Snakes and Rubies?

Discussion in 'Ruby' started by James Britt, Nov 17, 2005.

  1. James Britt

    James Britt Guest

    This may be of interest, especially if you live in or near the Windy City=
    James Britt, Nov 17, 2005
    #1
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  2. James Britt wrote:
    > This may be of interest, especially if you live in or near the Windy Ci=

    ty.
    >=20
    > http://snakesandrubies.com/event
    >=20
    > quote:
    > On December 3rd, Ruby and Python developers will gather at DePaul=20
    > University in Chicago to hear two of the leaders in the Web 2.0 movemen=

    t=20
    > debate the merits of each other=92s frameworks. Adrian Holovaty, the=20
    > creator of the Django framework for Python, and David Heinemeier=20
    > Hansson, the creator of Ruby on Rails framework will answer questions=20
    > about their work and the future of Web application development.
    >=20
    > Hand picked questions submitted below will be selected by a moderator=20
    > and presented to Adrian and David at the meeting.
    >=20
    > :etouq
    >=20
    >=20
    > James


    I think it's time to start making the "My web framework can beat up your =
    web=20
    framework" t-shirts.

    Dan
    Daniel Berger, Nov 17, 2005
    #2
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  3. James Britt

    John W. Long Guest

    > I think it's time to start making the "My web framework can beat up
    > your web framework" t-shirts.


    Hopefully not. How about "the future is not Java" t-shirts. We would=20
    like this to be a bi-partisan event. :)

    --
    John

    Daniel Berger wrote:
    > James Britt wrote:
    >=20
    >> This may be of interest, especially if you live in or near the Windy=20
    >> City.
    >>
    >> http://snakesandrubies.com/event
    >>
    >> quote:
    >> On December 3rd, Ruby and Python developers will gather at DePaul=20
    >> University in Chicago to hear two of the leaders in the Web 2.0=20
    >> movement debate the merits of each other=92s frameworks. Adrian=20
    >> Holovaty, the creator of the Django framework for Python, and David=20
    >> Heinemeier Hansson, the creator of Ruby on Rails framework will answer=

    =20
    >> questions about their work and the future of Web application developme=

    nt.
    >>
    >> Hand picked questions submitted below will be selected by a moderator=20
    >> and presented to Adrian and David at the meeting.
    >>
    >> :etouq
    >>
    >>
    >> James

    >=20
    >=20
    > I think it's time to start making the "My web framework can beat up you=

    r=20
    > web framework" t-shirts.
    >=20
    > Dan
    >=20
    >=20
    >=20
    >=20
    >=20
    John W. Long, Nov 18, 2005
    #3
  4. Daniel Berger wrote:
    > James Britt wrote:
    >> This may be of interest, especially if you live in or near the Windy
    >> City.
    >>
    >> http://snakesandrubies.com/event
    >>
    >> quote:
    >> On December 3rd, Ruby and Python developers will gather at DePaul
    >> University in Chicago to hear two of the leaders in the Web 2.0
    >> movement debate the merits of each other’s frameworks. Adrian
    >> Holovaty, the creator of the Django framework for Python, and David
    >> Heinemeier
    >> Hansson, the creator of Ruby on Rails framework will answer questions
    >> about their work and the future of Web application development.
    >>
    >> Hand picked questions submitted below will be selected by a moderator
    >> and presented to Adrian and David at the meeting.
    >>
    >>> etouq

    >>
    >>
    >> James

    >
    > I think it's time to start making the "My web framework can beat up
    > your web framework" t-shirts.


