Should I?

L

Luigi Donatello Asero

Art Sackett said:
[Speaking of java]
Why do you detest it?

Reason number one: I detest Sun Microsystems, particularly Scott
freakin' McNealy, mainly for social/political reasons.

What does he stand for?
Reason number two: I've found that java makes easy things more
difficult than they need to be, and hard things nightmares. It's been
over six years since I really did any serious development in java, so
things might have improved dramatically in the meantime. Once bitten...

I understand but things may have improved as you suggested yourself
Reason number three: It ain't free.

Do you mean that it is not freeware?
As a whole.

It could just be that java and I don't play well together, perhaps due
to my heathen, bohemian ways. A lot of the javaheads I've known were
also MCSE's... no disrespect intended toward any members of that
species. It's just not a culture I can embrace.


What do you mean by MCSE's?
What is it short for?
 
M

Mitja

What does he stand for?

Do you mean that it is not freeware?

What do you mean by MCSE's?
What is it short for?

Do you EVER run out of questions? What could the questions above
_possibly_ have to do with you decision about php, java, perl et al?
Except the one about java being "freeware", to which the answer is roughly
that java virtual machine and compiler _can_ be obtained without charge,
for both Linux and Windows.
 
L

Luigi Donatello Asero

Mitja said:
Do you EVER run out of questions?

People who want to learn more often have questions.
You do not need answer my questions if you do not want to.
You do not even need read my posts, if you do not want to.
 
S

Starshine Moonbeam

Mitja ([email protected]) dropped said:
Do you EVER run out of questions? What could the questions above
_possibly_ have to do with you decision about php, java, perl et al?
Except the one about java being "freeware", to which the answer is roughly
that java virtual machine and compiler _can_ be obtained without charge,
for both Linux and Windows.

Yeah, from Sun.

My j2se 1.4.2_05 was free, vm included.

Now granted, they *do* sell stuff on the site but just a basic VM and
classes wasn't one of them.

Sun's JVM >>>>>>>>>>>> M$'s JVM

Not that there'll be anymore microsoft JVM.
 
A

Art Sackett

Luigi Donatello Asero said:
What does he stand for?

Among other despicable things, he's promoted the idea of forcing us
poor misguided ignorant can't-find-our-asses-with-both-hands Americans
to carry national identification cards which would be "java smart
cards". Of course, Oracle stepped up and offered to provide Uncle Sugar
with the database software to track us all, in exchange for their usual
annual maintenance contracts. I can't support capitalizing on fear,
especially when it infringes upon my constitutionally guaranteed
rights. I'm kinda funny that way.
I understand but things may have improved as you suggested yourself

They may have, but my toolbox is already full enough (for the time
being) without it. I'd hate to have my worst fears confirmed!
Do you mean that it is not freeware?

I mean that it's not free in accordance with the DFSG (Debian Free
Software Guidelines). I can't have the source, I can't modify that
source if I do manage to get it into my possession, I can't
redistribute it (in source or binary form), and I have to agree to a
lengthy list of objectionable terms (via the EULA) if I want to just
use the JVM.
What do you mean by MCSE's?
What is it short for?

Mickeysoft Certified Systems Engineers -- and it's awfully nice of me
to only pervert the first word. :) I can't tell you how much restraint
that required!
 
L

Luigi Donatello Asero

Art Sackett said:
Among other despicable things, he's promoted the idea of forcing us
poor misguided ignorant can't-find-our-asses-with-both-hands Americans
to carry national identification cards which would be "java smart
cards". Of course, Oracle stepped up and offered to provide Uncle Sugar
with the database software to track us all, in exchange for their usual
annual maintenance contracts. I can't support capitalizing on fear,
especially when it infringes upon my constitutionally guaranteed
rights. I'm kinda funny that way.


So you are against electronic identification cards, aren´t you?
But could one not use them to buy and sell on the internet?
That means, people could still enter e website without it but if they would
decide to
buy something, then they would need use a card.
How can we reach a safe e-commerce otherwise?
They may have, but my toolbox is already full enough (for the time
being) without it. I'd hate to have my worst fears confirmed!


