Steve Jobs Dismisses Java As "Heavyweight" in an Age of LightweightComputing

Discussion in 'Java' started by www, Feb 12, 2007.

  1. www

    www Guest

    "These are curious times just now for Java. In one and the same month,
    Steve Jobs stands up, and declares – referring to language support on
    the new Apple iPhone – “Java’s not worth building in. Nobody uses Java
    anymore. It’s this big heavyweight ball and chain.” And in the same
    month a company like Backbase, whose AJAX JSF Edition is aimed at “Java
    developers who want to leverage the JSF standard by creating a next
    generation rich component-based AJAX presentation tier,” wins a
    'Technology of the Year Award 2007' in the category 'AJAX Toolkits.'"

    Full story:
    http://java.sys-con.com/read/331264.htm
    www, Feb 12, 2007
    #1
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  2. Re: Steve Jobs Dismisses Java As "Heavyweight" in an Age of Lightweight Computing

    On Feb 13, 5:41 am, www <> wrote:

    Sub: Steve Jobs Dismisses Java ..

    Well good for him. Go tell someone
    that cares* what Steve thinks.

    * e.g. comp.lang.java.advocacy

    Andrew T.
    Andrew Thompson, Feb 12, 2007
    #2
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  3. www

    nukleus Guest

    In article <eqqcch$3av$>, www <> wrote:
    >"These are curious times just now for Java. In one and the same month,
    >Steve Jobs stands up, and declares, referring to language support on
    >the new Apple iPhone. "Java’s not worth building in. Nobody uses Java
    >anymore. It’s this big heavyweight ball and chain."


    And he is not a fool, by ANY means.
    He knows what he is talking about.

    > And in the same
    >month a company like Backbase, whose AJAX JSF Edition is aimed at Java
    >developers who want to leverage the JSF standard by creating a next
    >generation rich component-based AJAX presentation tier, wins a
    >'Technology of the Year Award 2007' in the category 'AJAX Toolkits.'"


    Well...

    >Full story:
    >http://java.sys-con.com/read/331264.htm
    nukleus, Feb 12, 2007
    #3
  4. www

    Richter~9.6 Guest

    Re: Steve Jobs Dismisses Java As "Heavyweight" in an Age of Lightweight Computing

    www wrote:
    > "These are curious times just now for Java. In one and the same month,
    > Steve Jobs stands up, and declares - referring to language support on
    > the new Apple iPhone - "Java's not worth building in. Nobody uses Java
    > anymore. It's this big heavyweight ball and chain."


    I can see where he is coming from.... who uses Java Applets in web
    pages anymore? It's mostly Flash and AJAX with the odd Java Applet to
    do the heavy stuff.

    > And in the same
    > month a company like Backbase, whose AJAX JSF Edition is aimed at "Java
    > developers who want to leverage the JSF standard by creating a next
    > generation rich component-based AJAX presentation tier," wins a
    > 'Technology of the Year Award 2007' in the category 'AJAX Toolkits.'"
    >
    > Full story:
    > http://java.sys-con.com/read/331264.htm
    Richter~9.6, Feb 12, 2007
    #4
  5. www wrote:
    > "These are curious times just now for Java. In one and the same month,
    > Steve Jobs stands up, and declares – referring to language support on
    > the new Apple iPhone – “Java’s not worth building in. Nobody uses Java
    > anymore. It’s this big heavyweight ball and chain.”


    Java is not much used in desktop apps and web client side.

    But Java is heavily used in web server side *and* (which
    is the interesting part) in mobile phones !

    Arne
    =?windows-1252?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=, Feb 13, 2007
    #5
  6. Arne Vajhøj schrieb:
    > www wrote:
    >> "These are curious times just now for Java. In one and the same month,
    >> Steve Jobs stands up, and declares – referring to language support on
    >> the new Apple iPhone – “Java’s not worth building in. Nobody uses Java
    >> anymore. It’s this big heavyweight ball and chain.”

    >
    > Java is not much used in desktop apps and web client side.


    Hmm, obviously there are different opinions.

    Hans Muller [1] quotes a study of Evan Data Corporation:

    "Java Swing with 47% use, has surpassed WinForms as the dominant GUI
    development toolkit, an increase of 27% since fall 2004."

