speeding up javac

Discussion in 'Java' started by Aryeh M. Friedman, Jan 2, 2009.

  1. I have a very large project that would take to long to recompile stuff
    that does not need to be recompiled. For various reasons using ANT
    is not possible (doesn't play well enough with other languages). I
    looked into Jikes but that is no good because our code is 1.5+. I
    tried javac with -g:none and -server and had no improvement at all.
    Is there any other way to speed stuff up and still compile things one
    class at a time?
    Aryeh M. Friedman, Jan 2, 2009
    #1
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  2. Aryeh M. Friedman

    JC Guest

    On Jan 2, 1:05 am, "Aryeh M. Friedman" <>
    wrote:
    > I have a very large project that would take to long to recompile stuff
    > that does not need to be recompiled.   For various reasons using ANT
    > is not possible (doesn't play well enough with other languages).  I
    > looked into Jikes but that is no good because our code is 1.5+.   I
    > tried javac with -g:none and -server and had no improvement at all.
    > Is there any other way to speed stuff up and still compile things one
    > class at a time?


    Maybe use Make? Or compile only the Java parts with ANT, but use
    something else for the rest of the code that ANT is causing you
    problems with?

    HTH,
    Jason
    JC, Jan 2, 2009
    #2
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  3. On Jan 2, 1:36 am, JC <> wrote:
    > On Jan 2, 1:05 am, "Aryeh M. Friedman" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > > I have a very large project that would take to long to recompile stuff
    > > that does not need to be recompiled.   For various reasons using ANT
    > > is not possible (doesn't play well enough with other languages).  I
    > > looked into Jikes but that is no good because our code is 1.5+.   I
    > > tried javac with -g:none and -server and had no improvement at all.
    > > Is there any other way to speed stuff up and still compile things one
    > > class at a time?

    >
    > Maybe use Make? Or compile only the Java parts with ANT, but use
    > something else for the rest of the code that ANT is causing you
    > problems with?
    >
    > HTH,
    > Jason


    I use cook which is much smarter then make and subtasking to an other
    build program would ruin many of the best features of cook such as
    full project scanning.
    Aryeh M. Friedman, Jan 2, 2009
    #3
  4. Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:
    > I have a very large project that would take to long to recompile
    > stuff
    > that does not need to be recompiled. For various reasons using ANT
    > is not possible (doesn't play well enough with other languages). I
    > looked into Jikes but that is no good because our code is 1.5+. I
    > tried javac with -g:none and -server and had no improvement at all.
    > Is there any other way to speed stuff up and still compile things
    > one
    > class at a time?


    If ANT's minimal dependency management is sufficient for your project,
    it wouldn't be difficult to write a Java program that reproduces it
    and could be called from any make-like build system. In fact, you'd
    only have to slightly modify the code that ANT's javac task uses.
    Mike Schilling, Jan 2, 2009
    #4
  5. On Jan 2, 2:01 am, "Mike Schilling" <>
    wrote:
    > Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:
    > > I have a very large project that would take to long to recompile
    > > stuff
    > > that does not need to be recompiled.   For various reasons using ANT
    > > is not possible (doesn't play well enough with other languages).  I
    > > looked into Jikes but that is no good because our code is 1.5+.   I
    > > tried javac with -g:none and -server and had no improvement at all.
    > > Is there any other way to speed stuff up and still compile things
    > > one
    > > class at a time?

    >
    > If ANT's minimal dependency management is sufficient for your project,
    > it wouldn't be difficult to write a Java program that reproduces it
    > and could be called from any make-like build system.  In fact, you'd
    > only have to slightly modify the code that ANT's javac task uses.


    I already did this to some extent when it selects what to compile (I
    wrote a little program to scan imports to make this decision)... yes I
    know it is a little dumb since it needs an explicit import for
    everything with no wild cards.
    Aryeh M. Friedman, Jan 2, 2009
    #5
  6. On Jan 2, 5:05 pm, "Aryeh M. Friedman" <>
    wrote:
    > I have a very large project that would take to long ...


    Idea. Get a faster box or be more patient.

    --
    Andrew Thompson
    http://pscode.org/
    Andrew Thompson, Jan 2, 2009
    #6
  7. On Jan 2, 5:33 am, Andrew Thompson <> wrote:
    > On Jan 2, 5:05 pm, "Aryeh M. Friedman" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > > I have a very large project that would take to long ...

