollbars remain standard,
    unstyled. But if i View Developer tools, Page properties, to see that the
    page is indeed in "compatibility mode" (i.e., Quirks Mode), then close those
    properties, the page magically turns to using styled scrollbars.

    It also works the other way round: adding a doctype that triggers Standards
    Mode and reloading the page does not affect the scrollbars - but after
    viewing pare properties, they return to "standards".

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Jukka K. Korpela, Jan 24, 2011
    #4
  5. Fokke Nauta

    Fokke Nauta Guest

    "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote in message
    news:syl%o.2637$...
    > Fokke Nauta wrote:
    >
    >> I use (among other browsers for testing) Opera 11 build 1156.
    >> When I use that Quirks mode in the html document this Opera indeed
    >> recognizes the scrollbar properties!

    >
    > I was surprised, because I have exactly the same version. I first thought
    > this might be a platform difference, but it seems that it's yet another
    > oddity in the browser: when I modify the page e.g. by removing the
    > doctype, to trigger Quirks Mode, and reload the page, the scrollbars
    > remain standard, unstyled. But if i View Developer tools, Page properties,
    > to see that the page is indeed in "compatibility mode" (i.e., Quirks
    > Mode), then close those properties, the page magically turns to using
    > styled scrollbars.
    >
    > It also works the other way round: adding a doctype that triggers
    > Standards Mode and reloading the page does not affect the scrollbars - but
    > after viewing pare properties, they return to "standards".
    >


    It shouldn't be a platform difference. BTW I use XP Pro 32.
    But this is funny.
    When I use <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
    the scrollbars are coloured, and when I replace the doctype by <!DOCTYPE
    HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd"> and reload the page, the scrollbars
    are standard. So this works slightly different at your place.
    I haven't found the developer tools yet, but they might be interesting.

    Fokke
    Fokke Nauta, Jan 24, 2011
    #5
  6. Fokke Nauta

    Tim Streater Guest

    In article <>,
    "Fokke Nauta" <> wrote:

    > Hi all,
    >
    > I get a bit lost here.
    > In a separate CSS style sheet I use:
    >
    > body {
    > scrollbar-face-color: #008080;
    > scrollbar-shadow-color: #008080;
    > scrollbar-highlight-color: #FFF6BD;
    > scrollbar-3dlight-color: #FFF6BD;
    > scrollbar-darkshadow-color: #008080;
    > scrollbar-track-color: #FFF6BD;
    > scrollbar-arrow-color: #FFF6BD;
    > }


    [rest of horror story snipped]

    You need:

    1) a *smack* for using non-standard markup

    2) a *second* smack for wanting to have some scrollbars that differ from
    the platform default. The is an *extremely* irritating thing that some
    people seem to want to do, which signals that their site is one to avoid
    at all costs.

    --
    Tim

    "That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
    nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" -- Bill of Rights 1689
    Tim Streater, Jan 24, 2011
    #6
  7. Tim Streater wrote:

    > You need:
    >
    > 1) a *smack* for using non-standard markup


    No markup was mentioned (unless you count document type declarations as
    markup, and they were standard).

    You need a smack for playing with technical terms like "markup" without
    knowing what they mean.

    > 2) a *second* smack for wanting to have some scrollbars that differ
    > from the platform default. The is an *extremely* irritating thing
    > that some people seem to want to do, which signals that their site is
    > one to avoid at all costs.


    Well, maybe. But for all you can know, the OP might be using an HTML
    document with associated CSS code for his personal use, or for use in the
    intranet of Lovers of Colored Scrollbars. There's no "www" in the name of
    this group.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Jukka K. Korpela, Jan 25, 2011
    #7
  8. Fokke Nauta wrote:

    > When I use <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01
    > Transitional//EN"> the scrollbars are coloured, and when I replace
    > the doctype by <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01
    > Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd"> and reload
    > the page, the scrollbars are standard. So this works slightly
    > different at your place.


    I see the same phenomenon on IE 8, but on Opera 11, it's different (the
    handling of scrollbar properties there is "sticky").

    > I haven't found the developer tools yet, but they might be
    > interesting.


    In my copy of Opera 11 (Finnish version), it's Näytä > Kehittäjän työkalut,
    which I expect to be View > Developer Tools in the English version, as
    that's the obvious back-translation.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Jukka K. Korpela, Jan 25, 2011
    #8
  9. Fokke Nauta

    Fokke Nauta Guest

    "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote in message
    news:7Uu%o.2730$...

    <cut>

    > In my copy of Opera 11 (Finnish version), it's Näytä > Kehittäjän
    > työkalut, which I expect to be View > Developer Tools in the English
    > version, as that's the obvious back-translation.
    >


    I don't have a View button, is this perhaps an extension?

    Fokke
    Fokke Nauta, Jan 25, 2011
    #9
  10. Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Fokke Nauta"
    <> writing in news::

    >
    > "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote in message
    > news:7Uu%o.2730$...
    >
    > <cut>
    >
    >> In my copy of Opera 11 (Finnish version), it's Näytä > Kehittäjän
    >> työkalut, which I expect to be View > Developer Tools in the English
    >> version, as that's the obvious back-translation.
    >>

    >
    > I don't have a View button, is this perhaps an extension?
    >
    > Fokke
    >
    >
    >


    No, it's not an extension, it's probably a menu/toolbar combination. A
    few years ago, Toby Inkster put out an excellent menu/toolbar for
    developers. That toolbar included a view option. You might want to head
    on over to opera.general and ask over there.

    --
    Adrienne Boswell at Home
    Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    Adrienne Boswell, Jan 25, 2011
    #10
  11. Fokke Nauta

    Fokke Nauta Guest

    "Adrienne Boswell" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns9E784D2F1985Barbpenyahoocom@81.169.183.62...
    > Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Fokke Nauta"


    <cut>

    > No, it's not an extension, it's probably a menu/toolbar combination. A
    > few years ago, Toby Inkster put out an excellent menu/toolbar for
    > developers. That toolbar included a view option. You might want to head
    > on over to opera.general and ask over there.
    >
    > --
    > Adrienne Boswell at Home


    Thanks.
    I discovered I didn't have a menu bar. Once I have this, I could easily find
    Dragonfly.
    Looks very handy.

    Fokke
    Fokke Nauta, Jan 25, 2011
    #11
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