Simple Question regarding running .py program

Discussion in 'Python' started by Caroline Hou, Nov 13, 2012.

  1. Caroline Hou

    Caroline Hou Guest

    Hi all!

    I just started learning Python by myself and I have an extremely simple question now!
    I am in my Python interpreter now and I want to open/edit a program called nobel.py. But when I typed >>> python nobel.py, it gave me a "SyntaxError:invalid syntax”( I've changed to the correct directory)what should I do?
    I also want to run the program, but as I double-clicked the program, a command window pops up and closes immediately. How can I see the result of the program run?
    Could anyone help me please? I am pretty confused here...Thank you!
     
    Caroline Hou, Nov 13, 2012
    #1
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  2. Caroline Hou

    Dave Angel Guest

    On 11/12/2012 09:02 PM, Caroline Hou wrote:
    > Hi all!
    >
    > I just started learning Python by myself and I have an extremely simple question now!
    > I am in my Python interpreter now and I want to open/edit a program called nobel.py. But when I typed >>> python nobel.py, it gave me a "SyntaxError:invalid syntax”( I've changed to the correct directory)what should I do?
    > I also want to run the program, but as I double-clicked the program, a command window pops up and closes immediately. How can I see the result of the program run?
    > Could anyone help me please? I am pretty confused here...Thank you!


    It'd be nice to specify that you're running Windows, and also what
    version of the interpreter, although in this case the latter doesn't matter.


    Go to a shell (cmd.exe), change to the directory containing that script,
    and type the command as you did.

    On linux: davea@think:~$ python nobel.py
    On Windows: c:\mydir\myscript > python nobel.py

    If you're already in the python interpreter, then running python is
    useless -- it's already running. In that case, you might want to use
    import. However, I recommend against it at first, as it opens up some
    other problems you haven't experience with yet.

    When you say you "double clicked the program', we have to guess you
    might have meant in MS Explorer. If you do that, it launches a cmd, it
    runs the python system, and it closes the cmd. Blame Windows for not
    reading your mind. If you want the cmd window to stick around, you
    COULD end your program with an raw_input function call, but frequently
    that won't work. The right answer is the first one above... Open a
    shell (perhaps with a menu like DOS BOX), change...

    That way, when the program finishes, you can see what happened, or
    didn't happen, and you can run it again using the uparrow key.

    BTW, you don't need to send email to both the python-list and to the
    newsgroup. The newsgroup is automatically fed from the list. But since
    you're posting from google groups, that's just one of the bugs. Many
    folks here simply filter out everything from google groups, so your post
    is invisible to them.


    --

    DaveA
     
    Dave Angel, Nov 13, 2012
    #2
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  3. Caroline Hou

    Caroline Hou Guest

    On Monday, 12 November 2012 21:25:08 UTC-5, Dave Angel wrote:
    > On 11/12/2012 09:02 PM, Caroline Hou wrote:
    >
    > > Hi all!

    >
    > >

    >
    > > I just started learning Python by myself and I have an extremely simplequestion now!

    >
    > > I am in my Python interpreter now and I want to open/edit a program called nobel.py. But when I typed >>> python nobel.py, it gave me a "SyntaxError:invalid syntax”( I've changed to the correct directory)what should I do?

    >
    > > I also want to run the program, but as I double-clicked the program, a command window pops up and closes immediately. How can I see the result of the program run?

    >
    > > Could anyone help me please? I am pretty confused here...Thank you!

    >
    >
    >
    > It'd be nice to specify that you're running Windows, and also what
    >
    > version of the interpreter, although in this case the latter doesn't matter.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Go to a shell (cmd.exe), change to the directory containing that script,
    >
    > and type the command as you did.
    >
    >
    >
    > On linux: davea@think:~$ python nobel.py
    >
    > On Windows: c:\mydir\myscript > python nobel.py
    >
    >
    >
    > If you're already in the python interpreter, then running python is
    >
    > useless -- it's already running. In that case, you might want to use
    >
    > import. However, I recommend against it at first, as it opens up some
    >
    > other problems you haven't experience with yet.
    >
    >
    >
    > When you say you "double clicked the program', we have to guess you
    >
    > might have meant in MS Explorer. If you do that, it launches a cmd, it
    >
    > runs the python system, and it closes the cmd. Blame Windows for not
    >
    > reading your mind. If you want the cmd window to stick around, you
    >
    > COULD end your program with an raw_input function call, but frequently
    >
    > that won't work. The right answer is the first one above... Open a
    >
    > shell (perhaps with a menu like DOS BOX), change...
    >
    >
    >
    > That way, when the program finishes, you can see what happened, or
    >
    > didn't happen, and you can run it again using the uparrow key.
    >
    >
    >
    > BTW, you don't need to send email to both the python-list and to the
    >
    > newsgroup. The newsgroup is automatically fed from the list. But since
    >
    > you're posting from google groups, that's just one of the bugs. Many
    >
    > folks here simply filter out everything from google groups, so your post
    >
    > is invisible to them.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    >
    >
    >
    > DaveA


    Hi Dave!

    thank you very much for your quick reply! I did manage to get the program run from cmd.exe.
    So does it mean that if I want to use python interactively,I should use theinterpreter,while if I just want to run a python program, I should use DOSshell instead?
    Also, how could I edit my script? I have sth called "IDLE" installed along with python. Is it the right place to write/edit my script?
    Sorry about these semi-idiot questions but it is really hard to find an article or book that covers such basic stuffs!
    Thank you!

