Server/OS/Dev environment

Discussion in 'Python' started by Jean, May 22, 2004.

  1. Jean

    Jean Guest

    Hi. I am new to Python, but very eager to learn. I've browsed many
    postings and found conflicting opinions on the best backend and
    development setup. In fact, I am more confused now that when I first
    began investigating this problem.

    I need to create web pages with MySQL as the primary data source.
    What would be the best server set up for this? RH? Windows?
    mod_python? Spyce? Some other templating mechanism?

    To develop such a site, should I be using Vim? Idle? Or Windows gui
    software? Install MySQL & Python on Windows? Stick with Linux?

    A multitude of choices is great for the gurus, but not necessarily so
    for a newbie...

    Thanks for any comments,
    Jean
     
    Jean, May 22, 2004
    #1
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  2. Jean

    Pm Guest

    Jean wrote:

    > Hi. I am new to Python, but very eager to learn. I've browsed many
    > postings and found conflicting opinions on the best backend and
    > development setup. In fact, I am more confused now that when I first
    > began investigating this problem.
    >
    > I need to create web pages with MySQL as the primary data source.
    > What would be the best server set up for this? RH? Windows?
    > mod_python? Spyce? Some other templating mechanism?
    >
    > To develop such a site, should I be using Vim? Idle? Or Windows gui
    > software? Install MySQL & Python on Windows? Stick with Linux?
    >
    > A multitude of choices is great for the gurus, but not necessarily so
    > for a newbie...
    >
    > Thanks for any comments,
    > Jean


    Varietas delectat, Jean. ;)
    I suggest you spend a little time on exploring these and then
    you'll find out what you like best. (It's just like about girls: it'd be
    awful if every guy would prefer the same looks...)

    To add to you confusion, maybe have a look at Zope as well (www.zope.org)
    :))
    Or how about Webware? (http://webware.sourceforge.net/) Or Albatross?
    (http://www.object-craft.com.au/projects/albatross/)

    Best,
    Pm
    --
    E-mail: base64.decodestring('cHJpc3pAYXN5bHVtdGVsLmNvbQ==\n')
     
    Pm, May 22, 2004
    #2
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  3. Jean

    Jean Guest

    Pm <> wrote in message news:<c8n2gt$4si$>...
    > Varietas delectat, Jean. ;)
    > I suggest you spend a little time on exploring these and then
    > you'll find out what you like best. (It's just like about girls: it'd be
    > awful if every guy would prefer the same looks...)
    >
    > To add to you confusion, maybe have a look at Zope as well (www.zope.org)
    > :))
    > Or how about Webware? (http://webware.sourceforge.net/) Or Albatross?
    > (http://www.object-craft.com.au/projects/albatross/)
    >
    > Best,
    > Pm


    Ok. Great, Miklos. Thanks a lot! ;)

    Really, there are 2 items I need. Nice environment for rapid dev and
    keeping codes clean. Of course, over a period of time, I will develop
    my own taste. For now, though, I need to start a real project which
    will double as a learning experience. I don't want to start down the
    wrong path, then have to change course 3-4 months down the line.

    So, what's your "current" setup & why do you like it?

    Regards,
    Jean
     
    Jean, May 22, 2004
    #3
  4. Jean

    Ray Cote Guest

    >Hi. I am new to Python, but very eager to learn.
    Welcome!

    > I've browsed many
    >postings and found conflicting opinions on the best backend and
    >development setup. In fact, I am more confused now that when I first
    >began investigating this problem.

    Languages, text editors, mail clients..., it all comes down to
    personal preferences and precisely what you need to do. Probably need
    to look around at a variety of tools.

    >I need to create web pages with MySQL as the primary data source.
    >What would be the best server set up for this? RH? Windows?
    >mod_python? Spyce? Some other templating mechanism?


    I found it easy to get started with Snakelets
    <snakelets.sourceforge.net/>
    and CherryPy
    <www.cherrypy.org/>

    These are easy to install and get started with.
    I'm also a fairly newbie Python programmer and simply did not have
    the time to wrap my thoughts around large environments like Twisted
    or Zope. Snakelets and CherryPy were a good start for me.

    Python and MySQL run just about anywhere so the 'best' platform is
    probably whatever you have in front of you.

    For myself, my development platform tends to be Mac OS X with the
    BBEdit text editor.
    Deployment tends to be on variants of Linux, BSD, Mac OS X, and Windows.
    Databases tend to be: Oracle, Firebird, PostgreSQL, and MySQL.


