Solid line - need to start 15px in

Discussion in 'HTML' started by tshad, May 18, 2005.

  1. tshad

    tshad Guest

    I have the following style that puts a solid line on the top of the cell.

    style="border-right-width: 1; border-top-width: 1; border-bottom-width: 1;
    border-top-style:solid"

    The text is actually 15px in from the cells left border:

    <p style="margin-left: 15px">

    Is there a way to have the line start 15px in also?

    It's not a big deal, it just kind of hangs over the edge and it would be
    nice to have it line up with the text.

    Thanks,

    Tom
     
    tshad, May 18, 2005
    #1
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  2. tshad

    Sid Ismail Guest

    On Wed, 18 May 2005 19:15:33 GMT, "tshad"
    <> wrote:

    : I have the following style that puts a solid line on the top of the cell.
    :
    : style="border-right-width: 1; border-top-width: 1; border-bottom-width: 1;
    : border-top-style:solid"
    :
    : The text is actually 15px in from the cells left border:
    :
    : <p style="margin-left: 15px">
    :
    : Is there a way to have the line start 15px in also?
    :
    : It's not a big deal, it just kind of hangs over the edge and it would be
    : nice to have it line up with the text.


    Hi

    1. style="border-right-width: 1; qualify the "1" px, em, ?

    2. seems you want a margin then - that is easy to do.

    Post a URL - much easier to understand your exact problem.

    Sid
     
    Sid Ismail, May 18, 2005
    #2
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  3. tshad

    tshad Guest

    "Sid Ismail" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Wed, 18 May 2005 19:15:33 GMT, "tshad"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > : I have the following style that puts a solid line on the top of the
    > cell.
    > :
    > : style="border-right-width: 1; border-top-width: 1; border-bottom-width:
    > 1;
    > : border-top-style:solid"
    > :
    > : The text is actually 15px in from the cells left border:
    > :
    > : <p style="margin-left: 15px">
    > :
    > : Is there a way to have the line start 15px in also?
    > :
    > : It's not a big deal, it just kind of hangs over the edge and it would be
    > : nice to have it line up with the text.
    >
    >
    > Hi
    >
    > 1. style="border-right-width: 1; qualify the "1" px, em, ?
    >
    > 2. seems you want a margin then - that is easy to do.
    >
    > Post a URL - much easier to understand your exact problem.


    Ok,

    http://www.payrollworkshop.com/Samples/testborder.htm

    I wanted the line to be 15px in just like the text.

    Also, the cells top and bottom space in Mozilla are real large. Why not in
    IE?

    Tom
    >
    > Sid
    >
    >
     
    tshad, May 18, 2005
    #3
  4. tshad

    Noozer Guest

    "tshad" <> wrote in message
    news:pvMie.576$...
    > I have the following style that puts a solid line on the top of the cell.
    >
    > style="border-right-width: 1; border-top-width: 1; border-bottom-width: 1;
    > border-top-style:solid"
    >
    > The text is actually 15px in from the cells left border:
    >
    > <p style="margin-left: 15px">
    >
    > Is there a way to have the line start 15px in also?
    >
    > It's not a big deal, it just kind of hangs over the edge and it would be
    > nice to have it line up with the text.


    style = "border:none; border-top: solid 1px black;margin:15px;padding 0;"

    ???

    Of course IE and Mozilla treat padding and margins differently. Also the
    above is from memory so may not work at all.
     
    Noozer, May 18, 2005
    #4
  5. tshad

    tshad Guest

    "Noozer" <> wrote in message
    news:yZNie.1407477$Xk.687780@pd7tw3no...
    >
    > "tshad" <> wrote in message
    > news:pvMie.576$...
    >> I have the following style that puts a solid line on the top of the cell.
    >>
    >> style="border-right-width: 1; border-top-width: 1; border-bottom-width:
    >> 1;
    >> border-top-style:solid"
    >>
    >> The text is actually 15px in from the cells left border:
    >>
    >> <p style="margin-left: 15px">
    >>
    >> Is there a way to have the line start 15px in also?
    >>
    >> It's not a big deal, it just kind of hangs over the edge and it would be
    >> nice to have it line up with the text.

