span versus div

Discussion in 'HTML' started by KiwiBrian, Nov 24, 2004.

  1. KiwiBrian

    KiwiBrian Guest

    I have a multiline bit of text which is aligned left. I wish to align the
    last couple of words right. (A Phone number)
    If I use <span style"text-align:right">Phone number</span> to try and
    accomplish this it is ignored.
    If I change the span tag to a div tag it works but inserts a virtual
    line-feed.
    What is the correct way of using CSS to force a word to be aligned
    differently to the rest of the line?
    Why does the span tag not work as I expect?

    Brian Tozer
     
    KiwiBrian, Nov 24, 2004
    #1
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  2. KiwiBrian

    rf Guest

    KiwiBrian wrote:

    > I have a multiline bit of text which is aligned left. I wish to align the
    > last couple of words right. (A Phone number)


    Hmmm. Tricky.

    If you are letting the browser flow the bit of text then it's hard. However
    it sounds like you have something like a name and address etc:

    name
    addr1
    addr2
    email [ --> over there] phone

    This is easy.

    > If I use <span style"text-align:right">Phone number</span> to try and
    > accomplish this it is ignored.


    text-align is used to align the text *within* the element, not the element
    itself. text-align also only applies to block level elements. That's why it
    doesn't work with <span> which is inline. Even if it did the size of a span
    element is exactly the size of its content so there is nowhere for the text
    to move to *be* aligned.

    > If I change the span tag to a div tag it works but inserts a virtual
    > line-feed.


    Yep. That is how block level elements work. They stack vertically down the
    page, unless you tell them otherwise.

    > What is the correct way of using CSS to force


    There is no way to force anything. You can only suggest :)

    > a word to be aligned
    > differently to the rest of the line?


    Float.

    name<br>
    addr1<br>
    addr2<br>
    <span style="float: right;">phone number</span>email<br>


    > Why does the span tag not work as I expect?


    Element. It is a span element.

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Nov 24, 2004
    #2
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  3. In article <co0okf$i52$>, "KiwiBrian"
    <> wrote:

    > If I use <span style"text-align:right">Phone number</span> to try and
    > accomplish this it is ignored.

    <snip>
    > Why does the span tag not work as I expect?


    You're missing an equals sign. <span style="text-align: right">

    leo

    --
    <http://web0.greatbasin.net/~leo/>
     
    Leonard Blaisdell, Nov 24, 2004
    #3
  4. KiwiBrian

    KiwiBrian Guest

    "Leonard Blaisdell" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <co0okf$i52$>, "KiwiBrian"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> If I use <span style"text-align:right">Phone number</span> to try and
    >> accomplish this it is ignored.

    > <snip>
    >> Why does the span tag not work as I expect?

    >
    > You're missing an equals sign. <span style="text-align: right">


    Doh!! Or Dugh!!
    Thanks Leo. Unfortunately that was a typo in my post and the source was
    correct.
    Richard has given me a superb answer for what I meant to write and you have
    for what I did actually write. :))

    Brian Tozer
     
    KiwiBrian, Nov 24, 2004
    #4
  5. KiwiBrian

    KiwiBrian Guest

    "rf" <rf@.invalid> wrote in message
    news:4WRod.46516$...
    > KiwiBrian wrote:
    >
    >> I have a multiline bit of text which is aligned left. I wish to align the
    >> last couple of words right. (A Phone number)

    >
    > Hmmm. Tricky.
    >
    > If you are letting the browser flow the bit of text then it's hard.
    > However
    > it sounds like you have something like a name and address etc:
    >
    > name
    > addr1
    > addr2
    > email [ --> over there] phone
    >
    > This is easy.
    >
    >> If I use <span style"text-align:right">Phone number</span> to try and
    >> accomplish this it is ignored.

    >
    > text-align is used to align the text *within* the element, not the element
    > itself. text-align also only applies to block level elements. That's why
    > it
    > doesn't work with <span> which is inline. Even if it did the size of a
    > span
    > element is exactly the size of its content so there is nowhere for the
    > text
    > to move to *be* aligned.
    >
    >> If I change the span tag to a div tag it works but inserts a virtual
    >> line-feed.