    Caroline Hou
     
    Caroline Hou, Nov 13, 2012
    #3
  4. Caroline Hou

    Caroline Hou Guest

    On Monday, 12 November 2012 21:25:08 UTC-5, Dave Angel wrote:
    > On 11/12/2012 09:02 PM, Caroline Hou wrote:
    >
    > > Hi all!

    >
    > >

    >
    > > I just started learning Python by myself and I have an extremely simplequestion now!

    >
    > > I am in my Python interpreter now and I want to open/edit a program called nobel.py. But when I typed >>> python nobel.py, it gave me a "SyntaxError:invalid syntax”( I've changed to the correct directory)what should I do?

    >
    > > I also want to run the program, but as I double-clicked the program, a command window pops up and closes immediately. How can I see the result of the program run?

    >
    > > Could anyone help me please? I am pretty confused here...Thank you!

    >
    >
    >
    > It'd be nice to specify that you're running Windows, and also what
    >
    > version of the interpreter, although in this case the latter doesn't matter.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Go to a shell (cmd.exe), change to the directory containing that script,
    >
    > and type the command as you did.
    >
    >
    >
    > On linux: davea@think:~$ python nobel.py
    >
    > On Windows: c:\mydir\myscript > python nobel.py
    >
    >
    >
    > If you're already in the python interpreter, then running python is
    >
    > useless -- it's already running. In that case, you might want to use
    >
    > import. However, I recommend against it at first, as it opens up some
    >
    > other problems you haven't experience with yet.
    >
    >
    >
    > When you say you "double clicked the program', we have to guess you
    >
    > might have meant in MS Explorer. If you do that, it launches a cmd, it
    >
    > runs the python system, and it closes the cmd. Blame Windows for not
    >
    > reading your mind. If you want the cmd window to stick around, you
    >
    > COULD end your program with an raw_input function call, but frequently
    >
    > that won't work. The right answer is the first one above... Open a
    >
    > shell (perhaps with a menu like DOS BOX), change...
    >
    >
    >
    > That way, when the program finishes, you can see what happened, or
    >
    > didn't happen, and you can run it again using the uparrow key.
    >
    >
    >
    > BTW, you don't need to send email to both the python-list and to the
    >
    > newsgroup. The newsgroup is automatically fed from the list. But since
    >
    > you're posting from google groups, that's just one of the bugs. Many
    >
    > folks here simply filter out everything from google groups, so your post
    >
    > is invisible to them.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    >
    >
    >
    > DaveA


    Hi Dave!

    thank you very much for your quick reply! I did manage to get the program run from cmd.exe.
    So does it mean that if I want to use python interactively,I should use theinterpreter,while if I just want to run a python program, I should use DOSshell instead?
    Also, how could I edit my script? I have sth called "IDLE" installed along with python. Is it the right place to write/edit my script?
    Sorry about these semi-idiot questions but it is really hard to find an article or book that covers such basic stuffs!
    Thank you!

    Caroline Hou
     
    Caroline Hou, Nov 13, 2012
    #4
  5. Caroline Hou

    Terry Reedy Guest

    On 11/12/2012 9:45 PM, Caroline Hou wrote:

    > Also, how could I edit my script? I have sth called "IDLE" installed
    > along with python. Is it the right place to write/edit my script?


    IDLE is one way to edit; I use it. When you want to run, hit F5 and
    stdout and stderr output goes to the shell window.

    --
    Terry Jan Reedy
     
    Terry Reedy, Nov 13, 2012
    #5
  6. On Tuesday, 13 November 2012 08:15:45 UTC+5:30, Caroline Hou wrote:
    > On Monday, 12 November 2012 21:25:08 UTC-5, Dave Angel wrote:
    >
    > > On 11/12/2012 09:02 PM, Caroline Hou wrote:

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > Hi all!

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > I just started learning Python by myself and I have an extremely simple question now!

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > I am in my Python interpreter now and I want to open/edit a program called nobel.py. But when I typed >>> python nobel.py, it gave me a "SyntaxError:invalid syntax”( I've changed to the correct directory)what should Ido?

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > I also want to run the program, but as I double-clicked the program, a command window pops up and closes immediately. How can I see the result of the program run?

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > Could anyone help me please? I am pretty confused here...Thank you!

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > It'd be nice to specify that you're running Windows, and also what

    >
    > >

    >
    > > version of the interpreter, although in this case the latter doesn't matter.

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > Go to a shell (cmd.exe), change to the directory containing that script,

    >
    > >

    >
    > > and type the command as you did.