    >
    > style = "border:none; border-top: solid 1px black;margin:15px;padding 0;"
    >
    > ???
    >
    > Of course IE and Mozilla treat padding and margins differently. Also the
    > above is from memory so may not work at all.


    It didn't - in either browser.

    Thanks,

    Tom
     
    tshad, May 18, 2005
    #5
  6. tshad

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Previously in alt.html, tshad <> said:

    > I have the following style that puts a solid line on the top of the cell.

    <snip>
    > <p style="margin-left: 15px">
    >
    > Is there a way to have the line start 15px in also?


    Put the border on the paragraph instead of the table cell.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    alt.html FAQ :: http://html-faq.com/
     
    Mark Parnell, May 18, 2005
    #6
  7. tshad

    tshad Guest

    "Mark Parnell" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:...
    > Previously in alt.html, tshad <> said:
    >
    >> I have the following style that puts a solid line on the top of the cell.

    > <snip>
    >> <p style="margin-left: 15px">
    >>
    >> Is there a way to have the line start 15px in also?

    >
    > Put the border on the paragraph instead of the table cell.


    That worked great.

    It also shows the where the extra space is coming from. Apparently,
    Mozilla is putting space between the paragraph border and the cell border.
    IE doesn't.

    Why is that?

    Thanks,

    Tom
    >
    > --
    > Mark Parnell
    > http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    > alt.html FAQ :: http://html-faq.com/
    >
     
    tshad, May 19, 2005
    #7
  8. tshad

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Previously in alt.html, tshad <> said:

    > It also shows the where the extra space is coming from. Apparently,
    > Mozilla is putting space between the paragraph border and the cell border.
    > IE doesn't.


    Mozilla has a default margin-top and margin-bottom of 1em on paragraphs.
    Apparently IE doesn't (at least, not in table cells).

    Because different browsers have different defaults for margin and
    padding (none are wrong, they are just different), I generally recommend
    setting all margins and padding to 0: * {margin: 0; padding: 0;} - then
    set it on individual elements as required.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    alt.html FAQ :: http://html-faq.com/
     
    Mark Parnell, May 19, 2005
    #8
  9. tshad

    tshad Guest

    "Mark Parnell" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Previously in alt.html, tshad <> said:
    >
    >> It also shows the where the extra space is coming from. Apparently,
    >> Mozilla is putting space between the paragraph border and the cell
    >> border.
    >> IE doesn't.

    >
    > Mozilla has a default margin-top and margin-bottom of 1em on paragraphs.
    > Apparently IE doesn't (at least, not in table cells).
    >
    > Because different browsers have different defaults for margin and
    > padding (none are wrong, they are just different), I generally recommend
    > setting all margins and padding to 0: * {margin: 0; padding: 0;} - then
    > set it on individual elements as required.


    I tried it. I put it on the <table>, the <td> and the <p> and it still has
    the extra space around the words in Mozilla - as you can see in the example.

    <table width="200" style="padding:0;margins:0;" border="1" cellspacing="0"
    cellpadding="0">
    <tr>
    <td style=" padding:0;margins:0;width:100px;border-right-width: 1px;
    border-top-width:5px; border-bottom-width: 1px; border-top-style:solid; ">
    <p style="padding:0;margins:0;margin-left:15px;
    border-top-style:solid;border-top-width:5px;
    border-bottom-style:solid;border-bottom-width:5px">test line

    Tom
    >
    > --
    > Mark Parnell
    > http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    > alt.html FAQ :: http://html-faq.com/
     
    tshad, May 19, 2005
    #9
  10. tshad

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Mark Parnell, May 19, 2005
    #10
  11. tshad

    tshad Guest

    "Mark Parnell" <> wrote in message
    news:1uwlnnu0xfy7x$.15kkrm0755ziq$...
    > Previously in alt.html, tshad <> said:
    >
    >> <p style="padding:0;margins:0;

    >
    > It's margin, not margins. Good reason to validate. :)


    You're right. As a matter a fact DW put a warning there and I didn't see
    it.

    Works much better now, as you can see.