    >
    > Yep. That is how block level elements work. They stack vertically down the
    > page, unless you tell them otherwise.
    >
    >> What is the correct way of using CSS to force

    >
    > There is no way to force anything. You can only suggest :)
    >
    >> a word to be aligned
    >> differently to the rest of the line?

    >
    > Float.
    >
    > name<br>
    > addr1<br>
    > addr2<br>
    > <span style="float: right;">phone number</span>email<br>


    Thanks Richard for your trouble.
    A superb answer
    One to study, digest, understand, and hopefully never forget.

    Brian Tozer
     
    KiwiBrian, Nov 24, 2004
    #5
  6. KiwiBrian

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Previously in alt.html, KiwiBrian <> said:

    > Thanks Leo. Unfortunately that was a typo in my post and the source was
    > correct.


    One of the many reasons that it is best to post a URL rather than
    snippets of code.

    Not having a go at you, BTW - just a general comment.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    "Never drink rum&coke whilst reading usenet" - rf 2004
     
    Mark Parnell, Nov 24, 2004
    #6
  7. KiwiBrian

    Spartanicus Guest

    "rf" <rf@.invalid> wrote:

    >KiwiBrian wrote:
    >
    >> I have a multiline bit of text which is aligned left. I wish to align the
    >> last couple of words right. (A Phone number)


    >Float.


    Using floating for this purpose is a hack which as per usual causes
    nasty problems, it's unfortunately needed for IE, but proper browsers
    should be fed a proper method:
    http://www.spartanicus.utvinternet.ie/left_and_right_alignment_using_css.htm

    --
    Spartanicus
     
    Spartanicus, Nov 24, 2004
    #7
  8. KiwiBrian

    rf Guest

    Spartanicus argued:
    > "rf" <rf@.invalid> wrote:
    >
    > >KiwiBrian wrote:
    > >
    > >> I have a multiline bit of text which is aligned left. I wish to align

    the
    > >> last couple of words right. (A Phone number)

    >
    > >Float.

    >
    > Using floating for this purpose is a hack which as per usual causes
    > nasty problems, it's unfortunately needed for IE,


    And just why would that be a hack? Float a standard procedure, it works (in
    this situation) and is admaribly suited to what the OP wanted.

    If you are thinking that floating a <span> is a hack then look at the spec.
    Float applies to "all but positioned elements and generated content".

    What nasty problems would exhibit? Apart from the usual IE box model and
    float problems which do not apply to such a simple case.

    > but proper browsers
    > should be fed a proper method:
    >

    http://www.spartanicus.utvinternet.ie/left_and_right_alignment_using_css.htm

    I agree. Proper browsers should be fed proper food.

    But, until the whole world is full of "proper browsers" rather than the
    current estimate of 80% IE would you use this in a web situation? Would you
    purposely instruct the OP to use something that *will* fail for those 80% of
    viewers? I would not.

    In any case that solution uses a table. The fact that the elements are given
    their table qualities with CSS rather than HTML is irrelevant. It is still a
    table. One of these days I am going to construct a CSS table and an HTML
    table and thouroughly inspect the resulting DOM. I suspect there will be
    minimum difference between the two constructs.

    You have called me out a few times recently with this sort of stuff. Until
    you prove what you assert with properly cited references I will assume that
    your comments are merely your own opinion.

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Nov 24, 2004
    #8
  9. KiwiBrian

    Spartanicus Guest

    "rf" <rf@.invalid> wrote:

    >> Using floating for this purpose is a hack which as per usual causes
    >> nasty problems, it's unfortunately needed for IE,

    >
    >And just why would that be a hack?


    Any usage of floats other than to get inline content to "wrap around"
    the contour of the floated element is a hack and fundamentally
    inappropriate.

    >Float a standard procedure


    I've no idea what "standard procedure" refers to. Regrettably many
    people use floats all over the place to get around IE's inadequacies,
    but that does not make it correct usage.

    >, it works (in this situation)


    It also causes problems in this situation.

    >and is admaribly suited to what the OP wanted.


    Not pandering to what OPs want is a good tradition here, first the most
    appropriate solution should be noted, where a hack is suggested the
    caveats should be pointed out.