I mean that it's not free in accordance with the DFSG (Debian Free
Software Guidelines). I can't have the source, I can't modify that
source if I do manage to get it into my possession, I can't
redistribute it (in source or binary form), and I have to agree to a
lengthy list of objectionable terms (via the EULA) if I want to just
use the JVM.

It would be nicer for the customers if the use of softwares were without any
limitation but what do other companies offer to his or her customers
for its software?
 
S

Steve Pugh

So you are against electronic identification cards, aren´t you?

There are many good reasons to be against them. There was a recent case in
the UK where an employee at the DVLA (which holds the database of drivers'
licenses) passed on the addresses of scientists to animal rights
organisations. The amount of information held by an id card database and
the number of people with access to it would be greater, with an
accompanying greater risk that the id card scheme could be used _by_
criminals and terrorists not _against_ them.
But could one not use them to buy and sell on the internet?

You would be happy to link an government identity card with your credit
card? Yikes.

Hang on, you said 'buy and sell'. So a customer should inspect a retailers
ID card before buying? So the ability to verify an ID card should be
available to everyone in the country? Interesting idea.
That means, people could still enter e website without it but if they
would decide to buy something, then they would need use a card.

I buy a lot of stuff from overseas via the www. Would my UK identity card
let me buy stuff from the USA? Or vice versa?
How can we reach a safe e-commerce otherwise?

e-commerce is safe. If anybody has ever broken the encryption used to
transmit credit card info over the www it hasn't been reported (insert
conspiracy theories here if you like). The majority of fraud is caused by
users giving out their details to people they shouldn't. The remainder is
caused by banks, etc. not securing their servers properly. ID cards won't
make the slightest bit of difference.

Steve
 
L

Luigi Donatello Asero

So you are against electronic identification cards, aren´t you?
But could one not use them to buy and sell on the internet?
That means, people could still enter e website without it but if they
decided
to
buy something, then they would need use a card.
 
L

Luigi Donatello Asero

Steve Pugh said:
There are many good reasons to be against them. There was a recent case in
the UK where an employee at the DVLA (which holds the database of drivers'
licenses) passed on the addresses of scientists to animal rights
organisations. The amount of information held by an id card database and
the number of people with access to it would be greater, with an
accompanying greater risk that the id card scheme could be used _by_
criminals and terrorists not _against_ them.


It was very good of you to mention this problem and I hope to read more on
such a topic
but unfortunately you do not seem to offer a solution to it.
And what about the use of nuclear power? We would be more sure without
nuclear power all over the world ( not just in one country!) in this case.
Without nuclear power we would be sure at least that it could not be used by
terrorists either!
You would be happy to link an government identity card with your credit
card? Yikes.

Hang on, you said 'buy and sell'. So a customer should inspect a retailers
ID card before buying? So the ability to verify an ID card should be
available to everyone in the country? Interesting idea.

No. One site should show that it is really the site it says to be and
contain contact information.
I buy a lot of stuff from overseas via the www. Would my UK identity card
let me buy stuff from the USA? Or vice versa?


e-commerce is safe. If anybody has ever broken the encryption used to
transmit credit card info over the www it hasn't been reported (insert
conspiracy theories here if you like).

Many people do not trust the use of credit cards on internet at all in
Europe.
The situation is probably different in the USA. Therefore it is necessary
to find a more suitable system.
So you are welcome with other suggestions.
 
S

Steve Pugh

It was very good of you to mention this problem and I hope to read more
on such a topic
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/staffordshire/3951945.stm
http://ex-parrot.com/~chris/wwwitter/20041026-sleepwalking_into_idiocy_again.html

but unfortunately you do not seem to offer a solution to it.

The solution is to maintain only the minimum amount of information needed.
To restrict who has access to that information.
To carefully vet those people.
And to respond to problems quickly and efficiently.

But all of that seems to be beyond the abilities of our current government,
so they're going to bring in ID cards instead. :-(
No. One site should show that it is really the site it says to be and
contain contact information.

What does that have to do with ID cards?
Many people do not trust the use of credit cards on internet at all in
Europe.

That's a PR problem. Making everyone in Europe carry ID cards
(and in many countries they already do) won't make them more willing
to use e-commerce.