    <soapbox>Sometimes I get the impression that people are more busy
    *creating* web frameworks than actually *using* them. One blink of the
    eye and ten new web frameworks sprang into existence...</soapbox>

    robert
    Robert Klemme, Nov 18, 2005
    #4
  5. Robert Klemme <> wrote:
    >
    > <soapbox>Sometimes I get the impression that people are more busy
    > *creating* web frameworks than actually *using* them. One blink of the
    > eye and ten new web frameworks sprang into existence...</soapbox>


    Maybe the web frameworks can use the dependency injection frameworks

    martin

    (well, someone has to!)
    Martin DeMello, Nov 18, 2005
    #5
  6. Robert Klemme wrote:
    > <soapbox>Sometimes I get the impression that people are more busy
    > *creating* web frameworks than actually *using* them. One blink of the
    > eye and ten new web frameworks sprang into existence...</soapbox>


    Actually, Django was extracted from Real-World Web sites two years ago
    (lawrence.com, ljworld.com, et al). In its development, it's
    consistently been designed to solve immediate real-world problems.

    That's what makes it so good. It's intensely focused on getting things
    done.

    Adrian
    (Django developer)

    --
    Adrian Holovaty
    holovaty.com | djangoproject.com | chicagocrime.org
    Adrian Holovaty, Nov 18, 2005
    #6
  7. James Britt

    James Britt Guest

    Adrian Holovaty wrote:
    > Robert Klemme wrote:
    >
    >><soapbox>Sometimes I get the impression that people are more busy
    >>*creating* web frameworks than actually *using* them. One blink of the
    >>eye and ten new web frameworks sprang into existence...</soapbox>

    >
    >
    > Actually, Django was extracted from Real-World Web sites two years ago
    > (lawrence.com, ljworld.com, et al). In its development, it's
    > consistently been designed to solve immediate real-world problems.



    Same goes for Nitro, I believe.

    Yes, people often create alternative tools simply as an academic
    exercise, but many folks have good, clear reasons why available choices
    are inadequate and need to build their own. And it's great that they are
    made available, and that people can then pick a tool best suited for them.



    James

    --

    http://www.ruby-doc.org - Ruby Help & Documentation
    http://www.artima.com/rubycs/ - Ruby Code & Style: Writers wanted
    http://www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
    http://www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
    http://www.30secondrule.com - Building Better Tools
    James Britt, Nov 18, 2005
    #7
  8. Martin DeMello <> writes:

    > Robert Klemme <> wrote:
    > >
    > > <soapbox>Sometimes I get the impression that people are more busy
    > > *creating* web frameworks than actually *using* them. One blink of the
    > > eye and ten new web frameworks sprang into existence...</soapbox>

    >
    > Maybe the web frameworks can use the dependency injection frameworks


    This is happening in big ways in Java land, right now (WebWork is
    using Spring, Hibernate is using Hivemind...)

    --
    I tend to view "truly flexible" by another term: "Make everything
    equally hard". -- DHH
    Michael Campbell, Nov 18, 2005
    #8
  9. James Britt

    J. Merrill Guest

    james_b wrote:
    > Adrian Holovaty wrote:
    > Yes, people often create alternative tools simply as an academic
    > exercise, but many folks have good, clear reasons why available choices
    > are inadequate and need to build their own. And it's great that they are
    > made available, and that people can then pick a tool best suited for
    > them.


    Who's writing the hopefully-unbiased "how to choose a (Ruby | Python |
    Java | .Net) web framework" document (wiki?), with a description of the
    guiding principles, ease of getting started, licensing cost,
    documentation quality and availability, (perceived) advantages and
    disadvantages, extensibility info (without modifying source), speed of
    development and deployment, speed of resulting site, etc etc?

    I've seen a .Net-based system that has well over 1mb of source code,
    most of which is generated automatically; the framework being used (by a
    consulting firm) seems quite capable but very much non-trivial to grok
    and not quick to build with etc. I'm not sure that Rails would achieve
    the "less total source than the XML config used by other frameworks"
    goal, but it sure would be smaller.

    Ideally, someone would come up with an allegedly-typical site design and
    encourage people who like the respective frameworks to provide their
    sample implementations. The databases that sit behind might well be
    different (e.g. a Rails developer might use the "table with multiple
    related classes" notion but other frameworks would likely use multiple
    tables for the same thing). Of course, that could give an advantage to
    some particular framework -- maybe the "sample site" from each
    framework's equivalent of the "Ruby on Rails" book could be implemented
    using other frameworks. Or maybe the site I've watched get built with
    that .Net framework could be built by the various open-source
    frameworks...