    >What nasty problems would exhibit?


    1) Floats are not part of the flow, this is something many people do not
    fathom and is a common cause of confusion. This is especially an issue
    when floating is used inappropriately (overlapping content, scrollbar
    not appearing when it should, vertical displacement etc.).
    2) UAs are riddled with float bugs.

    >> but proper browsers
    >> should be fed a proper method:
    >>

    >http://www.spartanicus.utvinternet.ie/left_and_right_alignment_using_css.htm
    >
    >I agree. Proper browsers should be fed proper food.
    >
    >But, until the whole world is full of "proper browsers" rather than the
    >current estimate of 80% IE would you use this in a web situation? Would you
    >purposely instruct the OP to use something that *will* fail for those 80% of
    >viewers? I would not.


    Apparently you've not bothered to look at the document, it feeds a
    proper method to CSS compliant UAs and a hack to IE.

    >In any case that solution uses a table. The fact that the elements are given
    >their table qualities with CSS rather than HTML is irrelevant. It is still a
    >table.


    Oh dear, you appear to have missed the rather important distinction
    between CSS and HTML tables.

    >One of these days I am going to construct a CSS table and an HTML
    >table and thouroughly inspect the resulting DOM. I suspect there will be
    >minimum difference between the two constructs.


    Sensible UAs probably implement a CSS table model and map HTML tables to
    that model, not that this matters to the point here.

    --
    Spartanicus
     
    Spartanicus, Nov 24, 2004
    #9
  10. KiwiBrian

    Neal Guest

    On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 08:12:59 +0000, Spartanicus <> wrote:

    > "rf" <rf@.invalid> wrote:
    >
    >> KiwiBrian wrote:
    >>
    >>> I have a multiline bit of text which is aligned left. I wish to align
    >>> the
    >>> last couple of words right. (A Phone number)

    >
    >> Float.

    >
    > Using floating for this purpose is a hack


    While I disagree with the above statement, wrapping the two items in
    markup set to position: relative, and then absolutely positioning the
    second element with say top:0 and left: 10em would result in the desired
    effect without reliance on float.

    Still, float is simpler.
     
    Neal, Nov 24, 2004
    #10
  11. KiwiBrian

    rf Guest

    Spartanicus wrote:

    > >What nasty problems would exhibit?

    >
    > 1) Floats are not part of the flow, this is something many people do not
    > fathom and is a common cause of confusion. This is especially an issue
    > when floating is used inappropriately (overlapping content, scrollbar
    > not appearing when it should, vertical displacement etc.).


    You missed the single problem with the float "hack" that would affect the
    example under question: The phone number would be linearised before the
    email.

    There would be no overlaping content, no missing scrollbars. Are you sure
    you are not confusing float with absolute positioning.

    > 2) UAs are riddled with float bugs.


    Which do not trigger in this exemple. On the other hand the most widely used
    browser does not support CSS tables. Also, the OP probablyl does not support
    CSS tables. Why introduce heaps of CSS, including CSS hacks tofeed IE
    something different (which that page you presented does not explain) and
    other stuf that may just confuese him?

    For that matter why does your example replace CSS tables with a float "hack"
    for IE? Why not replace the CSS table with an HTML table which IE
    understands perfectly, without any float problems, including the linearizing
    problem? You like CSS tables but you dislike HTML tables so much you would
    use float, which you state is a "hack"? Really now :)

    > >
    > >I agree. Proper browsers should be fed proper food.
    > >
    > >But, until the whole world is full of "proper browsers" rather than the
    > >current estimate of 80% IE would you use this in a web situation? Would

    you
    > >purposely instruct the OP to use something that *will* fail for those 80%

    of
    > >viewers? I would not.

    >
    > Apparently you've not bothered to look at the document, it feeds a
    > proper method to CSS compliant UAs and a hack to IE.


    And just where does the document explain this. It shows it certainly but it
    does not explain it? I see a float: left but the OP would probably not
    understand the significance of this, and the body> stuff that follows. In
    fact that itself is a hack, the standard "hide CSS from IE" hack. You are
    using a hack to use a, your term, hack :)

    Another point, your page quite clearly states that "Opera 6 fails to render
    this correctly". You provide a solution that you *know* breaks with a
    certain browser?