What a retailer can do is make his site trustworthy. That means
looking and behaving professionally. Using a secure server,
having a clear and easy to find privacy policy, dealing with
complaints promptly, listing offline contact details, providing
alternative means of payment for people who can't or won't pay online,
and building up a good reputation amongst your customer base. In other
words good old fashioned hard work rather than some mythical magic
technology.

Steve
 
L

Luigi Donatello Asero

Steve Pugh said:
http://ex-parrot.com/~chris/wwwitter/20041026-sleepwalking_into_idiocy_again.html

The solution is to maintain only the minimum amount of information needed.
To restrict who has access to that information.
To carefully vet those people.
And to respond to problems quickly and efficiently.

But all of that seems to be beyond the abilities of our current government,
so they're going to bring in ID cards instead. :-(


What does that have to do with ID cards?


That's a PR problem. Making everyone in Europe carry ID cards
(and in many countries they already do) won't make them more willing
to use e-commerce.

What a retailer can do is make his site trustworthy. That means
looking and behaving professionally. Using a secure server,
having a clear and easy to find privacy policy, dealing with
complaints promptly, listing offline contact details, providing
alternative means of payment for people who can't or won't pay online,
and building up a good reputation amongst your customer base. In other
words good old fashioned hard work rather than some mythical magic
technology.

Steve

You assume that the buyer should not identify himself or herself?
How should the seller know that the buyer has come out of age, and be able
to sign contracts, for example?
How should a landlord or landlady know that the tenant should be the person
he says to be as much as it regards intermediation for rent of holiday
lodgings?
Nowadays I can register a letter with return receipt. What about doing
something similar online?
As to the using a secure server you have to use a PKI, anyway.
What is the difference between using a PKI and ID cards?
 
T

Toby Inkster

Luigi said:
Many people do not trust the use of credit cards on internet at all in
Europe.

So? Some people still think that the Earth is flat. Some people still
think that Cliff Richard was really good.

The fact is that HTTPS is far safer than sending card details by post or
giving them over the phone. Whatsmore most banks cover you against online
fraud anyway.
 
A

Art Sackett

Luigi Donatello Asero said:
So you are against electronic identification cards, aren?t you?

Yes. Absolutely.

If the government has a legitimate reason to conduct surveillance of my
activities, they can explain it to a judge and get his approval. Never
mind for a moment that such requests are very, very rarely denied in
this country -- it's at least good that it's a bother, one that would
take them away from their donuts and bull sessions.

I speak from experience when I say that law enforcement agencies are
quick to invade our privacy. They do it all the time, and know that if
they want to use the information they've found in court they'll have to
get a warrant and rediscover it under the guise of legitimacy. In a
former career, those three letter agencies were among my clients and
their computer rooms were opened to me. I've met those guys who pound
the keyboards, and listened carefully while they talked.

One's rights are not defended by giving government all of the personal
information they might ask for. There is absolutely no truth in "an
honest man has nothing to hide." In order to maintain civil rights, a
benevolent government must always be challenged by an adversarial
citizenry. That's precisely what the US Constitution established --
and we've essentially thrown it away.

It's not uncommon in the US for a class of law students to be assigned
to review a questionable case in which the defendant was convicted and
sentenced to death. It's also not uncommon for them to do the work that
leads to the release of an innocent man from death row, usually in
cases in which an overzealous prosecutor took advantage of fabricated
evidence provided by law enforcement, coupled with circumstantial
evidence. That circumstantial evidence just happens to be lying around
everywhere, all the time, and could tie any one of us to a crime that
was committed while we were not in the presence of impeccable witnesses.

Hmmm... a liquor store was burglarized. Let's get the records out and
see who used the ATM at the bank down the street at about that time.
Oh, look, this guy's account was overdrawn. Look at that... he couldn't
get any money out of the machine, but he paid that past due electric
bill an hour before the power was to be cut off. Gee, pal, where'd ya
get the money? (Meanwhile, the burglar who was just passing through the
town is sipping Jack Daniel's as he drives on, fuel in the tank
courtesy of the liquor store's daily receipts -- he didn't use his
national ID card anywhere within the state in which the burglary took
place, so no one even knew he was there.)
But could one not use them to buy and sell on the internet?