    >
    > Idea.  Get a faster box or be more patient.
    >
    > --
    > Andrew Thompsonhttp://pscode.org/


    Not to bragging but quad core running at 2.58 GHz and 4 GB of RAM with
    a sata 300 drive should be enough... and as far as patience goes I
    think 5 mins to recompile for a 1 one line change is insane
    (exspecially when we do this on a quite regular basis [say 20 times an
    hour])
    Aryeh M. Friedman, Jan 2, 2009
    #7
  8. On Jan 2, 5:42 am, "Aryeh M. Friedman" <>
    wrote:
    > On Jan 2, 5:33 am, Andrew Thompson <> wrote:
    >
    > > On Jan 2, 5:05 pm, "Aryeh M. Friedman" <>
    > > wrote:

    >
    > > > I have a very large project that would take to long ...

    >
    > > Idea.  Get a faster box or be more patient.

    >
    > > --
    > > Andrew Thompsonhttp://pscode.org/

    >
    > Not to bragging but quad core running at 2.58 GHz and 4 GB of RAM with
    > a sata 300 drive should be enough... and as far as patience goes I
    > think 5 mins to recompile for a 1 one line change is insane
    > (exspecially when we do this on a quite regular basis [say 20 times an
    > hour])


    Forgot to mention without the import scanner I mentioned it is 45 mins
    (that is with javac `find . -name '*.java'` not compiling one at a
    time I never bothered to time that but it would likely be well over 2
    hrs
    Aryeh M. Friedman, Jan 2, 2009
    #8
  9. On Jan 2, 9:42 pm, "Aryeh M. Friedman" <>
    wrote:
    > On Jan 2, 5:33 am, Andrew Thompson <> wrote:
    >
    > > On Jan 2, 5:05 pm, "Aryeh M. Friedman" <>
    > > wrote:

    >
    > > > I have a very large project that would take to long ...

    >
    > > Idea.  Get a faster box or be more patient.

    >
    > > --
    > > Andrew Thompsonhttp://pscode.org/

    >
    > Not to bragging ..


    While you are 'not bragging' please don't forget
    to trim sigs. from replies. Not all of us have
    broadband-on-demand. TIA.

    --
    Andrew Thompson
    http://pscode.org/
    Andrew Thompson, Jan 2, 2009
    #9
  10. Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:
    > On Jan 2, 5:33 am, Andrew Thompson <> wrote:
    >> On Jan 2, 5:05 pm, "Aryeh M. Friedman" <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> I have a very large project that would take to long ...

    >> Idea. Get a faster box or be more patient.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Andrew Thompsonhttp://pscode.org/

    >
    > Not to bragging but quad core running at 2.58 GHz and 4 GB of RAM with
    > a sata 300 drive should be enough... and as far as patience goes I
    > think 5 mins to recompile for a 1 one line change is insane
    > (exspecially when we do this on a quite regular basis [say 20 times an
    > hour])


    That does indeed sound insane. How can javac's speed be an issue? Do you
    have a single .java file containing a titanic amount of code? Are you
    asking javac to compile .java files that don't need compiling? (if so why?)

    Either you are doing something rather unusual or my knowledge of Java is
    incomplete in some interesting way - please enlighten me.

    --
    RGB
    RedGrittyBrick, Jan 2, 2009
    #10
  11. On Jan 2, 6:07 am, RedGrittyBrick <>
    wrote:
    > Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:
    > > On Jan 2, 5:33 am, Andrew Thompson <> wrote:
    > >> On Jan 2, 5:05 pm, "Aryeh M. Friedman" <>
    > >> wrote:

    >
    > >>> I have a very large project that would take to long ...
    > >> Idea.  Get a faster box or be more patient.

