So many things that need to be decided....

Discussion in 'Python' started by Heather Stovold, May 3, 2005.

  1. Wow - deciding to program in python sure requires a lot of decisions!

    So far:

    I've decided on python for the programming language.
    I've decided on wxpython for the GUI....
    I've decided on DrPython for the Editor....

    I still need to decide on a database........ I've really only used Access,
    and my SQL skills aren't that great. It would also need to be free....
    Any suggestions??

    Am I going to need a program/package for a report writer? or that might
    depend on the database I use?

    I've never had to make so many decisions to program in my life, because I've
    generally only had a couple of options, or those options were decided by
    other people.

    I really appreciate the help this newsgroup has provided - both for my
    previous post - and for the reading of other posts I've done. I'm sure
    I'll have a million more questions soon!

    Thanks for the help!

    Heather
     
    Heather Stovold, May 3, 2005
    #1
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  2. Heather Stovold

    Peter Hansen Guest

    Heather Stovold wrote:
    > Wow - deciding to program in python sure requires a lot of decisions!
    >
    > So far:
    >
    > I've decided on python for the programming language.
    > I've decided on wxpython for the GUI....
    > I've decided on DrPython for the Editor....
    >
    > I still need to decide on a database........ I've really only used Access,
    > and my SQL skills aren't that great. It would also need to be free....


    > Any suggestions??


    Yes, provide background on your actual requirements so we aren't just
    pulling suggestions out of our asps (this being a Python-related but
    family-oriented newsgroup, that seemed more appropriate than the
    alternative). What kind of app are you building, what kind of structure
    will your database and app have, performance requirements, etc...

    (You might have already mentioned something in your other posting, but I
    didn't read/don't recall it and I'm sure many other potential
    respondents are in the same boat.)

    Also, a suggestion from the world of "agile development": stop making so
    many decisions and start writing some actual code! :) That way you'll
    gain confidence in the choices you have made, and will rapidly find
    where you went wrong (as you'll inevitably decide you have about some
    things), rather than waiting till you've chosen all the perfect
    components and run out of time to get anything done. (This advice from
    the voice of experience, me having been where you are 20 years ago, and
    15, and ten years ago, and five years ago...)

    -Peter
     
    Peter Hansen, May 3, 2005
    #2
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  3. Heather Stovold

    Mike Meyer Guest

    "Heather Stovold" <> writes:

    > Wow - deciding to program in python sure requires a lot of decisions!


    It wasn't for me.

    > So far:
    >
    > I've decided on python for the programming language.
    > I've decided on wxpython for the GUI....


    Hmm. I started writing CGI apps, so I didn't need to choose a
    GUI - at least not until later. I finally settled on PyQT, though I've
    used TkInter as well.

    > I've decided on DrPython for the Editor....


    An editor for each language? Is that the kind of tower you get when
    you start using IDEs? I just kept right on using the same text editor
    I'd been using for the last 20 (now 30) years.

    > I still need to decide on a database........ I've really only used Access,
    > and my SQL skills aren't that great. It would also need to be free....
    > Any suggestions??


    Access is just a way of talking to a database. Which is what most
    Python database tools are - ways to talk to a back-end database. If
    you're going to be writing fairly traditional applications, this is
    probably overkill. Doing web back ends, I needed to deal with
    simultaneous access, so had to go this route. I chose PostGreSQL, but
    I've worked with MySQL as well.

    You might be better off with something that doesn't require a separate
    server. Gadfly appears to qualify. There are probably other packages
    that give you a DB-API or SQL interace to an internal database that
    will serve your purpose.

    I've worked with the berkeley db modules, which provides a way of
    storing arbitrary chunks of memory on disk, using arbitrary chunks of
    memory as a key. That may well be enough. The shelve module is the
    easy way to use this.

    > Am I going to need a program/package for a report writer? or that might
    > depend on the database I use?


    That won't depend on the database. It will depend on what you want
    your applications to do when it comes to generating reports - assuming
    you generate any at all.

    <mike
    --
    Mike Meyer <> http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
    Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.
     
    Mike Meyer, May 3, 2005
    #3
  4. Heather Stovold

    Maurice LING Guest

    Hi,

    It seems that you are just starting on Python, same as my situation a
    year ago. After almost going down the same route as you do, I tell
    myself.... just start on something. You can decide on everything but by
    the time you've decided, everything changes again.