One could also use a shotgun to knock the flies off of the windowsill
without having to get off of the sofa.
That means, people could still enter e website without it but if they would
decide to
buy something, then they would need use a card.

I'm opposed to this, and I've been doing e-commerce for years.
How can we reach a safe e-commerce otherwise?

It seems pretty safe to me today. The occasional fraudulent card
transaction occurs, it's true, but that risk exists in the real world,
too. I've yet to have a retailer ask me to provide identification to go
along with my credit card during a card-present transaction. I've used
other people's cards (with their permission, of course) several times.
It would be nicer for the customers if the use of softwares were without any
limitation but what do other companies offer to his or her customers
for its software?

I'm afraid I don't understand the question, but I'd probably do my best
to address it if I did. Care to rephrase it for my poor feeble mind?
 
L

Luigi Donatello Asero

Toby Inkster said:
So? Some people still think that the Earth is flat. Some people still
think that Cliff Richard was really good.

The fact is that HTTPS is far safer than sending card details by post or
giving them over the phone. Whatsmore most banks cover you against online
fraud anyway.

I am not questioning whether it is safer or not. I am supporting the idea
that the use of credit cards is not largely accepted in Europe.
It might be widely accepted in the USA but
I am not interested in selling to customers in the USA.
At the moment I am interested in selling to customers within the EU.
Thus I am interested at present to find and offer ways of payments which are
largely accepted in the EU.
I do not have anything against sites giving the chance of paying by credit
cards as long as they also give some other option of payment which I would
accept.
You may want to visit
http://www.ebusinesslex.net
and
http://istresults.cordis.lu/index.cfm?section=news&tpl=article&ID=57280
 
L

Luigi Donatello Asero

Art Sackett said:
Yes. Absolutely.

If the government has a legitimate reason to conduct surveillance of my
activities, they can explain it to a judge and get his approval. Never
mind for a moment that such requests are very, very rarely denied in
this country -- it's at least good that it's a bother, one that would
take them away from their donuts and bull sessions.

I speak from experience when I say that law enforcement agencies are
quick to invade our privacy. They do it all the time, and know that if
they want to use the information they've found in court they'll have to
get a warrant and rediscover it under the guise of legitimacy. In a
former career, those three letter agencies were among my clients and
their computer rooms were opened to me. I've met those guys who pound
the keyboards, and listened carefully while they talked.

One's rights are not defended by giving government all of the personal
information they might ask for. There is absolutely no truth in "an
honest man has nothing to hide." In order to maintain civil rights, a
benevolent government must always be challenged by an adversarial
citizenry. That's precisely what the US Constitution established --
and we've essentially thrown it away.

It's not uncommon in the US for a class of law students to be assigned
to review a questionable case in which the defendant was convicted and
sentenced to death.

Actually, I am against the use of death penalty.
How many States in the USA still use it?
In the EU we do not have any death penalty and as far as I know, no country
can join the EU if it adopts the death of penalty.


It's also not uncommon for them to do the work that
leads to the release of an innocent man from death row, usually in
cases in which an overzealous prosecutor took advantage of fabricated
evidence provided by law enforcement, coupled with circumstantial
evidence. That circumstantial evidence just happens to be lying around
everywhere, all the time, and could tie any one of us to a crime that
was committed while we were not in the presence of impeccable witnesses.

Hmmm... a liquor store was burglarized. Let's get the records out and
see who used the ATM at the bank down the street at about that time.
Oh, look, this guy's account was overdrawn. Look at that... he couldn't
get any money out of the machine, but he paid that past due electric
bill an hour before the power was to be cut off. Gee, pal, where'd ya
get the money? (Meanwhile, the burglar who was just passing through the
town is sipping Jack Daniel's as he drives on, fuel in the tank
courtesy of the liquor store's daily receipts -- he didn't use his
national ID card anywhere within the state in which the burglary took
place, so no one even knew he was there.)


One could also use a shotgun to knock the flies off of the windowsill
without having to get off of the sofa.


I am not sure that I understand what you mean there.
I'm opposed to this, and I've been doing e-commerce for years.