    I do disagree with you on one issue:

    > Because different browsers have different defaults for margin and
    > padding (none are wrong, they are just different), I generally recommend
    > setting all margins and padding to 0: * {margin: 0; padding: 0;} - then
    > set it on individual elements as required.


    I think it is wrong. This is the kind of thing that makes it more difficult
    that it has to be. This is why there are standards. I would think that
    defaults should be standard or what is the point in having them. That means
    you cannot use them, as we just demonstrated. This would have looked
    completely different in Mozilla had I used paragraphs all over the place and
    used the defaults. If I used IE and spend days putting together a nice page
    and then tested it on Mozilla, I would be spending a ton of time trying to
    find out what was different on Mozilla. This isn't the only thing. And
    with the next release I'm sure there would be other things.

    Thanks,

    Tom
    >
    > --
    > Mark Parnell
    > http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    > alt.html FAQ :: http://html-faq.com/
     
    tshad, May 19, 2005
    #11
  12. tshad

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Previously in alt.html, tshad <> said:
    > "Mark Parnell" <> wrote in message
    > news:1uwlnnu0xfy7x$.15kkrm0755ziq$...


    >> Because different browsers have different defaults for margin and
    >> padding (none are wrong, they are just different), I generally recommend
    >> setting all margins and padding to 0: * {margin: 0; padding: 0;} - then
    >> set it on individual elements as required.

    >
    > I think it is wrong. This is the kind of thing that makes it more difficult
    > that it has to be.


    I'm assuming you're disagreeing with my comment about them not being
    wrong, rather than my suggestion how to overcome those differences.

    > This is why there are standards. I would think that
    > defaults should be standard or what is the point in having them.


    The specifications do define default values for some properties, but
    only ones that apply globally - not how they apply to specific elements,
    because CSS and HTML are completely separate. And CSS doesn't have to be
    used with HTML - in theory it could be used with any markup language. In
    the case of margin/padding, it would be unrealistic to set a default
    value, as it would look stupid if every element had the same margin and
    padding.

    > That means
    > you cannot use them, as we just demonstrated.


    You can, you just need to be aware of the issues involved. It really
    isn't that much more work to set up a default stylesheet with the
    margins and padding you want on each element. Use that as your base for
    each site you do, and you only have to set it up once.

    > If I used IE and spend days putting together a nice page
    > and then tested it on Mozilla, I would be spending a ton of time trying to
    > find out what was different on Mozilla.


    Do that the other way around and you'll be much better off anyway. :)

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    alt.html FAQ :: http://html-faq.com/
     
    Mark Parnell, May 19, 2005
    #12
  13. tshad

    tshad Guest

    "Mark Parnell" <> wrote in message
    news:17uy9dtyimex8$.128ktu857w32s$...
    > Previously in alt.html, tshad <> said:
    >> "Mark Parnell" <> wrote in message
    >> news:1uwlnnu0xfy7x$.15kkrm0755ziq$...

    >
    >>> Because different browsers have different defaults for margin and
    >>> padding (none are wrong, they are just different), I generally recommend
    >>> setting all margins and padding to 0: * {margin: 0; padding: 0;} - then
    >>> set it on individual elements as required.

    >>
    >> I think it is wrong. This is the kind of thing that makes it more
    >> difficult
    >> that it has to be.

    >
    > I'm assuming you're disagreeing with my comment about them not being
    > wrong, rather than my suggestion how to overcome those differences.


    Yes.

    We always have to find a way to overcome their differences.
    >
    >> This is why there are standards. I would think that
    >> defaults should be standard or what is the point in having them.

    >
    > The specifications do define default values for some properties, but
    > only ones that apply globally - not how they apply to specific elements,
    > because CSS and HTML are completely separate. And CSS doesn't have to be
    > used with HTML - in theory it could be used with any markup language. In
    > the case of margin/padding, it would be unrealistic to set a default
    > value, as it would look stupid if every element had the same margin and
    > padding.
    >


    I don't agree there.

    As you said, IE and Mozilla have different defaults. The problem is not
    whether you set defaults for different objects the same or not. But if
    there are defaults, they must be the same from browser to browser or they
    are worthless (in other words never use defaults, ever).