    >
    > >> --
    > >> Andrew Thompsonhttp://pscode.org/

    >
    > > Not to bragging but quad core running at 2.58 GHz and 4 GB of RAM with
    > > a sata 300 drive should be enough... and as far as patience goes I
    > > think 5 mins to recompile for a 1 one line change is insane
    > > (exspecially when we do this on a quite regular basis [say 20 times an
    > > hour])

    >
    > That does indeed sound insane. How can javac's speed be an issue? Do you
    > have a single .java file containing a titanic amount of code? Are you
    > asking javac to compile .java files that don't need compiling? (if so why?)
    >
    > Either you are doing something rather unusual or my knowledge of Java is
    > incomplete in some interesting way - please enlighten me.
    >
    > --
    > RGB


    About 80% of that time is taken up by the import scanner (needs to
    read about 5,000 files) and the start/stop time for javac.... part of
    the issue (and there is no progrmatic way around this I can think of)
    is if class Y depends on X and X was recompiled then Y is also
    recompiled (make and all it's variants also do this and do a much
    worse job then cook does at it)
    Aryeh M. Friedman, Jan 2, 2009
    #11
  12. Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:
    >
    > Not to bragging but quad core running at 2.58 GHz and 4 GB of RAM with
    > a sata 300 drive should be enough... and as far as patience goes I
    > think 5 mins to recompile for a 1 one line change is insane
    > (exspecially when we do this on a quite regular basis [say 20 times an
    > hour])


    It sounds like you should have chunked this job up into some libraries.
    I read below that it has 5000 files. Assuming the files are of some
    reasonable size that means the program is probably well over a million
    lines of code. That's a lot of code for anybody for one program.

    Just a suggestion but why don't you change 20 lines of code and compile
    once an hour? Just keeping track of where you are working in a program
    that size must take some time.

    --

    Knute Johnson
    email s/nospam/knute2009/

    --
    Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
    ------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com<<<<<<------
    Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access
    Knute Johnson, Jan 2, 2009
    #12
  13. Aryeh M. Friedman

    JC Guest

    On Jan 2, 6:11 am, "Aryeh M. Friedman" <>
    wrote:
    > On Jan 2, 6:07 am, RedGrittyBrick <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:
    > > > On Jan 2, 5:33 am, Andrew Thompson <> wrote:
    > > >> On Jan 2, 5:05 pm, "Aryeh M. Friedman" <>
    > > >> wrote:

    >
    > > >>> I have a very large project that would take to long ...
    > > >> Idea.  Get a faster box or be more patient.

    >
    > > >> --
    > > >> Andrew Thompsonhttp://pscode.org/

    >
    > > > Not to bragging but quad core running at 2.58 GHz and 4 GB of RAM with
    > > > a sata 300 drive should be enough... and as far as patience goes I
    > > > think 5 mins to recompile for a 1 one line change is insane
    > > > (exspecially when we do this on a quite regular basis [say 20 times an
    > > > hour])

    >
    > > That does indeed sound insane. How can javac's speed be an issue? Do you
    > > have a single .java file containing a titanic amount of code? Are you
    > > asking javac to compile .java files that don't need compiling? (if so why?)

    >
    > > Either you are doing something rather unusual or my knowledge of Java is
    > > incomplete in some interesting way - please enlighten me.

    >
    > > --
    > > RGB

    >
    > About 80% of that time is taken up by the import scanner (needs to
    > read about 5,000 files)


    What is the "import scanner"? Can you not run it if imports haven't
    changed, or do you have to run it every time you compile a small
    change?

    > and the start/stop time for javac....


    The clear solution here is to reduce the number of times javac starts
    and stops. If you have to compile a single source file at a time, then
    you can't really do anything here. However, if you have the ability to
    generate a list of files that need recompiled, javac can accept lists
    of files:

    http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/tooldocs/windows/javac.html

    And you can eliminate start/stop overhead by generating the list first
    then running javac only once.

    > part of
    > the issue (and there is no progrmatic way around this I can think of)
    > is if class Y depends on X and X was recompiled then Y is also
    > recompiled (make and all it's variants also do this and do a much
    > worse job then cook does at it)


    There is no good programmatic way around this, you are correct. The
    compiler would have to track information about what parts of X were
    relevant to Y, then analyze your code changes to determine if any of
    those relevant parts had changed, and only recompile Y if they have.
    This is not trivial, and javac does not do it. Note, however, that
    certain design techniques can significantly reduce interdependency
    between classes; e.g. copious use of interfaces, more specific classes
    (e.g. if Y depends on one part of X that is frequently changing, and Z
    depends on another part of X, perhaps it is more appropriate to split
    X into two more specific classes), anything that increases the
    modularity and isolation of your code will help reduce dependencies.