    > >In any case that solution uses a table. The fact that the elements are

    given
    > >their table qualities with CSS rather than HTML is irrelevant. It is

    still a
    > >table.

    >
    > Oh dear, you appear to have missed the rather important distinction
    > between CSS and HTML tables.


    Oh dear indeed. I think you should go over to the CSS spec and read again
    chapter 17, the table chapter.
    Some random quotes from that chapter:

    <quote>
    The preceding example shows how CSS works with HTML 4.0 elements; in HTML
    4.0, the semantics of the various table elements (TABLE, CAPTION, THEAD,
    TBODY, TFOOT, COL, COLGROUP, TH, and TD) are well-defined. In other document
    languages (such as XML applications), there may not be pre-defined table
    elements. Therefore, CSS2 allows authors to "map" document language elements
    to table elements via the 'display' property. For example, the following
    rule makes the FOO element act like an HTML TABLE element and the BAR
    element act like a CAPTION element:
    </quote>

    CSS tables allow an author to reproduce HTML tables.

    <quote>
    The CSS table model is based on the HTML 4.0 table mode
    </quote>

    Pretty much sums it up. CSS tables, being based on the HTML table model,
    probably *are* HTML tables. That is there is nothing different between <span
    style="display: table-cell"> and <td>, just as there is nothing different
    between <span style="font-size: 2em; font-weight: bolder; display: block;
    margin: .67em 0;"> and <h1>.

    <quote>
    Thus, the table model consists of tables, captions, rows, row groups,
    columns, column groups, and cells.
    </quote>

    Now we know what the table model is and:

    <quote>
    The CSS model does not require that the document language include elements
    that correspond to each of these components. For document languages (such as
    XML applications) that do not have pre-defined table elements, authors must
    map document language elements to table elements; this is done with the
    'display' property. The following 'display' values assign table semantics to
    an arbitrary element:
    </quote>

    OK, if we, in our XML application, do not have the predefined <table>, <tr>,
    <td> etc elements we build them with CSS. That is I, in my XML application,
    actually build a <td> element that is behaves exactly the same as the HTML
    <td> element. Conversly because our language, (X)HTML, *does* have these
    elements so we don't have to build them with CSS.

    Throughout the rest of the chapter there are many examples. The CSS
    exampless show how to build the above <td> etc elements.

    The (X)HTML examples exclusivly use <table> etc. They do not use something
    like <li> and li {display: table-cell}. They use <table> because the
    language that *this* CSS is acting on is HTML.

    I restate my prior assertion: CSS tables *are* HTML tables. There is no
    difference between the two.

    I would dismiss your whole page and replace it with a simple HTML table.

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Nov 24, 2004
    #11
  12. Mark Parnell <> wrote:

    >> Thanks Leo. Unfortunately that was a typo in my post and the source
    >> was correct.

    >
    > One of the many reasons that it is best to post a URL rather than
    > snippets of code.


    Besides, if the URL had been posted, we would already know that the real
    problem calls for a table, since the OP wants to present some tabular
    material (and have it displayed in columns, the usual way of rendering
    tables visually). Now it's only 95 % certain.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
     
    Jukka K. Korpela, Nov 24, 2004
    #12
  13. KiwiBrian

    Spartanicus Guest

    Neal <> wrote:

    >>>> I have a multiline bit of text which is aligned left. I wish to align
    >>>> the last couple of words right. (A Phone number)

    >>
    >>> Float.

    >>
    >> Using floating for this purpose is a hack

    >
    >While I disagree with the above statement


    Got a reason to go with that?

    >, wrapping the two items in
    >markup set to position: relative, and then absolutely positioning the
    >second element with say top:0 and left: 10em would result in the desired
    >effect without reliance on float.


    Another of my favorite bugbears, inappropriate usage of absolute
    positioning.

    --
    Spartanicus
     
    Spartanicus, Nov 25, 2004
    #13
  14. KiwiBrian

    rf Guest

    rf wrote:

    > I restate my prior assertion: CSS tables *are* HTML tables. There is no
    > difference between the two.


    On thinking about this I think I may add an addendum to that assertion.

