Steve Jobs Dismisses Java As "Heavyweight" in an Age of LightweightComputing

W

www

"These are curious times just now for Java. In one and the same month,
Steve Jobs stands up, and declares – referring to language support on
the new Apple iPhone – “Java’s not worth building in. Nobody uses Java
anymore. It’s this big heavyweight ball and chain.” And in the same
month a company like Backbase, whose AJAX JSF Edition is aimed at “Java
developers who want to leverage the JSF standard by creating a next
generation rich component-based AJAX presentation tier,” wins a
'Technology of the Year Award 2007' in the category 'AJAX Toolkits.'"

Full story:
http://java.sys-con.com/read/331264.htm
 
A

Andrew Thompson

Sub: Steve Jobs Dismisses Java ..

Well good for him. Go tell someone
that cares* what Steve thinks.

* e.g. comp.lang.java.advocacy

Andrew T.
 
N

nukleus

"These are curious times just now for Java. In one and the same month,
Steve Jobs stands up, and declares, referring to language support on
the new Apple iPhone. "Java’s not worth building in. Nobody uses Java
anymore. It’s this big heavyweight ball and chain."
Click to expand...

And he is not a fool, by ANY means.
He knows what he is talking about.
 
R

Richter~9.6

www said:
"These are curious times just now for Java. In one and the same month,
Steve Jobs stands up, and declares - referring to language support on
the new Apple iPhone - "Java's not worth building in. Nobody uses Java
anymore. It's this big heavyweight ball and chain."
Click to expand...

I can see where he is coming from.... who uses Java Applets in web
pages anymore? It's mostly Flash and AJAX with the odd Java Applet to
do the heavy stuff.
 
?

=?windows-1252?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=

www said:
"These are curious times just now for Java. In one and the same month,
Steve Jobs stands up, and declares – referring to language support on
the new Apple iPhone – “Java’s not worth building in. Nobody uses Java
anymore. It’s this big heavyweight ball and chain.”
Click to expand...

Java is not much used in desktop apps and web client side.

But Java is heavily used in web server side *and* (which
is the interesting part) in mobile phones !

Arne
 
A

Andrew Thompson

Java is not much used in desktop apps and web client side.
Click to expand...

Hmm, obviously there are different opinions.

Hans Muller [1] quotes a study of Evan Data Corporation:

"Java Swing with 47% use, has surpassed WinForms as the dominant GUI
development toolkit, an increase of 27% since fall 2004."
Click to expand...

More 'lies, damn lies, &' statistics.
19 of 20 jobs in a (OK - my) recent look
over the Job site adds were weighted
toward servlets and JSP, rather than
Swing.

So.. that leaves us with 47% of the 5%
of app. development that is still targeted
at the desktop?

Andrew T.
 
M

Michael Rauscher

Andrew said:
More 'lies, damn lies, &' statistics.
19 of 20 jobs in a (OK - my) recent look
over the Job site adds were weighted
toward servlets and JSP, rather than
Swing.

So.. that leaves us with 47% of the 5%
of app. development that is still targeted
at the desktop?
Click to expand...

Perhaps, but do you think that the rich client market is as less as 5
percent?

To my recent look I use much more applications that target the desktop ;)

Bye
Michael
 
A

Andrew Thompson

Perhaps, but do you think that the rich client market is as less as 5
percent?
Click to expand...

Don't know. Note, amongst many other
caveat's, that the quoted figures were
for 'current development', and therefore
ignored existing software that was rich
client.
To my recent look I use much more
applications that target the desktop ;)
Click to expand...

I am not quite clear, does that mean you
are?
- deploying more to the desktop (for
other users)
- using more rich client/desktop based
applications than web apps., for your
own purposes
- both

In any case, I am in the 'both' category.

I deploy using web start, and would
probably offer a web start based
rich client as a front end to web
applications. If it was vital, I
might also add a pure HTML web
based front end, but only if
'every last client must be supported'.

And as a user, with my bandwidth,
web-apps (using Ajax and such) can
be quite painful.

I would far prefer to install a web
start based app. once, assuming a
download time of ten minutes or less,
in preference to using a web-app.
that requires 2-3 seconds to refresh
each page.

Andrew T.
 
?

=?windows-1252?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=

Michael said:
Arne said:
Java is not much used in desktop apps and web client side.
Click to expand...

Hmm, obviously there are different opinions.

Hans Muller [1] quotes a study of Evan Data Corporation:

"Java Swing with 47% use, has surpassed WinForms as the dominant GUI
development toolkit, an increase of 27% since fall 2004."
Click to expand...

Hm.