    Jason
    JC, Jan 2, 2009
    #13
  14. Aryeh M. Friedman

    JC Guest

    On Jan 2, 1:28 pm, JC <> wrote:
    > On Jan 2, 6:11 am, "Aryeh M. Friedman" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Jan 2, 6:07 am, RedGrittyBrick <>
    > > wrote:

    >
    > > > Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:
    > > > > On Jan 2, 5:33 am, Andrew Thompson <> wrote:
    > > > >> On Jan 2, 5:05 pm, "Aryeh M. Friedman" <>
    > > > >> wrote:

    >
    > > > >>> I have a very large project that would take to long ...
    > > > >> Idea.  Get a faster box or be more patient.

    >
    > > > >> --
    > > > >> Andrew Thompsonhttp://pscode.org/

    >
    > > > > Not to bragging but quad core running at 2.58 GHz and 4 GB of RAM with
    > > > > a sata 300 drive should be enough... and as far as patience goes I
    > > > > think 5 mins to recompile for a 1 one line change is insane
    > > > > (exspecially when we do this on a quite regular basis [say 20 times an
    > > > > hour])

    >
    > > > That does indeed sound insane. How can javac's speed be an issue? Do you
    > > > have a single .java file containing a titanic amount of code? Are you
    > > > asking javac to compile .java files that don't need compiling? (if so why?)

    >
    > > > Either you are doing something rather unusual or my knowledge of Java is
    > > > incomplete in some interesting way - please enlighten me.

    >
    > > > --
    > > > RGB

    >
    > > About 80% of that time is taken up by the import scanner (needs to
    > > read about 5,000 files)

    >
    > What is the "import scanner"? Can you not run it if imports haven't
    > changed, or do you have to run it every time you compile a small
    > change?
    >
    > > and the start/stop time for javac....

    >
    > The clear solution here is to reduce the number of times javac starts
    > and stops. If you have to compile a single source file at a time, then
    > you can't really do anything here. However, if you have the ability to
    > generate a list of files that need recompiled, javac can accept lists
    > of files:
    >
    >  http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/tooldocs/windows/javac.html


    I'm sorry, the correct link is:

    http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/technotes/tools/windows/javac.html

    Jason

    > And you can eliminate start/stop overhead by generating the list first
    > then running javac only once.
    >
    > > part of
    > > the issue (and there is no progrmatic way around this I can think of)
    > > is if class Y depends on X and X was recompiled then Y is also
    > > recompiled (make and all it's variants also do this and do a much
    > > worse job then cook does at it)

    >
    > There is no good programmatic way around this, you are correct. The
    > compiler would have to track information about what parts of X were
    > relevant to Y, then analyze your code changes to determine if any of
    > those relevant parts had changed, and only recompile Y if they have.
    > This is not trivial, and javac does not do it. Note, however, that
    > certain design techniques can significantly reduce interdependency
    > between classes; e.g. copious use of interfaces, more specific classes
    > (e.g. if Y depends on one part of X that is frequently changing, and Z
    > depends on another part of X, perhaps it is more appropriate to split
    > X into two more specific classes), anything that increases the
    > modularity and isolation of your code will help reduce dependencies.
    >
    > Jason
    JC, Jan 2, 2009
    #14
  15. On Jan 2, 1:28 pm, JC <> wrote:
    > On Jan 2, 6:11 am, "Aryeh M. Friedman" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Jan 2, 6:07 am, RedGrittyBrick <>
    > > wrote:

    >
    > > > Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:
    > > > > On Jan 2, 5:33 am, Andrew Thompson <> wrote:
    > > > >> On Jan 2, 5:05 pm, "Aryeh M. Friedman" <>
    > > > >> wrote:

    >
    > > > >>> I have a very large project that would take to long ...
    > > > >> Idea.  Get a faster box or be more patient.

    >
    > > > >> --
    > > > >> Andrew Thompsonhttp://pscode.org/

    >
    > > > > Not to bragging but quad core running at 2.58 GHz and 4 GB of RAM with
    > > > > a sata 300 drive should be enough... and as far as patience goes I
    > > > > think 5 mins to recompile for a 1 one line change is insane
    > > > > (exspecially when we do this on a quite regular basis [say 20 times an
    > > > > hour])

    >
    > > > That does indeed sound insane. How can javac's speed be an issue? Do you
    > > > have a single .java file containing a titanic amount of code? Are you
    > > > asking javac to compile .java files that don't need compiling? (if so why?)