    --Ray

    --

    Raymond Cote
    Appropriate Solutions, Inc.
    PO Box 458 ~ Peterborough, NH 03458-0458
    Phone: 603.924.6079 ~ Fax: 603.924.8668
    rgacote(at)AppropriateSolutions.com
    www.AppropriateSolutions.com
     
    Ray Cote, May 22, 2004
    #4
  5. Jean

    Pm Guest

    Jean wrote:

    > Pm <> wrote in message
    > news:<c8n2gt$4si$>...
    >> Varietas delectat, Jean. ;)
    >> I suggest you spend a little time on exploring these and then
    >> you'll find out what you like best. (It's just like about girls: it'd be
    >> awful if every guy would prefer the same looks...)
    >>
    >> To add to you confusion, maybe have a look at Zope as well (www.zope.org)
    >> :))
    >> Or how about Webware? (http://webware.sourceforge.net/) Or Albatross?
    >> (http://www.object-craft.com.au/projects/albatross/)
    >>
    >> Best,
    >> Pm

    >
    > Ok. Great, Miklos. Thanks a lot! ;)
    >
    > Really, there are 2 items I need. Nice environment for rapid dev and
    > keeping codes clean. Of course, over a period of time, I will develop
    > my own taste. For now, though, I need to start a real project which
    > will double as a learning experience. I don't want to start down the
    > wrong path, then have to change course 3-4 months down the line.
    >
    > So, what's your "current" setup & why do you like it?
    >
    > Regards,
    > Jean


    Well, right now I'm struggling with Zope (and there's a PostgreSQL database
    in the pot as well, though you wouldn't need a relational database with
    quite a few webapps when you go the Zope way)
    What I like about it is that it's so powerful/feature rich.
    What I don't like it's hectic development roadmap and some idiosyncrasies.
    The worst is that you don't have a complete text based representation of
    your work, ie. some things are stored in the object oriented database only
    (which you can export as XML but that's no use)
    This is issue is to be addressed in the upcoming Zope3 version, a complete
    rewrite, actually a whole different world. :(
    Also, the somewhat steep learning curve is a problem.
    So have a look and try to find out if you can put up with Zope now.

    I gave Webware (and Albatross) a try, too. They are nice clean Pythonic
    environments.
    I like the server side sessioning about Albatross very much.
    CherryPy, like Ray suggested, is also great to put low/moderate complexity
    site online. Maybe I'm saying this only because now I'm terrified to
    think of how much work it'd take to build a portal site like you can easily
    do with Plone.. http://www.plone.org
    Plone is another layer on CMF which is another (portal) layer
    (http://cmf.zope.org/ ) on top of Zope... phew.
    Maybe go get Plone and install on your Linux/Windows machine. That part is
    very easy. :)

    So other-than-Zope solutions (mod_python?) rulez but
    somehow money has always been in Zope so far for me. ;)
    I guess that's because complex webapps/portals are easier/much less work to
    build with Zope.


    Best,
    Miklós


    --
    E-mail: base64.decodestring('cHJpc3pAYXN5bHVtdGVsLmNvbQ==\n')
     
    Pm, May 22, 2004
    #5
  6. Jean

    Ryan Paul Guest

    On Sat, 22 May 2004 09:16:40 -0700, Jean wrote:

    > Pm <> wrote in message news:<c8n2gt$4si$>
    >> Varietas delectat, Jean. ;)
    >> I suggest you spend a little time on exploring these and then
    >> you'll find out what you like best. (It's just like about girls: it'd be
    >> awful if every guy would prefer the same looks...)
    >>
    >> To add to you confusion, maybe have a look at Zope as well (www.zope.org)
    >> :))
    >> Or how about Webware? (http://webware.sourceforge.net/) Or Albatross?
    >> (http://www.object-craft.com.au/projects/albatross/)
    >>
    >> Best,
    >> Pm

    >
    > Ok. Great, Miklos. Thanks a lot! ;)
    >
    > Really, there are 2 items I need. Nice environment for rapid dev and
    > keeping codes clean. Of course, over a period of time, I will develop
    > my own taste. For now, though, I need to start a real project which
    > will double as a learning experience. I don't want to start down the
    > wrong path, then have to change course 3-4 months down the line.
    >
    > So, what's your "current" setup & why do you like it?
    >
    > Regards,
    > Jean


    zope is like the panacea for an illness that nobody has, but everybody
    has symptoms of. Zope is incredibly impressive, incredibly powerful, it
    does everything, it is brilliantly designed, but it requires immense
    amounts of time and patience to figure out how to employ it effectively,
    and customizing it to fit your needs will usually take more time than it
    would take to construct something from scratch. There are, however,
    numerous content management engines constructed on top of zope that fit
    more specific needs, and can be customized for what you want with
    relatively little sweat/blood. Plone is an excellent example.