    (Would anyone pay to subscribe to an "Open Source [or not!] web
    frameworks comparison" living document / site? Something has to bring
    in the $$$...)

    --
    Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
    J. Merrill, Nov 18, 2005
    #9
  10. James Britt

    Kirk Haines Guest

    On Friday 18 November 2005 8:02 am, James Britt wrote:
    > Adrian Holovaty wrote:
    > > Robert Klemme wrote:
    > >><soapbox>Sometimes I get the impression that people are more busy
    > >>*creating* web frameworks than actually *using* them. One blink of the
    > >>eye and ten new web frameworks sprang into existence...</soapbox>

    > >
    > > Actually, Django was extracted from Real-World Web sites two years ago
    > > (lawrence.com, ljworld.com, et al). In its development, it's
    > > consistently been designed to solve immediate real-world problems.

    >
    > Same goes for Nitro, I believe.


    Each of Rails, Nitro, and IOWA are definitely used in real world applications,
    and at least with Rails and IOWA, the development is driven largely by the
    practical needs. I'm less in touch with Nitro's development process, but was
    told the other day that there are a number of production applications and 10
    or so active users. Certainly not a large crowd, but definitely enough to
    provide a good feedback cycle to shape the framework's practical development.

    The same goes for IOWA. I have around 60 of sites and/or applications in
    production with it myself, and have a similarly small but active group of
    users providing me with regular feedback and ideas for areas that need
    focused attention and development.

    Some of this work, at least for Ruby, in the past, may have been theoretical,
    and I know that at least part of the incentive behind Wee was simply to
    explore other ways to do things, but now there are actual users behind Wee,
    too, each of these frameworks continues to exist and be used because they
    offer a practical solution to real world problems that people are faced with,
    and in turn those real world problems help drive their continued development.


    Kirk Haines
    Kirk Haines, Nov 18, 2005
    #10
  11. Michael Campbell <> writes:

    > Martin DeMello <> writes:
    >
    > > Robert Klemme <> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > <soapbox>Sometimes I get the impression that people are more busy
    > > > *creating* web frameworks than actually *using* them. One blink of the
    > > > eye and ten new web frameworks sprang into existence...</soapbox>

    > >
    > > Maybe the web frameworks can use the dependency injection frameworks

    >
    > This is happening in big ways in Java land, right now (WebWork is
    > using Spring, Hibernate is using Hivemind...)


    Great googly moogly, I meant TAPESTRY is using Hivemind! (Apologies
    for replying to self...)

    --
    I tend to view "truly flexible" by another term: "Make everything
    equally hard". -- DHH
    Michael Campbell, Nov 18, 2005
    #11
  12. > practical needs. I'm less in touch with Nitro's development process, but=
    was
    > told the other day that there are a number of production applications and=

    10
    > or so active users. Certainly not a large crowd, but definitely enough t=

    o
    > provide a good feedback cycle to shape the framework's practical developm=

    ent.

    Many ideas for Nitro were extracted while working on a number of
    ruby-powered websites over the last 3 years. One of these sites,
    joy.gr is quite probably one of the biggest real world Ruby
    applications:

    ~ 20.000.0000 page views / month
    ~ 4.000 new registered users / month
    ~ 200.000 unique visitors (IPs) / month
    ~ 1000-3000 concurrent online users

    Running from a single, old server, using an old, unoptimized ruby
    powered web engine. All this before the first version of Rails was
    even released.

    We have experienced many problems from our old engine, and during the
    last 3 years we have had the chance to carefully study the practical
    issues and work out effective solutions. The fruit of our efforts is
    Nitro. Restarted from scratch about one year ago, influenced by Rails
    and other projects (Wee, CherryPy, etc..) it now provides everything
    you need to build professional Web applications in the most natural
    way.


    regards,
    George.


    --
    http://www.gmosx.com
    http://www.navel.gr
    http://www.nitrohq.com
    George Moschovitis, Nov 19, 2005
    #12
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