[Slightly OT] 'Quirks mode' wail of despair

Discussion in 'XML' started by Simon Brooke, Mar 22, 2007.

  1. Simon Brooke

    Simon Brooke Guest

    There is no need to respond to this post. There is, in fact, no possible
    helpful response to this post. I just needed to tear my hair in public...

    I have a site I wrote for a customer four years ago. Recently, the customer
    upgraded their browser (probably on an automatic upgrade) to Internet
    Explorer 7, and phoned me up to say the site was broken. The site
    is 'broken', because IE 7 loses a band about 1em high across the top of
    the page; it spaces everything correctly, but this band is just white. So
    I checked the site; it's all generated as XHTML 1.0 Transitional, although
    given the markup I'm using it could equally have been declared to be 1.0
    Strict.

    Standards-compliant browsers - Firefox, Konqi, Safari, Opera - render the
    site just fine. Internet Explorer 6 rendered the site just fine. OK, I
    thought, what's changed here? Is it %&$£$*$ 'quirks mode'? I deleted the
    DTD declaration from a page, and, surprise, it rendered perfectly.

    IE6, it appears, renders a page with an XML declaration and XHTML 1.0
    Transitional doctype using 'quirks mode'. IE7 renders it using something
    delightfully called 'Almost Standards Mode' (See
    <URL:http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/>). And my page design is obviously
    triggering one of the 'almost' bits...

    I do not want to return to the tag-soup era. I want to do things properly.
    But my customers want their site to look the way they want it to look, and
    that's reasonable because an increasing numbers of their customers will be
    using IE7. So I have either to spend a long time sorting out how exactly
    to write a standards-conformant page which looks the same on a
    standards-compliant browser as the present page does, but which also looks
    the same on IE7; or else I can just take the doctype out of the
    templates...

    It CANNOT be beyond the wit of the world's largest and richest software
    company to build something that does this right, surely!


    --
    (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    [ This .sig subject to change without notice ]
    Simon Brooke, Mar 22, 2007
    #1
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  2. Simon Brooke wrote:
    > It CANNOT be beyond the wit of the world's largest and richest software
    > company to build something that does this right, surely!


    As far as I can tell, MS believes that IE does everything right and the
    other ("standards-compliant") implementations are wrong.

    --
    Joe Kesselman / Beware the fury of a patient man. -- John Dryden
    Joseph Kesselman, Mar 22, 2007
    #2
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  3. Simon Brooke wrote:

    > Standards-compliant browsers - Firefox, Konqi, Safari, Opera - render the
    > site just fine. Internet Explorer 6 rendered the site just fine. OK, I
    > thought, what's changed here? Is it %&$£$*$ 'quirks mode'? I deleted the
    > DTD declaration from a page, and, surprise, it rendered perfectly.
    >
    > IE6, it appears, renders a page with an XML declaration and XHTML 1.0
    > Transitional doctype using 'quirks mode'. IE7 renders it using something
    > delightfully called 'Almost Standards Mode' (See
    > <URL:http://hsivonen.iki.fi/doctype/>). And my page design is obviously
    > triggering one of the 'almost' bits...


    I think the doctype sniffer in IE 7 is still rather easy to fool, try
    both an XML declaration and a comment before the DOCTYPE and IE 7 might
    render in quirks mode as you say IE 6 does for that site.


    --

    Martin Honnen
    http://JavaScript.FAQTs.com/
    Martin Honnen, Mar 22, 2007
    #3
  4. Simon Brooke

    Simon Brooke Guest

    in message <46029dc0$1@kcnews01>, Joseph Kesselman
    ('') wrote:

    > Simon Brooke wrote:
    >> It CANNOT be beyond the wit of the world's largest and richest software
    >> company to build something that does this right, surely!

    >
    > As far as I can tell, MS believes that IE does everything right and the
    > other ("standards-compliant") implementations are wrong.


    You'd think so, but in fact they don't even claim that:

    "As for IE’s CSS compliance, I’d love to have a honest, straightforward,
    unbiased statement of exactly where we (and other browsers) are – despite
    the fact that I know we would be behind today.[1]"

    The IE7 teams priorities were, apparently, "...security, end user
    experience, and standards improvements..." in that order [op cit]; also
    here:

    "...our top priority is (and will likely always be) security – not just
    mechanical “fix buffer overruns†type stuff, but innovative stuff like the
    anti-phishing work and low-rights IE. For IE7 in particular, our next
    major priority is removing the biggest causes of difficulty for web
    developers.[2]"

    So no, they don't think their implementation is right, but they think it
    isn't an important priority.

    [1] <URL:http://blogs.msdn.com/cwilso/archive/2006/08/10/694584.aspx>
    [2] <URL:http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/07/29/445242.aspx>

    --
    (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; Good grief, I can remember when England won the Ashes.
    Simon Brooke, Mar 23, 2007
    #4
  5. Simon Brooke schrieb:
    > The IE7 teams priorities were, apparently, "...security, end user
    > experience, and standards improvements..." in that order [op cit];


    If web developers used only standards-compliant code without any hacks
    for IE, the user experience with IE would often be pretty bad :)

    --
    Johannes Koch
    In te domine speravi; non confundar in aeternum.
    (Te Deum, 4th cent.)
    Johannes Koch, Mar 23, 2007
    #5
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