    Initially, I started on Java then came to Python. Ok, now you've decided
    on Python, GUI library and Editor isn't an issue. Despite all the
    negativities with PyDev with Eclipse, I am still using it.

    I really don't see why you should lay everything in stone before you
    start. Things may or may not fall into place. Worry about it when it
    worries you.

    "do not distress yourself with imaginings" -desiderata

    Good luck.

    Cheers
    maurice

    Heather Stovold wrote:
    > Wow - deciding to program in python sure requires a lot of decisions!
    >
    > So far:
    >
    > I've decided on python for the programming language.
    > I've decided on wxpython for the GUI....
    > I've decided on DrPython for the Editor....
    >
    > I still need to decide on a database........ I've really only used Access,
    > and my SQL skills aren't that great. It would also need to be free....
    > Any suggestions??
    >
    > Am I going to need a program/package for a report writer? or that might
    > depend on the database I use?
    >
    > I've never had to make so many decisions to program in my life, because I've
    > generally only had a couple of options, or those options were decided by
    > other people.
    >
    > I really appreciate the help this newsgroup has provided - both for my
    > previous post - and for the reading of other posts I've done. I'm sure
    > I'll have a million more questions soon!
    >
    > Thanks for the help!
    >
    > Heather
    >
    >
    >
    >
     
    Maurice LING, May 3, 2005
    #4
  5. Heather Stovold

    Steve Holden Guest

    Heather Stovold wrote:
    > Wow - deciding to program in python sure requires a lot of decisions!
    >
    > So far:
    >
    > I've decided on python for the programming language.
    > I've decided on wxpython for the GUI....
    > I've decided on DrPython for the Editor....
    >
    > I still need to decide on a database........ I've really only used Access,
    > and my SQL skills aren't that great. It would also need to be free....
    > Any suggestions??
    >

    I'd try sqlite, since you can just install the python extension module
    (which brings its own copy of the Windows DLL with it - since you
    mention Access I assume you are no stranger to Windows].

    > Am I going to need a program/package for a report writer? or that might
    > depend on the database I use?
    >

    Generally speaking it would probably be a good idea to make sure that
    none of your other software technologies depend too heavily on one
    specific database, though this is generic advice which you can ignore to
    meet other project goals like "easily portable".

    > I've never had to make so many decisions to program in my life, because I've
    > generally only had a couple of options, or those options were decided by
    > other people.
    >
    > I really appreciate the help this newsgroup has provided - both for my
    > previous post - and for the reading of other posts I've done. I'm sure
    > I'll have a million more questions soon!
    >

    As Radio Shack are fond of saying, "You've got questions, we've got
    answers". Make sure you pass them on. And take Peter Hansen's advice to
    get elbow-deep in code.

    regards
    Steve
    --
    Steve Holden +1 703 861 4237 +1 800 494 3119
    Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
    Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/
     
    Steve Holden, May 3, 2005
    #5
  6. Heather Stovold

    Ivan Voras Guest

    Heather Stovold wrote:

    > I still need to decide on a database........ I've really only used Access,
    > and my SQL skills aren't that great. It would also need to be free....


    As many others have suggested, if you're comming from Access, SQLite or
    Gadfly would probably be good starting points, because

    - they both store data as files in the filesystem (as Access does), so
    you don't have to maintain a database server
    - they are easy to setup and use, there's lots of documentation on them.

    My personal suggestion would be to go with SQLite because it's a
    standard database which can be used with large number of other tools and
    languages.

    Keep in mind that such simple database systems have limits. Mostly,
    you'll encounter performance problems if you have multiple users writing
    data to the database at the same time (so if you're into web
    applications or business systems, use something more powerful, like
    PostgreSQL or Firebird).

    As for report generating features, I don't know of any free report
    generators that are as easy to use like the one in Access (e.g.
    point-and-click). Same goes for GUI tools.
     
    Ivan Voras, May 3, 2005
    #6

  7. > > I've decided on DrPython for the Editor....

    >
    > An editor for each language? Is that the kind of tower you get when
    > you start using IDEs? I just kept right on using the same text editor
    > I'd been using for the last 20 (now 30) years.


    I have programmed in the past with a plain text editor too did it for
    years. - but I much prefer programming with tools that have syntax coloring,
    code completion, and the ability to run from the editor. Debugging tools are
    a bonus too.


    >
    > > I still need to decide on a database........ I've really only used

    Access,
    > > and my SQL skills aren't that great. It would also need to be free....
    > > Any suggestions??