    CSS properties pertaining to tables (commonly known as CSS tables) are not
    for building tables as such. They are for building elements that have table
    like behavoiur exactly like the HTML table elements. These new elements may
    then be used to build tables.

    This only applies if the XML under discussion does not already have these
    elements. If the language already has elements that behave like HTML table
    elements then there is no need to use the CSS properties to buld new
    elements, rather simply use the provided elements.

    So, CSS tables are not really the same as HTML tables after all. CSS
    "tables" properties are used to build building blocks in non-HTML (say)
    languages that may be used to build HTML like tables.

    <aside>
    I have particular concern with authors taking already existing HTML
    elements, like <ol> or <li> and turning these into different elements that
    have HTML table like behaviour. This is just downright confusing.

    If an author *must* use the CSS properties then IMHO they should be applied
    to an element that has no other perceived meaning, like a <div>.
    </aside>

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Nov 25, 2004
    #14
  15. KiwiBrian

    Toby Inkster Guest

    rf wrote:

    > If an author *must* use the CSS properties then IMHO they should be applied
    > to an element that has no other perceived meaning, like a <div>.


    An example from some time ago -- using <ul>, <li>, <blockquote> and <p>
    to create a semantically correct list of quotations, but visually presenting
    it as a table.

    http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/table-tricks/q

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, Nov 25, 2004
    #15
  16. KiwiBrian

    rf Guest

    Spartanicus

    > Another of my favorite bugbears, inappropriate usage of absolute
    > positioning.


    So what would be an *appropriate* use of absolute positioning?

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Nov 25, 2004
    #16
  17. KiwiBrian

    Duende Guest

    While sitting in a puddle rf scribbled in the mud:

    > Spartanicus
    >
    >> Another of my favorite bugbears, inappropriate usage of absolute
    >> positioning.

    >
    > So what would be an *appropriate* use of absolute positioning?
    >


    Putting the little roll of paper next to the toilet.

    --
    Duende (irregular)
    Friends help you move.
    Real friends help you move bodies.
     
    Duende, Nov 25, 2004
    #17
  18. KiwiBrian

    Spartanicus Guest

    "rf" <rf@.invalid> wrote:

    >> >What nasty problems would exhibit?

    >>
    >> 1) Floats are not part of the flow, this is something many people do not
    >> fathom and is a common cause of confusion. This is especially an issue
    >> when floating is used inappropriately (overlapping content, scrollbar
    >> not appearing when it should, vertical displacement etc.).

    >
    >You missed the single problem with the float "hack" that would affect the
    >example under question: The phone number would be linearised before the
    >email.


    If I understood KiwiBrian's OP correctly (an url would have prevented
    any doubt) then he's aligning text in the same vertical space, part left
    aligned, part right aligned. Narrow the viewport enough and one or more
    of the problems I described occur.

    >> 2) UAs are riddled with float bugs.

    >
    >Which do not trigger in this exemple.


    You know them all? There are to many to keep track of even if you
    restrict yourself to the big 3 rendering engines.

    >On the other hand the most widely used browser does not support CSS tables.


    Again: that's why *it* is served a hack, proper UAs get fed a proper
    method.

    >Also, the OP probablyl does not support CSS tables.


    CSS table support is a UA property, not an author property.

    >Why introduce heaps of CSS


    7 lines of CSS, but there's nothing like exaggeration to make it appear
    like you have a point.

    > including CSS hacks tofeed IE
    >something different (which that page you presented does not explain)


    It's pretty much a cut and paste solution to a single well defined
    problem, not a CSS table tutorial.

    >and other stuf that may just confuese him?


    He might learn something. If he has no desire to learn, cut and paste
    suffices.

    >For that matter why does your example replace CSS tables with a float "hack"
    >for IE? Why not replace the CSS table with an HTML table which IE
    >understands perfectly, without any float problems, including the linearizing
    >problem? You like CSS tables but you dislike HTML tables so much you would
    >use float, which you state is a "hack"? Really now :)


    HTML tables are for marking up tabular content, any HTML element can be
    set to *behave* like a table element without having to resort to non
    semantic markup.

    I strongly suggest that you brush up on your basic HTML and CSS
    knowledge, you have a fundamentally wrong view of how the 2 work.