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > On linux: davea@think:~$ python nobel.py

    >
    > >

    >
    > > On Windows: c:\mydir\myscript > python nobel.py

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > If you're already in the python interpreter, then running python is

    >
    > >

    >
    > > useless -- it's already running. In that case, you might want to use

    >
    > >

    >
    > > import. However, I recommend against it at first, as it opens up some

    >
    > >

    >
    > > other problems you haven't experience with yet.

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > When you say you "double clicked the program', we have to guess you

    >
    > >

    >
    > > might have meant in MS Explorer. If you do that, it launches a cmd, it

    >
    > >

    >
    > > runs the python system, and it closes the cmd. Blame Windows for not

    >
    > >

    >
    > > reading your mind. If you want the cmd window to stick around, you

    >
    > >

    >
    > > COULD end your program with an raw_input function call, but frequently

    >
    > >

    >
    > > that won't work. The right answer is the first one above... Open a

    >
    > >

    >
    > > shell (perhaps with a menu like DOS BOX), change...

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > That way, when the program finishes, you can see what happened, or

    >
    > >

    >
    > > didn't happen, and you can run it again using the uparrow key.

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > BTW, you don't need to send email to both the python-list and to the

    >
    > >

    >
    > > newsgroup. The newsgroup is automatically fed from the list. But since

    >
    > >

    >
    > > you're posting from google groups, that's just one of the bugs. Many

    >
    > >

    >
    > > folks here simply filter out everything from google groups, so your post

    >
    > >

    >
    > > is invisible to them.

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > --

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > DaveA

    >
    >
    >
    > Hi Dave!
    >
    >
    >
    > thank you very much for your quick reply! I did manage to get the programrun from cmd.exe.
    >
    > So does it mean that if I want to use python interactively,I should use the interpreter,while if I just want to run a python program, I should use DOS shell instead?
    >
    > Also, how could I edit my script? I have sth called "IDLE" installed along with python. Is it the right place to write/edit my script?
    >
    > Sorry about these semi-idiot questions but it is really hard to find an article or book that covers such basic stuffs!
    >
    > Thank you!
    >
    >
    >
    > Caroline Hou


    IDLE is recommended for newbies like you because an IDE requires too much configuration.
    When you start writing a big project, you can use an IDE.
     
    Ramchandra Apte, Nov 13, 2012
    #6
  7. Caroline Hou

    Caroline Hou Guest

    On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 7:35:32 AM UTC-5, Ramchandra Apte wrote:
    > On Tuesday, 13 November 2012 08:15:45 UTC+5:30, Caroline Hou wrote:
    >
    > > On Monday, 12 November 2012 21:25:08 UTC-5, Dave Angel wrote:

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > On 11/12/2012 09:02 PM, Caroline Hou wrote:

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > > Hi all!

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > > I just started learning Python by myself and I have an extremely simple question now!

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > > I am in my Python interpreter now and I want to open/edit a programcalled nobel.py. But when I typed >>> python nobel.py, it gave me a "SyntaxError:invalid syntax”( I've changed to the correct directory)what shouldI do?

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > > I also want to run the program, but as I double-clicked the program, a command window pops up and closes immediately. How can I see the resultof the program run?

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > > Could anyone help me please? I am pretty confused here...Thank you!

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > It'd be nice to specify that you're running Windows, and also what

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > version of the interpreter, although in this case the latter doesn't matter.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > Go to a shell (cmd.exe), change to the directory containing that script,

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > and type the command as you did.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > On linux: davea@think:~$ python nobel.py

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > On Windows: c:\mydir\myscript > python nobel.py

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > If you're already in the python interpreter, then running python is

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > useless -- it's already running. In that case, you might want to use

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > import. However, I recommend against it at first, as it opens up some

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > other problems you haven't experience with yet.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > When you say you "double clicked the program', we have to guess you

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > might have meant in MS Explorer. If you do that, it launches a cmd, it

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > runs the python system, and it closes the cmd. Blame Windows for not

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > reading your mind. If you want the cmd window to stick around, you

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > COULD end your program with an raw_input function call, but frequently

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > that won't work. The right answer is the first one above... Open a

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > shell (perhaps with a menu like DOS BOX), change...

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > That way, when the program finishes, you can see what happened, or

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > didn't happen, and you can run it again using the uparrow key.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > BTW, you don't need to send email to both the python-list and to the

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > newsgroup. The newsgroup is automatically fed from the list. But since

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > you're posting from google groups, that's just one of the bugs. Many

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > folks here simply filter out everything from google groups, so your post

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > is invisible to them.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > --

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > > DaveA

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > Hi Dave!

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > thank you very much for your quick reply! I did manage to get the program run from cmd.exe.

    >
    > >

    >
    > > So does it mean that if I want to use python interactively,I should usethe interpreter,while if I just want to run a python program, I should useDOS shell instead?

    >
    > >

    >
    > > Also, how could I edit my script? I have sth called "IDLE" installed along with python. Is it the right place to write/edit my script?