    >
    > Access is just a way of talking to a database. Which is what most
    > Python database tools are - ways to talk to a back-end database. If


    MS Access is also a file-based relational-database program in Windows, which
    you can access the database files either through the program, or the
    database directly through other tools - including most MS programming
    languages.

    > You might be better off with something that doesn't require a separate
    > server. Gadfly appears to qualify. There are probably other packages
    > that give you a DB-API or SQL interace to an internal database that
    > will serve your purpose.


    At this point, it would be the best to not require a seperate server. There
    will be only 1 or a handful of people accessing the database at once.

    > That won't depend on the database. It will depend on what you want
    > your applications to do when it comes to generating reports - assuming
    > you generate any at all.


    Some reports are a definate requirement.


    Thank you

    Heather
     
    Heather Stovold, May 3, 2005
    #7
  8. > I really don't see why you should lay everything in stone before you
    > start. Things may or may not fall into place. Worry about it when it
    > worries you.
    >


    Well, my program is going to require all these things. Information required
    to even build the screen is being stored in the database. (That is,
    information about the program is going to be in a database, not just the
    user data) - so I need to determine the database. It is a GUI program - so
    I need some sort of ability to program a GUI interface, etc....

    Thanks
     
    Heather Stovold, May 3, 2005
    #8
  9. > My personal suggestion would be to go with SQLite because it's a
    > standard database which can be used with large number of other tools and
    > languages.
    >
    > As for report generating features, I don't know of any free report
    > generators that are as easy to use like the one in Access (e.g.
    > point-and-click). Same goes for GUI tools.



    Thank you - I'll check them out!
     
    Heather Stovold, May 3, 2005
    #9
  10. Heather Stovold

    Mage Guest

    Heather Stovold wrote:

    >
    >I have programmed in the past with a plain text editor too did it for
    >years. - but I much prefer programming with tools that have syntax coloring,
    >code completion, and the ability to run from the editor. Debugging tools are
    >a bonus too.
    >
    >

    My opinion is that the GUI is for those who like the mouse. Since I play
    many games I am included.

    After tried some python editors I found Eclipse is mine. I have to tell
    that I really don't like it, even it's "you must create a project in
    every simple case" feature annoyes me. However I didn't find any other
    editor which is able to do all of these:

    - identing with tabs
    - showing tabs as 2 spaces
    - indicating if I use 2 spaces instead of a single tab (bad habit of
    mine from pascal-php times)
    - running the scripts
    - easy switching between source files
    - regular expression replacing
    - nice look and good design

    It should be able to show tabs with some different colors than spaces
    but it isn't. However other editors fail one or more of these above.
    Eclipse also supports subversion, but I use the command line svn client.

    Mage
     
    Mage, May 3, 2005
    #10
  11. Hi

    I see everybody talking about Eclipse and PyDev i have not used it but
    just wanted to know how does it compares with Activestate Komodo?

    thanks

    Anand

    Maurice LING wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > It seems that you are just starting on Python, same as my situation a
    > year ago. After almost going down the same route as you do, I tell
    > myself.... just start on something. You can decide on everything but by
    > the time you've decided, everything changes again.
    >
    > Initially, I started on Java then came to Python. Ok, now you've decided
    > on Python, GUI library and Editor isn't an issue. Despite all the
    > negativities with PyDev with Eclipse, I am still using it.
    >
    > I really don't see why you should lay everything in stone before you
    > start. Things may or may not fall into place. Worry about it when it
    > worries you.
    >
    > "do not distress yourself with imaginings" -desiderata
    >
    > Good luck.
    >
    > Cheers
    > maurice
    >
    > Heather Stovold wrote:
    >
    >>Wow - deciding to program in python sure requires a lot of decisions!
    >>
    >>So far:
    >>
    >>I've decided on python for the programming language.
    >>I've decided on wxpython for the GUI....
    >>I've decided on DrPython for the Editor....
    >>
    >>I still need to decide on a database........ I've really only used Access,
    >>and my SQL skills aren't that great. It would also need to be free....
    >>Any suggestions??
    >>
    >>Am I going to need a program/package for a report writer? or that might
    >>depend on the database I use?
    >>
    >>I've never had to make so many decisions to program in my life, because I've
    >>generally only had a couple of options, or those options were decided by
    >>other people.
    >>
    >>I really appreciate the help this newsgroup has provided - both for my
    >>previous post - and for the reading of other posts I've done. I'm sure
    >>I'll have a million more questions soon!
    >>
    >>Thanks for the help!
    >>
    >>Heather
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
     
    Anand S Bisen, May 3, 2005
    #11
  12. Heather Stovold

    Mike Meyer Guest

    "Heather Stovold" <> writes:

    >> > I've decided on DrPython for the Editor....