    Bye
    Michael

    [1]
    <http://weblogs.java.net/blog/hansmuller/archive/2005/10/official_swing.html>
    Michael Rauscher, Feb 13, 2007
    #6
  7. Re: Steve Jobs Dismisses Java As "Heavyweight" in an Age of Lightweight Computing

    On Feb 14, 1:16 am, Michael Rauscher <> wrote:
    > Arne Vajhøj schrieb:
    >
    > > www wrote:
    > >> "These are curious times just now for Java. In one and the same month,
    > >> Steve Jobs stands up, and declares - referring to language support on
    > >> the new Apple iPhone - "Java's not worth building in. Nobody uses Java
    > >> anymore. It's this big heavyweight ball and chain."

    >
    > > Java is not much used in desktop apps and web client side.

    >
    > Hmm, obviously there are different opinions.
    >
    > Hans Muller [1] quotes a study of Evan Data Corporation:
    >
    > "Java Swing with 47% use, has surpassed WinForms as the dominant GUI
    > development toolkit, an increase of 27% since fall 2004."


    More 'lies, damn lies, &' statistics.
    19 of 20 jobs in a (OK - my) recent look
    over the Job site adds were weighted
    toward servlets and JSP, rather than
    Swing.

    So.. that leaves us with 47% of the 5%
    of app. development that is still targeted
    at the desktop?

    Andrew T.
    Andrew Thompson, Feb 13, 2007
    #7
  8. Andrew Thompson wrote:
    > On Feb 14, 1:16 am, Michael Rauscher <> wrote:
    >> "Java Swing with 47% use, has surpassed WinForms as the dominant GUI
    >> development toolkit, an increase of 27% since fall 2004."

    >
    > More 'lies, damn lies, &' statistics.
    > 19 of 20 jobs in a (OK - my) recent look
    > over the Job site adds were weighted
    > toward servlets and JSP, rather than
    > Swing.
    >
    > So.. that leaves us with 47% of the 5%
    > of app. development that is still targeted
    > at the desktop?


    Perhaps, but do you think that the rich client market is as less as 5
    percent?

    To my recent look I use much more applications that target the desktop ;)

    Bye
    Michael
    Michael Rauscher, Feb 13, 2007
    #8
  9. Re: Steve Jobs Dismisses Java As "Heavyweight" in an Age of Lightweight Computing

    On Feb 14, 4:58 am, Michael Rauscher <> wrote:
    > Andrew Thompson wrote:
    > > On Feb 14, 1:16 am, Michael Rauscher <> wrote:
    > >> "Java Swing with 47% use, has surpassed WinForms as the dominant GUI
    > >> development toolkit, an increase of 27% since fall 2004."

    >
    > > More 'lies, damn lies, &' statistics.
    > > 19 of 20 jobs in a (OK - my) recent look
    > > over the Job site adds were weighted
    > > toward servlets and JSP, rather than
    > > Swing.

    >
    > > So.. that leaves us with 47% of the 5%
    > > of app. development that is still targeted
    > > at the desktop?

    >
    > Perhaps, but do you think that the rich client market is as less as 5
    > percent?


    Don't know. Note, amongst many other
    caveat's, that the quoted figures were
    for 'current development', and therefore
    ignored existing software that was rich
    client.

    > To my recent look I use much more
    > applications that target the desktop ;)


    I am not quite clear, does that mean you
    are?
    - deploying more to the desktop (for
    other users)
    - using more rich client/desktop based
    applications than web apps., for your
    own purposes
    - both

    In any case, I am in the 'both' category.

    I deploy using web start, and would
    probably offer a web start based
    rich client as a front end to web
    applications. If it was vital, I
    might also add a pure HTML web
    based front end, but only if
    'every last client must be supported'.

    And as a user, with my bandwidth,
    web-apps (using Ajax and such) can
    be quite painful.

    I would far prefer to install a web
    start based app. once, assuming a
    download time of ten minutes or less,
    in preference to using a web-app.
    that requires 2-3 seconds to refresh
    each page.

    Andrew T.
    Andrew Thompson, Feb 13, 2007
    #9
  10. Michael Rauscher wrote:
    > Arne Vajhøj schrieb:
    >> www wrote:
    >>> "These are curious times just now for Java. In one and the same
    >>> month, Steve Jobs stands up, and declares – referring to language
    >>> support on the new Apple iPhone – “Java’s not worth building in.
    >>> Nobody uses Java anymore. It’s this big heavyweight ball and chain.”

    >>
    >> Java is not much used in desktop apps and web client side.

    >
    > Hmm, obviously there are different opinions.
    >
    > Hans Muller [1] quotes a study of Evan Data Corporation:
    >
    > "Java Swing with 47% use, has surpassed WinForms as the dominant GUI
    > development toolkit, an increase of 27% since fall 2004."