    >
    > >

    >
    > > Sorry about these semi-idiot questions but it is really hard to find anarticle or book that covers such basic stuffs!

    >
    > >

    >
    > > Thank you!

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > >

    >
    > > Caroline Hou

    >
    >
    >
    > IDLE is recommended for newbies like you because an IDE requires too muchconfiguration.
    >
    > When you start writing a big project, you can use an IDE.


    Thank you Dave and everybody here for your helpful comments!This place is awesome! I found this group when I googled python-list. Seems like this is not the usual way you guys access the list?
     
    Caroline Hou, Nov 14, 2012
    #7
  8. On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 2:31 PM, Caroline Hou <> wrote:
    > Thank you Dave and everybody here for your helpful comments!This place is awesome! I found this group when I googled python-list. Seems like this is not the usual way you guys access the list?


    There are several ways to communicate with this list.

    * The comp.lang.python newsgroup - get a newsreader (there are plenty
    around), and either connect to your ISP's news server (if they have
    one that carries c.l.p) or to a public server, some of which cost
    money.
    * Use a news-to-web gateway such as Google Groups. That specific one
    is deprecated on this list, as there's more noise than signal from
    Google Groups.
    * The mailing list python-list, delivered directly to your inbox many
    times a day. This is what I personally use.

    Try here:
    http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

    ChrisA
     
    Chris Angelico, Nov 14, 2012
    #8
  9. Caroline Hou

    Guest

    On 11/13/2012 09:10 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 2:31 PM, Caroline Hou wrote:
    >> Thank you Dave and everybody here for your helpful comments!This
    >> place is awesome! I found this group when I googled python-list.
    >> Seems like this is not the usual way you guys access the list?

    >
    > There are several ways to communicate with this list.
    > [...]
    > * Use a news-to-web gateway such as Google Groups. That
    > specific one is deprecated on this list, as there's more
    > noise than signal from Google Groups.


    Caroline, Chris is mistaken about this, if for no other
    reason than there is no authority here empowered to decide
    to deprecate anything. What Chris should have said is
    that there are some people on this list who don't like
    Google Groups for whatever reason and encourage others
    to ignore posts from Google Groups.

    How successful this boycott effort is is not clear.

    I use Google Groups as it suits my needs better than
    any of the alternatives, and so do many others. Both
    of the other alternatives Chris mentioned involve too
    much setup or overhead for those who read/post here
    only occasionally. GG fills this niche adequately
    if used with care.

    If you do use Google Groups to post, there are a
    couple of things you should be careful of:

    * You'll sometimes see a checkbox above the GG send
    window that is a CC to the python mailing list
    (<>) which is checked by default.
    Uncheck that before sending, or the list will get
    two copies of your message.

    * GG doesn't do a very good job in quoting the post
    you are replying to. If you look at your recent
    post here:
    http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2012-November/635070.html
    (or on GG) you will see lots and lots of lines empty
    save for the ">" quote markers. This makes a post
    hard to read.

    A way to avoid this is to remove the blank extra blank
    lines in the GG send window by hand before posting.

    Alternatively, many email programs have a "paste as
    quotation" option when writing mail. What I do is
    to open a blank new email message, copy the original
    post I'm replying to from GG, paste-as-quotation into
    the new mail window, then copy and paste back into the
    GG send window. Pretty easy to do once you get used
    to it.

    Hope this helps and provides a little more accurate
    info about posting from GG than has been provided so
    far.
     
    , Nov 14, 2012
    #9
  10. On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 4:08 PM, <> wrote:
    > On 11/13/2012 09:10 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    >> * Use a news-to-web gateway such as Google Groups. That
    >> specific one is deprecated on this list, as there's more
    >> noise than signal from Google Groups.

    >
    > Caroline, Chris is mistaken about this, if for no other
    > reason than there is no authority here empowered to decide
    > to deprecate anything. What Chris should have said is
    > that there are some people on this list who don't like
    > Google Groups for whatever reason and encourage others
    > to ignore posts from Google Groups.
    >
    > How successful this boycott effort is is not clear.


    To be more accurate: This is deprecated *by members of* this list. As
    there is no commanding/controlling entity here, it's up to each
    individual to make a decision - for instance, abusive users get
    killfiled rather than banned. The use of Google Groups to post is
    deprecated in the original sense of the word: strongly disapproved of.

    My own opinion on the matter is that if it takes as much effort as you
    describe to use GG properly, it's wasting your time on a massive
    scale. Surely it's easier to read and post email?

    ChrisA
     
    Chris Angelico, Nov 14, 2012
    #10
  11. Caroline Hou

    Guest

    On 11/13/2012 11:02 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 4:08 PM, rurpy wrote:
    >> On 11/13/2012 09:10 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    >>> * Use a news-to-web gateway such as Google Groups. That
    >>> specific one is deprecated on this list, as there's more
    >>> noise than signal from Google Groups.

    >>
    >> Caroline, Chris is mistaken about this, if for no other
    >> reason than there is no authority here empowered to decide
    >> to deprecate anything. What Chris should have said is
    >> that there are some people on this list who don't like
    >> Google Groups for whatever reason and encourage others
    >> to ignore posts from Google Groups.
    >>
    >> How successful this boycott effort is is not clear.