I do not see many of all these Swing apps.

Arne
 
M

Michael Rauscher

Andrew said:
Don't know. Note, amongst many other
caveat's, that the quoted figures were
for 'current development', and therefore
ignored existing software that was rich
client.
Click to expand...

OK. Let me reformulate my position: I believe in the return of the rich
client even though not much of the current development doesn't target
the desktop.
....
I would far prefer to install a web
start based app. once, assuming a
download time of ten minutes or less,
in preference to using a web-app.
that requires 2-3 seconds to refresh
each page.
Click to expand...

That's what I mean. The web wasn't made for applications. Of course,
there are some that are predestinated for being implemented as web-apps
(Pet shops e.g. :)). And I can imagine some situations where I want a
web-app.

But what's (at least I) called a web-app today is a workaround. The AJAX
approach for example is something that wouldn't be needed if there was a
technology which overcomes the limitations of HTTP.

As long as developers need to use three millions of different
technologies to implement workaround-based applications, I'm in doubt
that this kind of development will last for long.

Web starting (Java) applications could be a solution...

Bye
Michael
 
A

Andrew Thompson

Andrew Thompson schrieb: ...


OK. Let me reformulate my position: I believe in the return of the rich
client
Click to expand...

OK. Yes, I both understand and agree
with that.

As browsers change, newer challenges
(both with page formatting* and script
compatibility) crop up. It is far
easier to control the quality of the
GUI in a desktop app.

Ultimately, there is less overhead
to objects transferred client<->server
in a Swing app., than HTML, so it is
quicker, and there are more options
for tranpsorting the data, so compression
of the data itself is much easier and
more dependable.

I think the concentration on browser
based apps. will fade.

* I say that as I look at GG's WITUN**,
which as a combination of its HTML and
JS, and my resizing the browser and a
slow connection, has compacted the
'message tree' and messages area to a
small rectangle on the upper left of
the browser*** display area.

** WITUN - Web-interface to Usenet
(It is not any sort of official acronym,
but I get sick of typing that)
*** OK - not so much 'browser' as
'OS component'.

Oh, and note that I have reasons for
using a WITUN, rather than a dedicated
(rich client) news client - reasons not
relevant to this thread.

Andrew T.
 
L

Lew

Michael said:
But what's (at least I) called a web-app today is a workaround.
The AJAX approach for example is something that wouldn't be needed
if there was a technology which overcomes the limitations of HTTP.
Click to expand...

These are really not limitations of HTTP but of the problems HTTP solves,
namely uncertain transmission latency or even pathways, and large values for
transmission times. I would be interested in how you would do it differently
from HTTP.

- Lew
 
A

Alex Hunsley

www said:
"These are curious times just now for Java. In one and the same month,
Steve Jobs stands up, and declares – referring to language support on
the new Apple iPhone – “Java’s not worth building in. Nobody uses Java
anymore.
Click to expand...

Java has a heavy presence on the server side at least. I have no idea
what Jobs is smoking.
 
?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=

Lew said:
These are really not limitations of HTTP but of the problems HTTP
solves, namely uncertain transmission latency or even pathways, and
large values for transmission times. I would be interested in how you
would do it differently from HTTP.
Click to expand...

One very big limitation in the HTTP protocol is that
it is always request from client and response from server.

Client polling is a very poor substitute for notification
by server.

Arne
 
I

Ipanema

It is defiantly weird times you just have to take a look on Google's
GWT(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Google_Web_Toolkit#Google_Web_Toolkit) and Visual WebGui (http://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_WebGui) to see the weirdness. I think the
weirdness is not Java vs .NET but rather having to program
applications using JavaScript,HTML and request/response. That is why
frameworks like GWT and VWG are here.

Historically applets did not provide a good solution because the were
too heavy and lets face it enterprise desktop applications are almost
extinct. I was looking for a job lately hoping to find a nice WinForms/
Swing position but nada... all web.. go figure...

Ramanjit
 
O

Oliver Wong

Ipanema said:
I was looking for a job lately hoping to find a nice WinForms/
Swing position but nada... all web.. go figure...
Click to expand...

I thought one of the compelling arguments for .NET (against Java, for
example) was that the WinForm and web API were drop in identical, so your
code would work with either one via polymorphism. Is this not the case?

- Oliver
 
?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=

Oliver said:
I thought one of the compelling arguments for .NET (against Java, for
example) was that the WinForm and web API were drop in identical, so your
code would work with either one via polymorphism. Is this not the case?
Click to expand...

No. That is not the case.

They have some conceptual similarities. But very far from
polymorphic drop in.

Arne
 

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