    Hm.

    I do not see many of all these Swing apps.

    Arne
    =?windows-1252?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=, Feb 14, 2007
    #10
  11. Andrew Thompson schrieb:
    > On Feb 14, 4:58 am, Michael Rauscher <> wrote:
    >> Andrew Thompson wrote:
    >>> On Feb 14, 1:16 am, Michael Rauscher <> wrote:
    >>>> "Java Swing with 47% use, has surpassed WinForms as the dominant GUI
    >>>> development toolkit, an increase of 27% since fall 2004."
    >>> More 'lies, damn lies, &' statistics.
    >>> 19 of 20 jobs in a (OK - my) recent look
    >>> over the Job site adds were weighted
    >>> toward servlets and JSP, rather than
    >>> Swing.
    >>> So.. that leaves us with 47% of the 5%
    >>> of app. development that is still targeted
    >>> at the desktop?

    >> Perhaps, but do you think that the rich client market is as less as 5
    >> percent?

    >
    > Don't know. Note, amongst many other
    > caveat's, that the quoted figures were
    > for 'current development', and therefore
    > ignored existing software that was rich
    > client.


    OK. Let me reformulate my position: I believe in the return of the rich
    client even though not much of the current development doesn't target
    the desktop.

    >
    >> To my recent look I use much more
    >> applications that target the desktop ;)

    >

    ....
    > I would far prefer to install a web
    > start based app. once, assuming a
    > download time of ten minutes or less,
    > in preference to using a web-app.
    > that requires 2-3 seconds to refresh
    > each page.


    That's what I mean. The web wasn't made for applications. Of course,
    there are some that are predestinated for being implemented as web-apps
    (Pet shops e.g. :)). And I can imagine some situations where I want a
    web-app.

    But what's (at least I) called a web-app today is a workaround. The AJAX
    approach for example is something that wouldn't be needed if there was a
    technology which overcomes the limitations of HTTP.

    As long as developers need to use three millions of different
    technologies to implement workaround-based applications, I'm in doubt
    that this kind of development will last for long.

    Web starting (Java) applications could be a solution...

    Bye
    Michael
    Michael Rauscher, Feb 14, 2007
    #11
  12. Re: Steve Jobs Dismisses Java As "Heavyweight" in an Age of Lightweight Computing

    On Feb 14, 7:33 pm, Michael Rauscher <> wrote:
    > Andrew Thompson schrieb:

    ...
    > > On Feb 14, 4:58 am, Michael Rauscher <> wrote:
    > >> Andrew Thompson wrote:
    > >>> On Feb 14, 1:16 am, Michael Rauscher <> wrote:
    > >>>> "Java Swing with 47% use, has surpassed WinForms as the dominant GUI
    > >>>> development toolkit, an increase of 27% since fall 2004."
    > >>> More 'lies, damn lies, &' statistics.
    > >>> 19 of 20 jobs in a (OK - my) recent look
    > >>> over the Job site adds were weighted
    > >>> toward servlets and JSP, rather than
    > >>> Swing.
    > >>> So.. that leaves us with 47% of the 5%
    > >>> of app. development that is still targeted
    > >>> at the desktop?
    > >> Perhaps, but do you think that the rich client market is as less as 5
    > >> percent?

    >
    > > Don't know. Note, amongst many other
    > > caveat's, that the quoted figures were
    > > for 'current development', and therefore
    > > ignored existing software that was rich
    > > client.

    >
    > OK. Let me reformulate my position: I believe in the return of the rich
    > client


    OK. Yes, I both understand and agree
    with that.

    As browsers change, newer challenges
    (both with page formatting* and script
    compatibility) crop up. It is far
    easier to control the quality of the
    GUI in a desktop app.

    Ultimately, there is less overhead
    to objects transferred client<->server
    in a Swing app., than HTML, so it is
    quicker, and there are more options
    for tranpsorting the data, so compression
    of the data itself is much easier and
    more dependable.

    I think the concentration on browser
    based apps. will fade.

    * I say that as I look at GG's WITUN**,
    which as a combination of its HTML and
    JS, and my resizing the browser and a
    slow connection, has compacted the
    'message tree' and messages area to a
    small rectangle on the upper left of
    the browser*** display area.

    ** WITUN - Web-interface to Usenet
    (It is not any sort of official acronym,
    but I get sick of typing that)
    *** OK - not so much 'browser' as
    'OS component'.

    Oh, and note that I have reasons for
    using a WITUN, rather than a dedicated
    (rich client) news client - reasons not
    relevant to this thread.