    >
    > To be more accurate: This is deprecated *by members of* this list. As
    > there is no commanding/controlling entity here, it's up to each
    > individual to make a decision - for instance, abusive users get
    > killfiled rather than banned. The use of Google Groups to post is
    > deprecated in the original sense of the word: strongly disapproved of.


    s/deprecated *by members of*/deprecated *by some members of*/

    (and accuracy could probably be increased further by replacing
    "some" with "a few".)

    And again,

    s/strongly disapproved of/strongly disapproved of by some/

    I was objecting to your attempts to make it sound like a
    fact that GG posts were nearly universally condemned here,
    an error you repeat again above.

    > My own opinion on the matter is that if it takes as much effort as you
    > describe to use GG properly, it's wasting your time on a massive
    > scale. Surely it's easier to read and post email?


    "that much effort"? Do you consider a couple of copy-
    pastes to be "that much effort"? "wasting your time
    on a massive scale"? Sheesh, get a grip man, let's not
    get silly.

    On the other hand finding and configuring a newsreader
    for someone whose never done it before, as you recommend,
    is a major time consumer. And signing up for python-list
    email, posting, dealing with several days' volume, and
    then signing off because one does not want to read it
    full time[*], is no picnic either compared to using GG.

    Sorry, but there are *good* reasons for some people
    to use GG whether you want to admit it or not.

    ==
    [*] Actually, now that I think about it, IIRC one can sign
    up for python-list email, and go into the mailman settings
    and disable mail delivery, allowing one to post to the list
    via email yet read the list via GG, Gmane or whatever.
    However, this is not going to be obvious to many occasional
    posters, and is still a PITA compared to just posting from
    GG as our hypothetical user does for all the other groups
    he/she participates in.
     
    , Nov 14, 2012
    #11
  12. Caroline Hou

    rusi Guest

    On Nov 14, 12:02 pm, wrote:
    >
    > ==
    > [*] Actually, now that I think about it, IIRC one can sign
    > up for python-list email, and go into the mailman settings
    > and disable mail delivery, allowing one to post to the list
    > via email yet read the list via GG, Gmane or whatever.
    > However, this is not going to be obvious to many occasional
    > posters, and is still a PITA compared to just posting from
    > GG as our hypothetical user does for all the other groups
    > he/she participates in.


    Yes this would be (for me) my most preferred option if I could figure
    out a way of threading into a preexisting thread.
     
    rusi, Nov 14, 2012
    #12
  13. On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 6:02 PM, <> wrote:
    > On 11/13/2012 11:02 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    >> To be more accurate: This is deprecated *by members of* this list. As
    >> there is no commanding/controlling entity here, it's up to each
    >> individual to make a decision - for instance, abusive users get
    >> killfiled rather than banned. The use of Google Groups to post is
    >> deprecated in the original sense of the word: strongly disapproved of.

    >
    > s/deprecated *by members of*/deprecated *by some members of*/
    >
    > (and accuracy could probably be increased further by replacing
    > "some" with "a few".)


    I stand by what I said. Members, plural, of this list. I didn't say
    "all members of", ergo the word "some" is superfluous, yet not
    needful, as Princess Ida put it.

    In any case, the fact remains that a number of this list's best
    responders have killfiled Google Groups posters as a whole.
    Consequently, GG forces you to go to quite a bit of extra work AND
    prevents your message from getting through to everyone. Why go to
    extra work to get a worse result? I am therefore not going to
    recommend Google Groups to anyone as a means of posting to
    python-list/c.l.p, any more than I would recommend writing it on a
    Post-It note and feeding it into your floppy drive.

    ChrisA
     
    Chris Angelico, Nov 14, 2012
    #13
  14. Caroline Hou

    Guest

    On 11/14/2012 06:35 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 6:02 PM, rurpy wrote:
    >> On 11/13/2012 11:02 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    >>> To be more accurate: This is deprecated *by members of* this list. As
    >>> there is no commanding/controlling entity here, it's up to each
    >>> individual to make a decision - for instance, abusive users get
    >>> killfiled rather than banned. The use of Google Groups to post is
    >>> deprecated in the original sense of the word: strongly disapproved of.

    >>
    >> s/deprecated *by members of*/deprecated *by some members of*/
    >>
    >> (and accuracy could probably be increased further by replacing
    >> "some" with "a few".)

    >
    > I stand by what I said. Members, plural, of this list. I didn't say
    > "all members of", ergo the word "some" is superfluous, yet not
    > needful, as Princess Ida put it.


    Then you would have no problem I suppose with "Australians
    are racists" because some Australians are racist and I
    didn't say "all"?

    I stand by what I said. Using the passive voice to
    give a false sense of authority, leaving out quantifiers
    when there are likely thousands of readers of this group
    perhaps a half dozen who've been vocal against GG, is
    not an accurate description.