    >
    > > > Either you are doing something rather unusual or my knowledge of Java is
    > > > incomplete in some interesting way - please enlighten me.

    >
    > > > --
    > > > RGB

    >
    > > About 80% of that time is taken up by the import scanner (needs to
    > > read about 5,000 files)

    >
    > What is the "import scanner"? Can you not run it if imports haven't
    > changed, or do you have to run it every time you compile a small
    > change?
    >
    > > and the start/stop time for javac....

    >
    > The clear solution here is to reduce the number of times javac starts
    > and stops. If you have to compile a single source file at a time, then
    > you can't really do anything here. However, if you have the ability to
    > generate a list of files that need recompiled, javac can accept lists
    > of files:
    >
    >  http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/tooldocs/windows/javac.html
    >
    > And you can eliminate start/stop overhead by generating the list first
    > then running javac only once.
    >
    > > part of
    > > the issue (and there is no progrmatic way around this I can think of)
    > > is if class Y depends on X and X was recompiled then Y is also
    > > recompiled (make and all it's variants also do this and do a much
    > > worse job then cook does at it)

    >
    > There is no good programmatic way around this, you are correct. The
    > compiler would have to track information about what parts of X were
    > relevant to Y, then analyze your code changes to determine if any of
    > those relevant parts had changed, and only recompile Y if they have.
    > This is not trivial, and javac does not do it. Note, however, that
    > certain design techniques can significantly reduce interdependency
    > between classes; e.g. copious use of interfaces, more specific classes
    > (e.g. if Y depends on one part of X that is frequently changing, and Z
    > depends on another part of X, perhaps it is more appropriate to split
    > X into two more specific classes), anything that increases the
    > modularity and isolation of your code will help reduce dependencies.
    >
    > Jason


    I did this last night and it cut the time in half but still too slow
    (namely I rewrote the import scanner to be a shell script instead of a
    java program):
    #!/bin/tcsh

    foreach i (`grep '^import' $1|grep -v '[*];$'|grep -v '^import java'|
    cut -f2 -d' '|cut -f1 -d';'|tr '.' '/'`)
    echo src/$i.java
    end

    exit 0

    I also rewrote the cookbook (the cook equiv of a makefile) as a
    prototype (still needs much more logic about compiling non-Java and
    other jugglings) as:

    manifest = [collect find src -name "*.java" -print];

    all: [fromto src/%0%1.java obj/%0%1.class [match_mask %0%1.java
    [manifest]]]
    {
    echo ISU all built;
    }

    obj/%0%1.class: src/%0%1.java
    set mkdir
    {
    echo Compiling src/%0%1.java;

    javac -d obj -sourcepath src [resolve src/%0%1.java];
    }

    Note: I will be placing a call to the above script in to this later
    and expect an other 5 to 10% increase is speed. But the overall
    issue still remains
    Aryeh M. Friedman, Jan 2, 2009
    #15
  16. Aryeh M. Friedman

    Lew Guest

    Knute Johnson wrote:
    > It sounds like you should have chunked this job up into some libraries.
    >   I read below that it has 5000 files.  Assuming the files are of some
    > reasonable size that means the program is probably well over a million
    > lines of code.  That's a lot of code for anybody for one program.


    I've been on Java projects that large. Having such a project all in
    one compile is a mistake; don't blame the compiler.

    Knute is right - break the project up into libraries and your problem
    will go away. That's what the projects did where I worked. I can
    rebuild code in a minute or so on a much weaker workstation than the
    OP described.

    This is more than just a compilation issue. In a monolithic structure
    such as the OP implies they have, testing is nigh impossible.
    Everything depends on everything. How can one ever do effective
    regression testing on changes?

    By separating the program into independent modules, the state space
    adds rather than multiplies as project size grows. For example, if
    the project has four parts, A, B, C and D, with respectively 3, 4, 5
    and 7 states, the monolithic approach has to test and verify 3 * 4 * 5
    * 7 = 420 states. Separation of the project into four libraries means
    it only has 3 + 4 + 5 + 7 = 19 states to test and verify.

    The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our compilers but ourselves.