    This problem was a good example.

    Obviously, IE has a different default (as you say) then Mozilla. There is
    no reason that the default shouldn't be the same for both browsers. As you
    say, set the margins and padding to 0. So you are saying what I just said.
    The defaults are worthless. If you can't depend on them, you can't use
    them.

    My problem is with the Browser manufacturers. They must know what the
    others are doing, so why do they do it differently. NIH.

    >> That means
    >> you cannot use them, as we just demonstrated.

    >
    > You can, you just need to be aware of the issues involved. It really
    > isn't that much more work to set up a default stylesheet with the
    > margins and padding you want on each element. Use that as your base for
    > each site you do, and you only have to set it up once.


    As I said, you can't unless you don't care that one browser will show it
    differently than the next one.

    I agree you can set up your own defaults. My statement was that you can't
    use the browsers default.

    >
    >> If I used IE and spend days putting together a nice page
    >> and then tested it on Mozilla, I would be spending a ton of time trying
    >> to
    >> find out what was different on Mozilla.

    >
    > Do that the other way around and you'll be much better off anyway. :)


    Not the case. I do use Mozilla for my main testing. Then I find that IE
    doesn't handle it the same and I need to go in and figure out what is
    causing the differences and find a way to deal with the problem. Something
    the Doctype has to be changed, other times it's something else.

    Tom
    >
    > --
    > Mark Parnell
    > http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    > alt.html FAQ :: http://html-faq.com/
     
    tshad, May 19, 2005
    #13
  14. tshad

    Toby Inkster Guest

    tshad wrote:

    > Obviously, IE has a different default (as you say) then Mozilla. There is
    > no reason that the default shouldn't be the same for both browsers.


    Different defaults is a Good Thing.

    IE, for example, has a default background colour for the BODY element of
    white. In Netscape 4.x and below, the default is #999 (grey). In Dillo,
    it's #D6D6C0 (greyish brown).

    Default background colour is just another feature that browsers can and
    should compete over.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, May 20, 2005
    #14
  15. tshad

    tshad Guest

    "Toby Inkster" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > tshad wrote:
    >
    >> Obviously, IE has a different default (as you say) then Mozilla. There
    >> is
    >> no reason that the default shouldn't be the same for both browsers.

    >
    > Different defaults is a Good Thing.
    >
    > IE, for example, has a default background colour for the BODY element of
    > white. In Netscape 4.x and below, the default is #999 (grey). In Dillo,
    > it's #D6D6C0 (greyish brown).
    >
    > Default background colour is just another feature that browsers can and
    > should compete over.


    And why is that a good thing???

    If I have elements that are close a grey, because it looks good in IE, then
    it may be washed out in Netscape.

    I think there are things you should be able to depend on, and if defaults
    can be anything - then they are useless as defaults.

    IMHO.

    I don't want to spend my time trying to memorize all the possible defaults
    for each browser and each version. Much of the time I spend trying to find
    problems, is because this browser handles this or that object differently
    than another browser or their defaults are different - as was the current
    case.

    Years ago they tried to standardize Unix and never could because none of the
    makers of the different versions wanted to give up their extensions. "We
    will not deal with anything this is NIH" ! One of the reasons many people
    liked Windows over Mac.

    One of the nice things about the GUI interface is it gave you a consistant
    look and feel. What was nice about the Mac was that you could go from
    program to problem and the GUI was the same no matter what the program was.
    And Windows has done the same, for the most part.

    Then we get into this neat new interface that allows you to be OS free and
    allows you to build access to your data and programs without having to worry
    about the GUI. But to change basic functionalities and defaults, just to be
    different, defeats that whole advantage.

    Everyone is trying to get applications off the desktop and onto an
    interface. That is fine. But it isn't if you can't depend on the
    interface. If I build an application that has to be moved from machine to
    machine, that is a hassle, but at least I know what the Screen (interface)
    is going to look like.

    Again IMHO.
    >
    > --
    > Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    > Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
    >
     
    tshad, May 20, 2005
    #15
  16. "tshad" <> wrote:

    > "Toby Inkster" <> wrote:
    > >
    > > Default background colour is just another feature that browsers can and
    > > should compete over.