    > In any case, the fact remains that a number of this list's best
    > responders have killfiled Google Groups posters as a whole.
    > Consequently, GG forces you to go to quite a bit of extra work AND
    > prevents your message from getting through to everyone. Why go to
    > extra work to get a worse result?


    As a user of GG, Usenet and email lists I claim you
    are wrong. GG does NOT require "quite a bit of extra
    work". If it did, I wouldn't use it. For occasional
    posters, GG is EASIER. (It would be even easier if
    Google would fix their execrable quoting behaviour
    but as I showed, it is easy to work around that.)
    I think you are ignoring setup time and a number
    of other secondary factors, things that are very
    significant to occasional posters, in your evaluation
    of "easy".

    As for "best", that is clearly a matter of opinion.
    The very fact that someone would killfile an entire
    class of poster based on a some others' posts reeks
    of intolerance and group-think. And since some of the
    anti-GG proponents are also among the most opinionated
    and argumentative participants here, their not reading
    GG posts could be seen as an advantage.

    As an aside, I've noticed that some those most vocal
    against GG have also been very vocal about this group
    being inclusive.

    If one observes that women post here (as a group)
    a lot less frequently then men, and if GG is easier
    for occasional posters, then the anti-GG attitude
    expressed here by a few would have the effect of
    disproportionately discriminating against women.

    > I am therefore not going to
    > recommend Google Groups to anyone as a means of posting to
    > python-list/c.l.p,


    That's fine. But when doing so please leave out the
    false metaphors...

    > any more than I would recommend writing it on a
    > Post-It note and feeding it into your floppy drive.


    ....such as posting here via GG is similar to feeding
    post-its into a floppy drive.
     
    , Nov 14, 2012
    #14
  15. On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 10:20:13 -0800, rurpy wrote:

    > On 11/14/2012 06:35 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:

    [...]
    >> I stand by what I said. Members, plural, of this list. I didn't say
    >> "all members of", ergo the word "some" is superfluous, yet not needful,
    >> as Princess Ida put it.

    >
    > Then you would have no problem I suppose with "Australians are racists"
    > because some Australians are racist and I didn't say "all"?


    Speaking as an Australian, I wouldn't have a problem with that, because
    Australians *are* racist. To the degree that we can talk about a
    "national character", the national character of Australia is racist, even
    if many Aussies aren't, and many more try not to be.

    In any case, your example is provocative. Here's a less provocative
    version:

    [paraphrase]
    Then you would have no problem I suppose with "People have two legs"
    because some people have two legs and I didn't say "all"?
    [end paraphrase]



    > As a user of GG, Usenet and email lists I claim you are wrong. GG does
    > NOT require "quite a bit of extra work". If it did, I wouldn't use it.
    > For occasional posters, GG is EASIER. (It would be even easier if
    > Google would fix their execrable quoting behaviour but as I showed, it
    > is easy to work around that.) I think you are ignoring setup time and a
    > number of other secondary factors, things that are very significant to
    > occasional posters, in your evaluation of "easy".


    I don't understand why you suggest counting setup time for the
    alternatives to Google Groups, but *don't* consider setup time for Google
    Groups. You had to create a Google Account didn't you? You've either put
    in your mobile phone number -- and screw those who don't have one -- or
    you get badgered every time you sign in. You do sign in don't you?

    For *really* occasional posters, they might not even remember their
    Google account details from one post to the next. So they have to either
    create a new account, or go through the process of recreating it. Why do
    you ignore these factors in *your* evaluation of "easy"?

    We all do it -- when we talk about "easy" or "difficult", we have an
    idealised generalised user in mind. Your idealised user is different from
    Chris' idealised user. You are both generalising. And that's *my*
    generalisation.

    Even if you are right that Google Groups is easier for some users, in my
    opinion it is easy in the same way as the Dark Side of the Force.
    Quicker, faster, more seductive, but ultimately destructive.


    > As for "best", that is clearly a matter of opinion. The very fact that
    > someone would killfile an entire class of poster based on a some others'
    > posts reeks of intolerance and group-think.


    Intolerance? Yes. But group-think? You believe that people are merely
    copying the group's prejudice against Google Groups. I don't think they
    are. I think that the dislike against GG is group consensus based on the
    evidence of our own eyes, not a mere prejudice. The use of Google Groups
    is, as far as I can tell, the single most effective predictor of badly
    written, badly thought out, badly formatted posts, and a common source of
    spam.

    As for intolerance, you say that like it is that a bad thing. Why should
    people have to tolerate bad behaviour? Google Groups *encourages* bad
    behaviour. Should we tolerate spam because any spam filter might
    occasionally throw away a legitimate mail? Should we tolerate acid
    attacks on women because occasionally there might be some woman who
    actually deserves such a horrible fate? I don't think so. For many
    things, intolerance is a *good* thing, and many people here believe that
    intolerance for Google Groups is one of those cases.

    You of course are free to make whatever arrangements to filter spam and
    use Google Groups as you like, but you equally must respect other
    people's right to control their own inbox by filtering away GG posters.