    >> Apparently you've not bothered to look at the document, it feeds a
    >> proper method to CSS compliant UAs and a hack to IE.

    >
    >And just where does the document explain this. It shows it certainly but it
    >does not explain it?


    Apparently you have eye sight issues to boot. From the page:

    Explanation:

    CSS tables are the proper tool for this job, unfortunately poor old IE
    doesn't support them. IE is therefore fed a hack using a float, however
    using floats for alignment suffers from a number of nasty drawbacks
    (overlapping content when the window width isn't wide enough, or
    vertical displacement). By using this method, at least these drawbacks
    remain confined to poor old IE, other browsers should display a
    scrollbar if there isn't enough width available.

    >Another point, your page quite clearly states that "Opera 6 fails to render
    >this correctly". You provide a solution that you *know* breaks with a
    >certain browser?


    I don't code fallbacks for certain UAs, examples are IE5.0, IE/Mac and
    O6. I used to think that O6 was a capable CSS renderer and coded to keep
    it happy, that opinion has changed since O7. There are well known hacks
    available for those that want to add a fallback for O6.

    >> >In any case that solution uses a table. The fact that the elements are

    >given
    >> >their table qualities with CSS rather than HTML is irrelevant. It is

    >still a
    >> >table.

    >>
    >> Oh dear, you appear to have missed the rather important distinction
    >> between CSS and HTML tables.

    >
    >Oh dear indeed. I think you should go over to the CSS spec and read again
    >chapter 17, the table chapter.
    >Some random quotes from that chapter:
    >
    ><quote>
    >The preceding example shows how CSS works with HTML 4.0 elements; in HTML
    >4.0, the semantics of the various table elements (TABLE, CAPTION, THEAD,
    >TBODY, TFOOT, COL, COLGROUP, TH, and TD) are well-defined. In other document
    >languages (such as XML applications), there may not be pre-defined table
    >elements. Therefore, CSS2 allows authors to "map" document language elements
    >to table elements via the 'display' property. For example, the following
    >rule makes the FOO element act like an HTML TABLE element and the BAR
    >element act like a CAPTION element:
    ></quote>
    >
    >CSS tables allow an author to reproduce HTML tables.


    Your ignorance may be beyond salvation, there's a rather important
    distinction between an element *acting* like an HTML table and an HTML
    table with the associated semantics.

    >That is there is nothing different between <span
    >style="display: table-cell"> and <td>, just as there is nothing different
    >between <span style="font-size: 2em; font-weight: bolder; display: block;
    >margin: .67em 0;"> and <h1>.


    You really are clueless.

    >Now we know what the table model is and:
    >
    ><quote>
    > The CSS model does not require that the document language include elements
    >that correspond to each of these components. For document languages (such as
    >XML applications) that do not have pre-defined table elements, authors must
    >map document language elements to table elements; this is done with the
    >'display' property. The following 'display' values assign table semantics to
    >an arbitrary element:
    ></quote>
    >
    >OK, if we, in our XML application, do not have the predefined <table>, <tr>,
    ><td> etc elements we build them with CSS. That is I, in my XML application,
    >actually build a <td> element that is behaves exactly the same as the HTML
    ><td> element. Conversly because our language, (X)HTML, *does* have these
    >elements so we don't have to build them with CSS.


    Afaik XML has *no* semantics, which makes any comparison between it and
    HTML pointless.

    --
    Spartanicus
     
    Spartanicus, Nov 25, 2004
    #18
  19. KiwiBrian

    rf Guest

    rf, Nov 25, 2004
    #19
  20. KiwiBrian

    rf Guest

    Toby Inkster wrote:
    > rf wrote:
    >
    > > If an author *must* use the CSS properties then IMHO they should be

    applied
    > > to an element that has no other perceived meaning, like a <div>.

    >
    > An example from some time ago -- using <ul>, <li>, <blockquote> and <p>
    > to create a semantically correct list of quotations, but visually

    presenting
    > it as a table.
    >
    > http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/table-tricks/q


    <grin>
    http://users.bigpond.net.au/rf/temp/quotes.gif
    </grin>

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Nov 25, 2004
    #20
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