    Hmm. :) Boy, in all the "Which is the Better Browser" discussions I've
    seen, that particular feature has never come up. But anyway ...

    > And why is that a good thing???
    >
    > If I have elements that are close a grey, because it looks good in IE, then
    > it may be washed out in Netscape.


    Well, it sounds like you're assuming that all browsers will use the same
    background color, which simply isn't a safe assumption. Not just because
    different browsers have different out-of-the-box defaults, but also
    because users can change those defaults.

    In general, if you're planning on setting the color of some element that
    is going to be sitting on a background, it's wise to specify a
    background color as well, to avoid problems just like the one you
    mention.

    > I think there are things you should be able to depend on, and if defaults
    > can be anything - then they are useless as defaults.


    Well, it would be nice to be able to depend on browsers sticking to the
    specs. But A) Specific default colors aren't part of any spec that I'm
    familiar with, and B) Since users can usually change the defaults in
    their own installation, they can't be depended on anyway.

    > Everyone is trying to get applications off the desktop and onto an
    > interface. That is fine. But it isn't if you can't depend on the
    > interface. If I build an application that has to be moved from machine to
    > machine, that is a hassle, but at least I know what the Screen (interface)
    > is going to look like.


    Are you sure about that? Most operating system's GUIs -- including
    Windows -- give the user a lot of flexibility to specify the color of
    various elements, change font size, change thickness of borders, etc.
    You're liable to run into the same problem if you don't take care to
    specify foreground _and_ background colors when the defaults -- whatever
    they are -- aren't being used.

    --
    Joel.
     
    Joel Shepherd, May 20, 2005
    #16
  17. tshad

    Toby Inkster Guest

    tshad wrote:

    > And why is that a good thing???


    Because through experimentation *within* the standards, browsers are able
    to evolve. If it weren't through experimentation and browsers trying to
    offer different things, we'd still be using browsers very much like Mosaic
    1.0.

    > One of the nice things about the GUI interface is it gave you a
    > consistant look and feel.


    If you like consistant look and feels so much, what are you doing writing
    CSS at all? Just use plain, semantic HTML and let the browser's default
    style shine through.

    > If I have elements that are close a grey, because it looks good in IE,
    > then it may be washed out in Netscape.


    So whenever you set a colour, set the background too. It's a simple rule
    to remember. Whenever the amount of gap between two elements is important,
    remember to set the margin, border and padding on both. Easy.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, May 20, 2005
    #17
  18. tshad

    tshad Guest

    "Joel Shepherd" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "tshad" <> wrote:
    >
    >> "Toby Inkster" <> wrote:
    >> >
    >> > Default background colour is just another feature that browsers can and
    >> > should compete over.

    >
    > Hmm. :) Boy, in all the "Which is the Better Browser" discussions I've
    > seen, that particular feature has never come up. But anyway ...
    >
    >> And why is that a good thing???
    >>
    >> If I have elements that are close a grey, because it looks good in IE,
    >> then
    >> it may be washed out in Netscape.

    >
    > Well, it sounds like you're assuming that all browsers will use the same
    > background color, which simply isn't a safe assumption. Not just because
    > different browsers have different out-of-the-box defaults, but also
    > because users can change those defaults.


    You are missing my point.

    I never said not to give users flexibility, but not everything and not every
    default. Even Windows, which does let you change themes and color styles,
    controls what you are allowed to change. You can have all the wierd color
    combinations you want, but they are only going to affect certain objects,
    not everything.

    If a user changes defaults such as color, that is his business and if it
    makes the pages look strange that's fine and his choice.

    But the out of the box defaults for things such as how tables are handled,
    how objects are placed in relation to each other, how much margin or
    padding, etc - should be something you can rely on. Otherwise, they are
    worthless. What is the point of making paragraph margin defaults different.
    There are certain aspects of any object or style that you have to depend on.
    Even in CSS styles - you have to depend on the behavior of the styles or
    they are worthless. What is the point of saying "vertical-align:top" and
    have one browser say that they will align it on the bottom. That makes no
    sense.