    [...]
    > As an aside, I've noticed that some those most vocal against GG have
    > also been very vocal about this group being inclusive.


    I call bullshit. If you are going to accuse people of being "very vocal"
    against minorities, you damn well better have some evidence to back up
    your claim.

    And if you don't, I would expect a public apology for that slur.



    --
    Steven
     
    Steven D'Aprano, Nov 14, 2012
    #15
  16. Caroline Hou

    Guest

    On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 4:07:53 PM UTC-7, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    > On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 10:20:13 -0800, rurpy wrote:
    > [...]
    > > As an aside, I've noticed that some those most vocal against GG have
    > > also been very vocal about this group being inclusive.

    >
    > I call bullshit. If you are going to accuse people of being "very vocal"
    > against minorities, you damn well better have some evidence to back up
    > your claim.
    >
    > And if you don't, I would expect a public apology for that slur.


    I wasn't very clear. I should have written "...those most vocal
    against GG have also been very vocal *in favor* of this group being
    inclusive."

    In the next paragraph which you clipped I pointed out
    the irony of that attitude versus one possible effect of
    advocating the blacklisting of GG posters:

    > > If one observes that women post here (as a group)
    > > a lot less frequently then men, and if GG is easier
    > > for occasional posters, then the anti-GG attitude
    > > expressed here by a few would have the effect of
    > > disproportionately discriminating against women.


    Response to your other points will need to wait until
    I have more time.
     
    , Nov 14, 2012
    #16
  17. On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 23:07:53 +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

    > On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 10:20:13 -0800, rurpy wrote:

    [...]
    > [...]
    >> As an aside, I've noticed that some those most vocal against GG have
    >> also been very vocal about this group being inclusive.

    >
    > I call bullshit. If you are going to accuse people of being "very vocal"
    > against minorities, you damn well better have some evidence to back up
    > your claim.
    >
    > And if you don't, I would expect a public apology for that slur.


    Ah, apparently I misread Rurpy's comment. I'm sorry, I was completely
    wrong to accuse Rurpy of accusing others of being opposed to including
    minorites in this group.

    My apologies Rurpy, I don't know how I made that misreading.


    --
    Steven
     
    Steven D'Aprano, Nov 15, 2012
    #17
  18. Caroline Hou

    Terry Reedy Guest

    On 11/13/2012 11:10 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
    > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 2:31 PM, Caroline Hou <> wrote:
    >> Thank you Dave and everybody here for your helpful comments!This place is awesome! I found this group when I googled python-list. Seems like this is not the usual way you guys access the list?

    >
    > There are several ways to communicate with this list.
    >
    > * The comp.lang.python newsgroup - get a newsreader (there are plenty
    > around), and either connect to your ISP's news server (if they have
    > one that carries c.l.p) or to a public server, some of which cost
    > money.
    > * Use a news-to-web gateway such as Google Groups. That specific one
    > is deprecated on this list, as there's more noise than signal from
    > Google Groups.
    > * The mailing list python-list, delivered directly to your inbox many
    > times a day. This is what I personally use.


    news.gmane.org group gmane.comp.python.general
    many 'mail' programs such as Outlook Express or Thunderbird also handle news

    --
    Terry Jan Reedy
     
    Terry Reedy, Nov 15, 2012
    #18
  19. Caroline Hou

    Terry Reedy Guest

    On 11/14/2012 2:02 AM, wrote:

    > On the other hand finding and configuring a newsreader
    > for someone whose never done it before, as you recommend,
    > is a major time consumer.


    Use a mail/news program such as Thunderbird and the newsreader comes for
    free. Setting up a gmane account with Thunderbird was, as I remember
    rather easy, easier than setting up a mail account.

    --
    Terry Jan Reedy
     
    Terry Reedy, Nov 15, 2012
    #19
  20. Caroline Hou

    Guest

    On 11/14/2012 04:07 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
    > On Wed, 14 Nov 2012 10:20:13 -0800, rurpy wrote:


    I'll skip the issues already addressed by Joshua Landau.

    >[...]
    > I don't understand why you suggest counting setup time for the
    > alternatives to Google Groups, but *don't* consider setup time for Google
    > Groups. You had to create a Google Account didn't you? You've either put
    > in your mobile phone number -- and screw those who don't have one -- or
    > you get badgered every time you sign in. You do sign in don't you?


    Yes I sign in. And I've never entered my mobile phone
    number and no I don't get badgered every time (I've not
    been asked when I logged in several times today and I
    just tried again to confirm.) I have been asked in the
    past and just ignore it -- click Save (or whatever the
    button is) with a blank text box.

    As was pointed out, a large number of people already
    have Google accounts. And creating an account at
    Google is not comparable to researching news readers,
    downloading and installing software, setting up an
    account, etc for someone who's never even heard of
    usenet before. Subscribing to email is easier but
    it has its own problems (all those email you don't
    care about, the time delay (I've had to wait over 24
    hours for a response for some email lists), what to
    do when you're traveling, reading some groups via
    email but others by GG. I've also had problems
    trying to post through Gmane and then there were
    Gmane's accessibly problems a few months ago, fixed
    now but for how long?