It seems pretty safe to me today.

It does not probably seem safe to most Europeans, otherwise
it would be difficult to explain why such a little percentage of consumers
in the EU buy online.

The occasional fraudulent card
transaction occurs, it's true, but that risk exists in the real world,
too. I've yet to have a retailer ask me to provide identification to go
along with my credit card during a card-present transaction. I've used
other people's cards (with their permission, of course) several times.

Could not the government trace people through their use of credit cards too?
I'm afraid I don't understand the question, but I'd probably do my best
to address it if I did. Care to rephrase it for my poor feeble mind?

What I wrote above about the use of softwares was a commentary referred to
what I read in this thread about the way Sun let people use Java.
Does Sun set limits for the use of java which are more severe than the ones
other companies set for the use of their own products?
 
L

Luigi Donatello Asero

Actually, I am against the use of death penalty.
How many States in the USA still use it?
In the EU we do not have any death penalty and as far as I know, no country
can join the EU if it adopts the death penalty.
 
A

Art Sackett

Luigi Donatello Asero said:
Actually, I am against the use of death penalty.
How many States in the USA still use it?

About that, I don't know. I know that our current resident of the White
House holds the record as the killingest state governor in history,
back when he was the governor of Texas.
I am not sure that I understand what you mean there.

I mean that it might be effective, but it would also be quite
dangerous.
It does not probably seem safe to most Europeans, otherwise
it would be difficult to explain why such a little percentage of consumers
in the EU buy online.

True enough -- but it's quite popular here in the US. I spent over $2k
online in October.
Could not the government trace people through their use of credit cards too?

It's common for credit card companies to volunteer that information to
law enforcement with no court order or even a good reason presented.
But no one is required to carry a credit card at all times, or to
present it upon demand. It's a voluntary act, whereas a national ID
card would be mandatory, and would be used to tie together the data
that is now fragmented in databases all over the country. With all of
that data in one place, a data entry error or a database corruption
could render one unable to travel via aircraft, ineligible to vote, or
even land one in jail.
Does Sun set limits for the use of java which are more severe than the ones
other companies set for the use of their own products?

Well, first we must understand that not all software is developed by
entities with the profit motive. For example, right here on my
workstation, I can think of only two non-free components: the JVM and
the Flash plugin for my browser. Everything else, up to and including
the operating system kernel, is mine to do with as I please, within
certain reasonable limits. I can not only view the source code, I can
modify it to my heart's content. I can sell it or give it away. I don't
have to ask anyone's permission to do any of these things, and I didn't
have to pay to get these rights. I didn't pay for any of this software,
so it's free in both the gratis sense, and the libre sense.

Did Sun give you the source code for their Java Virtual Machine? If you
got your hands on it, could you modify it or redistribute it without
even asking Sun's permission? The answer to all of these questions is a
resounding "NO!"

If you're curious about the operating system I'm using, pay a visit to
http://www.debian.org/ -- it's not the only Linux around, but it's what
I've been using since '96 and I'm quite happy with it. It's very, very
stable and reliable; a machine I remotely administer has delivered
100.00% uptime for just two weeks shy of four years. It kinda begs the
question, "Why pay for an operating system that's inferior to the free
ones?", I think. I could be wrong.
 
M

Mark Parnell

Previously in alt.html said:
If you're curious about the operating system I'm using, pay a visit to
http://www.debian.org/ -- it's not the only Linux around, but it's what
I've been using since '96 and I'm quite happy with it.

From what I've heard, Debian is quite difficult to install and configure
compared to other flavours of Linux.
It's very, very
stable and reliable;

That I have also heard.
 
M

Mitja

From what I've heard, Debian is quite difficult to install and configure
compared to other flavours of Linux.
So they say...
Debian was the first linux I installed, and at the time I had no idea what
kernel is at all, and ls, su and man were about the only proggies I knew.
And yet... it didn't seem such a big deal to me. Even more, when after
about a year I switched to RedHat, problems suddenly appeared: a slightly
different files layout (for which you can't really blame RH) and above all
the rpms (as opposed to debian's apt). Now I'm back to Debian, and happy
with it :)
 

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