    If you can find a Zope product that fits your needs, use it, but if you
    cant, you probably dont want to invest the time it would take to make one
    yourself. (i'm sure you have figured that out if you have glanced at the
    zope documentation yourself.)

    mod_python is great! I have had quite a bit of success using mod_python
    and some xml/xsl related python libraries. I like to use xml and xslt for
    my templating. I put python code in my xml files, and use a little
    pre-processor I threw together to process it. You might want to check out
    http://sqlobject.org/ which makes database access, construction, and
    manipulation a lot more pythonic.

    If you need an extendable web application framework (for writing
    client/server apps etc) you might want to check out the Twistd framework.

    As far as development environments are concerned, you have many excellent
    choices. I use a version of VIM that has a python interpreter compiled
    into it. There are a lot of graphical IDEs with graphical debuggers etc,
    for those who dont dig the 'home-rolled' environment thing- I use Eric3
    when I need a graphical debugger, but it is also an excellent editor.
    Eric3 has a built in project manager and class browser as well, so it
    helps with those slightly bigger projects.

    If you are using somebody else's server make sure that it has the right
    modules, and make sure that it has a relatively up-to-date version of
    python (unless you enjoy not using the nice new features). Many hosting
    services are willing to add modules and perform updates if you ask them
    nicely.

    Good luck with your project!
    --SegPhault
     
    Ryan Paul, May 23, 2004
    #6
  7. Jean

    Jean Guest

    (Jean) wrote in message

    Wow! I got quite a bit to chew here (except for Miklos's little
    teasing at the beginning ;)) I guess I'v always known I have to find
    my own little comfort zone, but with your help, I think I am off to a
    good start. Thanks for the help. I think I am going to like this
    place...

    Regards,
    Jean

    PS., this doesn't mean you can't post additional suggestions ;)
     
    Jean, May 23, 2004
    #7
  8. Jean

    Miklós Guest

    "Ryan Paul" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > On Sat, 22 May 2004 09:16:40 -0700, Jean wrote:
    >
    > zope is like the panacea for an illness that nobody has, but everybody
    > has symptoms of. Zope is incredibly impressive, incredibly powerful, it
    > does everything, it is brilliantly designed, but it requires immense
    > amounts of time and patience to figure out how to employ it effectively,

    [... good stuff deleted]
    > Good luck with your project!
    > --SegPhault
    >


    Yes, I second your evaluation* (once again, I'm developing with Zope..) and
    I appreciate your "mod_python + xml" way. Sounds cool, anyway.
    (As for Twisted, that scared me way too much...) Besides I'm also a VIM
    fan (with compiled-in python, of course ;) ) Will check out Eric3 perhaps.
    For non-Zope things I tend to use another excellent tool written in Python:
    Leo (which is a folding editor for literate programming)

    * but I already overcome most of the Zope shock...

    Best,
    Miklós
    --
    E-mail: base64.decodestring('cHJpc3pAYXN5bHVtdGVsLmNvbQ==\n')
     
    Miklós, May 23, 2004
    #8
  9. Jean

    PF Guest

    I have started with SkunkWeb and it's incredibly powerful.
    The template language is great, it has a lot of useful modules, and it
    doesn't get in the way when I want to use other packages. The way it cuts
    things in components and modules makes it really easy to reuse your code
    bits.
    Plus, it's very very fast. My PC generates 200 KB of html in about 60
    milliseconds, all of it being dynamic.
    On the downside, documentation is scarce, but what there is is well done.

    Zope is impossible to use.

    MySQL kinda sucks. No transactions... what can you do with a database
    with no transactions... no foreign keys... no integrity constraints... no
    "insert or update"... it has AMATEUR written all over it... I like
    postgresql much better. plsql sucks but stored procedures are faster than
    making a pile of requests.

    Anyway, have fun !
     
    PF, May 27, 2004
    #9
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