    The OP had already found her way to GG and managed
    to post. So the incremental cost for her to *continue*
    using GG is very low. That's in comparision to
    *changing* to a new posting method.

    I'm not saying the Google is always easier than an
    alternative but for a significant number of people
    it is. But most importantly it is *their* place to
    say what is easier for them, not yours or mine.

    [...]
    > Even if you are right that Google Groups is easier for some users, in my
    > opinion it is easy in the same way as the Dark Side of the Force.
    > Quicker, faster, more seductive, but ultimately destructive.


    Well, that's the best example of FUD I've seen in this
    thread so far. Congratulations. ;-)

    >> As for "best", that is clearly a matter of opinion. The very fact that
    >> someone would killfile an entire class of poster based on a some others'
    >> posts reeks of intolerance and group-think.

    >
    > Intolerance? Yes. But group-think? You believe that people are merely
    > copying the group's prejudice against Google Groups.


    Please don't tell me what I believe, especially when
    you get it wrong.

    > I don't think they
    > are. I think that the dislike against GG is group consensus based on the
    > evidence of our own eyes, not a mere prejudice. The use of Google Groups
    > is, as far as I can tell, the single most effective predictor of badly
    > written, badly thought out, badly formatted posts, and a common source of
    > spam.


    Again you repeat Chris Angelo's mistake (if it's a
    mistake). "group's prejudice"? You've presented
    no evidence that "the group" as a whole or in large
    part (including many people who seldom if ever post)
    share your view. Same with "consensus". A consensus
    of whom? Are you saying there is a consensus among
    those who dislike GG posts that they dislike GG posts?

    You say the dislike is "not a mere prejudice" and yet
    I can't help but wonder where the hard evidence is.
    I've not seen it posted though I could have easily
    missed it.

    All the news/email tools I use make it a little work
    to see where a post came from -- usually they'll be a
    button somewhere or a menu item to show the headers
    and one will scan those for the source. While easy
    enough it is still (at least for me) much easier to
    simply skip a post based on the subject/poster or
    a quick peak at the contents.

    So I've never had any inclination to look and have no
    idea how many crap posts come from GG. Yet you claim
    that a large percentage of this group has made the
    effort to do that. (Or maybe there is an easier way
    to check?)

    However I can easily imagine how some could think
    they are checking...

    "Oh man, what a crap post! Let's check the headers.
    Yup, just as I thought, Google Groups."

    But of course, our genius doesn't keep any records
    and the cases where he is wrong don't make as much
    impression on his memory. Further, he doesn't bother
    to check the headers on the non-crap posts. Even a
    junior-high science student could see the problems
    with this methodology.

    And how many people actually do even that? Some may
    find it an offensive suggestion but there is such a
    thing as group psychology and there are people who
    follow leaders. (I suspect those people are all of
    "us" at least some of the time.) Further people tend
    to be convinced even more easily when they think
    "everybody knows it". So when a few of the more
    prolific and respected posters here start talking
    about "the consensus is...", "deprecated on this list"
    and make statements like "GG is irredeemably broken"
    there are people who will accept that info at the
    posters' word.

    And when someone challenges the anti-GG claim, the
    issue get polarized and choosing one side or the
    other (still without much reliable evidence) becomes
    an action of support.

    Finally there is a significant amount of anti-Google
    sentiment in the world and it can difficult to tell
    if someone's motivation is purely against obnoxious
    posts or is also motivated in part by a desire to
    oppose Google. You yourself I think have publicly
    criticized Google and even advocated using an alternate
    search engine, yes? That kind of political decision
    is something each person should decide for themself
    and should not be subject to external pressure, at
    least not here.

    So your claim that everyone rejecting GG posts is
    doing so based solely on their own personal experience
    is not convincing to me.

    Now none of that proves that GG posts *aren't* largely
    crap. But I do object to hyping up the claim.

    And I still question the need to killfile GG posts
    based on:
    * My experience that it is not hard to ignore or quickly
    skip over crap posts and neither are they very numerous
    so killfiling does not provide much incremental benefit.
    * Killfiling is detrimental in that it loses the non-
    crap posts as well. (The OP of this thread is one
    example and I recall another example a week or two
    ago as well.)
    * My belief that is wrong on some deep level to reject
    people based on statistics for a group they belong to,
    especially on a list that makes a big point of being
    inclusive.

    >[...]
    > You of course are free to make whatever arrangements to filter spam and
    > use Google Groups as you like, but you equally must respect other
    > people's right to control their own inbox by filtering away GG posters.


    Right. And I've never said anything contrary. I am
    not promoting GG and am happy to see helpful suggestions
    on how to access this group by other means.

    My responses in this and other threads have pretty much
    been limited to correcting bad or very biased information
    and while I'm at it, expressing my opinion that killfiling
    based on a source (and one as widely used as GG) is not
    a good way to address the problem as expanded on above.
     
    , Nov 15, 2012
    #20
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