    --
    Lew
    Lew, Jan 2, 2009
    #16
  17. Aryeh M. Friedman

    Tom Anderson Guest

    On Fri, 2 Jan 2009, Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:

    > On Jan 2, 6:07 am, RedGrittyBrick <>
    > wrote:
    >> Aryeh M. Friedman wrote:
    >>> On Jan 2, 5:33 am, Andrew Thompson <> wrote:
    >>>> On Jan 2, 5:05 pm, "Aryeh M. Friedman" <>
    >>>> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> I have a very large project that would take to long ...
    >>>> Idea.  Get a faster box or be more patient.
    >>>
    >>> Not to bragging but quad core running at 2.58 GHz and 4 GB of RAM with
    >>> a sata 300 drive should be enough... and as far as patience goes I
    >>> think 5 mins to recompile for a 1 one line change is insane
    >>> (exspecially when we do this on a quite regular basis [say 20 times an
    >>> hour])

    >>
    >> That does indeed sound insane. How can javac's speed be an issue? Do you
    >> have a single .java file containing a titanic amount of code? Are you
    >> asking javac to compile .java files that don't need compiling? (if so why?)
    >>
    >> Either you are doing something rather unusual or my knowledge of Java is
    >> incomplete in some interesting way - please enlighten me.

    >
    > About 80% of that time is taken up by the import scanner (needs to read
    > about 5,000 files) and the start/stop time for javac.... part of the
    > issue (and there is no progrmatic way around this I can think of) is if
    > class Y depends on X and X was recompiled then Y is also recompiled
    > (make and all it's variants also do this and do a much worse job then
    > cook does at it)


    We had a discussion about this a while ago. The conclusion was that this
    was a fairly hard problem.

    Idea number one would be to ditch your custom framework, and use Eclipse
    JDT:

    http://www.eclipse.org/jdt/core/index.php

    That's an incremental compiler - it does all the dependency tracking and
    recompilation itself. It does a minimal amount of work, and is thoroughly
    tested.

    Idea number two would be to (a) cache the results of your import scans, so
    you don't need to do them afresh each time (checking the timestamp of the
    source file against that of the cache to see if it does need redoing, of
    course) and (b) store the cache in such a way that you can quickly look up
    dependents of source files that have changed (eg by keeping two files per
    source file - one listing files it depends on, and one listing files which
    depend on it; when you recompile a file, you recompute the dependencies,
    and use any differences between the fresh list and the list in the file to
    drive changes to the depended-on-by lists of the other files - does that
    make sense?).

    tom

    --
    Scheme is simple and elegant *if you're a computer*.
    Tom Anderson, Jan 2, 2009
    #17
  18. On 2-1-2009 11:53, Andrew Thompson wrote:
    > While you are 'not bragging' please don't forget
    > to trim sigs. from replies. Not all of us have
    > broadband-on-demand. TIA.
    >
    > --
    > Andrew Thompson
    > http://pscode.org/


    Please use the proper sig block separator: "-- ", i.e. dash dash space
    (followed by a new line).
    --
    Regards,

    Roland
    Roland de Ruiter, Jan 3, 2009
    #18
  19. On Jan 3, 9:47 pm, Roland de Ruiter <>
    wrote:
    >...
    > Please use the proper sig block separator: "-- ", i.e. dash dash space
    > (followed by a new line).


    Please realize that *no* poster from GG
    can use the correct sig. delimiter, since
    the GG WITUN chews up the trailing ' '
    from '-- '.

    <suggestion>
    Deal with it, or block the offending posters
    and stop whining.
    </suggestion>

    --
    Andrew Thompson
    http://pscode.org/
    Andrew Thompson, Jan 3, 2009
    #19
  20. On Jan 3, 11:16 pm, "Peter Duniho" <>
    wrote:
    ....
    > By the way, no one is forced to use the travesty that is the Google Groups  
    > Usenet portal.  


    Great! What do you suggest for someone
    posting from an internet cafe, or the local
    library, who does not have the right nor
    ability to install a news client, nor hunt
    around for free providers of usenet archives?

    JavaKB? Tried it, as many problems as the
    GG WITUN.

    (Some of you people have it too lucky - force
    you to use someone else's computer through a
    low bandwidth modem and I reckon it would wipe
    that silly grin off your face.)

    --
    Andrew Thompson
    http://pscode.org/
    Andrew Thompson, Jan 3, 2009
    #20
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