    >
    > In general, if you're planning on setting the color of some element that
    > is going to be sitting on a background, it's wise to specify a
    > background color as well, to avoid problems just like the one you
    > mention.
    >


    Agreed.

    >> I think there are things you should be able to depend on, and if defaults
    >> can be anything - then they are useless as defaults.

    >
    > Well, it would be nice to be able to depend on browsers sticking to the
    > specs. But A) Specific default colors aren't part of any spec that I'm
    > familiar with, and B) Since users can usually change the defaults in
    > their own installation, they can't be depended on anyway.


    But they can't change the default of everything.

    And I wasn't the one that mentioned background color which is not the type
    of behavior I was talking about. I am not trying to say that we should not
    have flexibility and creativity. But you can't have it in everything or you
    have chaos.

    >
    >> Everyone is trying to get applications off the desktop and onto an
    >> interface. That is fine. But it isn't if you can't depend on the
    >> interface. If I build an application that has to be moved from machine
    >> to
    >> machine, that is a hassle, but at least I know what the Screen
    >> (interface)
    >> is going to look like.

    >
    > Are you sure about that? Most operating system's GUIs -- including
    > Windows -- give the user a lot of flexibility to specify the color of
    > various elements, change font size, change thickness of borders, etc.
    > You're liable to run into the same problem if you don't take care to
    > specify foreground _and_ background colors when the defaults -- whatever
    > they are -- aren't being used.


    Again, I am not talking about not giving users flexibility. But look at
    what MS allows you to change. You can change the appearance of your screen
    (color tints, Font size) and even styles of windows - but then everything
    will work the same under those conditions. You can't make your own windows
    styles (only the 2 that Windows gives you) or affect how the "Save As" menu
    item works, for example.

    Tom
    >
    > --
    > Joel.
     
    tshad, May 20, 2005
    #18
  19. tshad

    tshad Guest

    "Toby Inkster" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > tshad wrote:
    >
    >> And why is that a good thing???

    >
    > Because through experimentation *within* the standards, browsers are able
    > to evolve. If it weren't through experimentation and browsers trying to
    > offer different things, we'd still be using browsers very much like Mosaic
    > 1.0.


    Right, but as you say, "within standards".

    >
    >> One of the nice things about the GUI interface is it gave you a
    >> consistant look and feel.

    >
    > If you like consistant look and feels so much, what are you doing writing
    > CSS at all? Just use plain, semantic HTML and let the browser's default
    > style shine through.
    >
    >> If I have elements that are close a grey, because it looks good in IE,
    >> then it may be washed out in Netscape.

    >
    > So whenever you set a colour, set the background too. It's a simple rule
    > to remember. Whenever the amount of gap between two elements is important,
    > remember to set the margin, border and padding on both. Easy.
    >


    Missing my point. I agree that you should set these.

    My point was that defaults are worthless (and I am not talking about user
    defaults - but basic standards - how tables, blocks, text, paragraphs
    behave - which you can override by setting the attributes.) if there is no
    standards for the defaults.

    The great thing about standards is that there are so many of them :)

    Tom
    > --
    > Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    > Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
    >
     
    tshad, May 20, 2005
    #19
  20. tshad

    kchayka Guest

    tshad wrote:
    >
    > But the out of the box defaults for things such as how tables are handled,
    > how objects are placed in relation to each other, how much margin or
    > padding, etc - should be something you can rely on. Otherwise, they are
    > worthless. What is the point of making paragraph margin defaults different.


    So are defaults for these kinds of things all handled the same between
    different word processors or other applications? I would guess not.

    > What is the point of saying "vertical-align:top" and
    > have one browser say that they will align it on the bottom. That makes no
    > sense.


    That's also not something up to browser interpretation, but a spec that
    is either followed correctly, or not. If the browser does align at
    bottom, then it is badly broken.

    Under normal circumstances, the default margin and padding values on
    different elements is insignificant. Who cares whether something is 3px
    in one browser and 5px in another? Usually, just control freaks. ;)

    --
    Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
    Please reply to the group so everyone can share.
     
    kchayka, May 21, 2005
    #20
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