    >>
    >> An editor for each language? Is that the kind of tower you get when
    >> you start using IDEs? I just kept right on using the same text editor
    >> I'd been using for the last 20 (now 30) years.

    > I have programmed in the past with a plain text editor too did it for
    > years. - but I much prefer programming with tools that have syntax coloring,
    > code completion, and the ability to run from the editor. Debugging tools are
    > a bonus too.


    I've got syntax coloring. I'm not sure what you mean "run from the
    editor". I can send functions/classes to an interpreter running in the
    editor. I can run programs either via the editor command to run
    programs, or from a shell running in the editor. I have no idea
    whether or not the editor will do code completion. The only
    autocompletion facilities I use while editing (as opposed to issuing
    commands or looking for help) is looking up things in my email address
    book.


    >> > I still need to decide on a database........ I've really only used

    > Access,
    >> > and my SQL skills aren't that great. It would also need to be free....
    >> > Any suggestions??

    >> Access is just a way of talking to a database. Which is what most
    >> Python database tools are - ways to talk to a back-end database. If

    > MS Access is also a file-based relational-database program in Windows, which
    > you can access the database files either through the program, or the
    > database directly through other tools - including most MS programming
    > languages.


    IIRC - and I may not - access uses the "Jet" (name may be obsolete)
    database engine for it's file-based relational database access.

    >> That won't depend on the database. It will depend on what you want
    >> your applications to do when it comes to generating reports - assuming
    >> you generate any at all.

    > Some reports are a definate requirement.


    How will they be displayed? If you want to print them, it will depend
    on the platform. If you want to display them in a window, it'll depend
    on the GUI toolkit.

    <mike
    --
    Mike Meyer <> http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
    Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.
     
    Mike Meyer, May 3, 2005
    #12
  13. On Tue, 03 May 2005 11:25:23 -0500, Mike Meyer <> declaimed
    the following in comp.lang.python:

    >
    > IIRC - and I may not - access uses the "Jet" (name may be obsolete)
    > database engine for it's file-based relational database access.
    >

    Access is just a fancy GUI database & report designer whose
    native database support is the same JET engine that came with Visual
    Basic. The more recent versions of Access also included "Access
    Projects" which use MSDE/SQL Server as the back-end, just storing the
    report logic in the .mdb file.

    --
    > ============================================================== <
    > | Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG <
    > | Bestiaria Support Staff <
    > ============================================================== <
    > Home Page: <http://www.dm.net/~wulfraed/> <
    > Overflow Page: <http://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/> <
     
    Dennis Lee Bieber, May 4, 2005
    #13
  14. Heather Stovold

    Nick Vargish Guest

    Mage <> writes:

    > - identing with tabs


    Indenting with tabs is pretty much frowned upon in Python, as Guido
    relates in PEP 8:

    http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0008.html

    I guess it doesn't matter much if you are the only person who will
    ever touch your code, and you never, ever, accidentally mix spaces and
    tabs...

    Nick

    --
    # sigmask (lambda deprecation version) 20041028 || feed this to a python
    print ''.join([chr(ord(x)-1) for x in 'Ojdl!Wbshjti!=ojdlAwbshjti/psh?'])
     
    Nick Vargish, May 5, 2005
    #14
  15. Heather Stovold

    Mike Meyer Guest

    Nick Vargish <> writes:

    > Mage <> writes:
    >
    >> - identing with tabs

    >
    > Indenting with tabs is pretty much frowned upon in Python, as Guido
    > relates in PEP 8:
    >
    > http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0008.html
    >
    > I guess it doesn't matter much if you are the only person who will
    > ever touch your code, and you never, ever, accidentally mix spaces and
    > tabs...


    What the OP probably meant was that the development environment
    inserts the appropriate number of spaces when you hit the tab key. I'd
    hate to work on Python - or in any group development environment -
    where that wasn't the case.

    <mike
    --
    Mike Meyer <> http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
    Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.
     
    Mike Meyer, May 6, 2005
    #15
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