    Andrew T.
    Andrew Thompson, Feb 14, 2007
    #12
  13. www

    Lew Guest

    Michael Rauscher wrote:
    > But what's (at least I) called a web-app today is a workaround.
    > The AJAX approach for example is something that wouldn't be needed
    > if there was a technology which overcomes the limitations of HTTP.


    These are really not limitations of HTTP but of the problems HTTP solves,
    namely uncertain transmission latency or even pathways, and large values for
    transmission times. I would be interested in how you would do it differently
    from HTTP.

    - Lew
    Lew, Feb 14, 2007
    #13
  14. www

    Alex Hunsley Guest

    www wrote:
    > "These are curious times just now for Java. In one and the same month,
    > Steve Jobs stands up, and declares – referring to language support on
    > the new Apple iPhone – “Java’s not worth building in. Nobody uses Java
    > anymore.


    Java has a heavy presence on the server side at least. I have no idea
    what Jobs is smoking.

    > It’s this big heavyweight ball and chain.”
    > And in the same
    > month a company like Backbase, whose AJAX JSF Edition is aimed at “Java
    > developers who want to leverage the JSF standard by creating a next
    > generation rich component-based AJAX presentation tier,” wins a
    > 'Technology of the Year Award 2007' in the category 'AJAX Toolkits.'"
    >
    > Full story:
    > http://java.sys-con.com/read/331264.htm
    Alex Hunsley, Feb 15, 2007
    #14
  15. Lew wrote:
    > Michael Rauscher wrote:
    >> But what's (at least I) called a web-app today is a workaround. The
    >> AJAX approach for example is something that wouldn't be needed if
    >> there was a technology which overcomes the limitations of HTTP.

    >
    > These are really not limitations of HTTP but of the problems HTTP
    > solves, namely uncertain transmission latency or even pathways, and
    > large values for transmission times. I would be interested in how you
    > would do it differently from HTTP.


    One very big limitation in the HTTP protocol is that
    it is always request from client and response from server.

    Client polling is a very poor substitute for notification
    by server.

    Arne
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=, Feb 15, 2007
    #15
  16. www

    Ipanema Guest

    Re: Steve Jobs Dismisses Java As "Heavyweight" in an Age of Lightweight Computing

    It is defiantly weird times you just have to take a look on Google's
    GWT(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
    Google_Web_Toolkit#Google_Web_Toolkit) and Visual WebGui (http://
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_WebGui) to see the weirdness. I think the
    weirdness is not Java vs .NET but rather having to program
    applications using JavaScript,HTML and request/response. That is why
    frameworks like GWT and VWG are here.

    Historically applets did not provide a good solution because the were
    too heavy and lets face it enterprise desktop applications are almost
    extinct. I was looking for a job lately hoping to find a nice WinForms/
    Swing position but nada... all web.. go figure...

    Ramanjit
    Ipanema, Feb 15, 2007
    #16
  17. Re: Steve Jobs Dismisses Java As "Heavyweight" in an Age of Lightweight Computing

    On Feb 15, 4:31 pm, "Ipanema" <> wrote:
    > It is defiantly weird times ..


    I suspect you mean 'definitely' weird times?

    (defiant/definite are separate words, meaning
    very different things)
    <http://www.google.com/search?q=definition+defiant>
    <http://www.google.com/search?q=definition+definite>

    Andrew T.
    Andrew Thompson, Feb 15, 2007
    #17
  18. www

    Oliver Wong Guest

    Re: Steve Jobs Dismisses Java As "Heavyweight" in an Age of Lightweight Computing

    "Ipanema" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > I was looking for a job lately hoping to find a nice WinForms/
    > Swing position but nada... all web.. go figure...


    I thought one of the compelling arguments for .NET (against Java, for
    example) was that the WinForm and web API were drop in identical, so your
    code would work with either one via polymorphism. Is this not the case?

    - Oliver
    Oliver Wong, Feb 21, 2007
    #18
  19. Oliver Wong wrote:
    > "Ipanema" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> I was looking for a job lately hoping to find a nice WinForms/
    >> Swing position but nada... all web.. go figure...

    >
    > I thought one of the compelling arguments for .NET (against Java, for
    > example) was that the WinForm and web API were drop in identical, so your
    > code would work with either one via polymorphism. Is this not the case?


    No. That is not the case.

    They have some conceptual similarities. But very far from
    polymorphic drop in.

    Arne
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=, Feb 22, 2007
    #19
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